"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Some people here can't hide their bias against the manga. The manga is far from perfect and we can spend some time talking about it's flaws and weaknesses, but the way some people word their critiques and sometimes even create artificial problems, makes it clear they don't want to have a discussion and are into bashing mode.

One criticism I don't quite understand is Vegeta beating up Black in this chapter.
Vegeta is the second most important character in Super and is having it's first fight of the arc, against the main villain. A fight that is used to further show Black's development power wise(he needed SSJ to beat Trunks before) and how both characters view the situation. Together with more of Black's personality and his plans.
All taking us to a cliffhanger, which because we already know about it lacks any impact. If we didn't, I'm certain it wouldn't be something people didn't even cared to comment about.

So with all of the above, why is it a problem that almost a full chapter is dedicated to it? The fight isn't about "pleasing Vegeta fanboys" like some people like to reduce it to. It's used as a mechanism to further the story.

The problem isn't Vegeta beating up on Black. The problem is why is Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta able to beat up on Super Saiyan 1/2 Black when his base form outmatched Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, whose equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Unless this is explained next chapter, this makes no sense.

However, what kills the chapter for me, and the entire Future Trunks Saga in the manga so far, is what it did to Black. Black is a cowardly, smug snake in the manga. He keeps Trunks around to have someone to pound on, but he purposely ran away from anyone who could beat him. Which includes the Z-Fighters since he chose Trunks' timeline because they're long dead and he couldn't be bother to kill U7's Supreme Kai himself to get rid of Beerus, so he left it up to Future Dabura. While Black in the anime also avoided fighting the Gods of Destruction by killing the Kais, he also didn't keep Trunks around for his amusement. He tried to kill Trunks and was more than happy to leave Trunks trap in the past after destroying the Time Machine. And even when he did get overwhelmed, he remained calm about it and found a work around. If this was the Black we got to know for several months, he wouldn't have been as liked by the fandom since he runs into the standard'DBZ villain failings. Namely, smug when winning, whining when losing, and won't kill the heroes when they have the chance.

[LightBing]

The problem isn't Vegeta beating up on Black. The problem is why is Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta able to beat up on Super Saiyan 1/2 Black when his base form outmatched Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, whose equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Unless this is explained next chapter, this makes no sense.

However, what kills the chapter for me, and the entire Future Trunks Saga in the manga so far, is what it did to Black. Black is a cowardly, smug snake in the manga. He keeps Trunks around to have someone to pound on, but he purposely ran away from anyone who could beat him. Which includes the Z-Fighters since he chose Trunks' timeline because they're long dead and he couldn't be bother to kill U7's Supreme Kai himself to get rid of Beerus, so he left it up to Future Dabura. While Black in the anime also avoided fighting the Gods of Destruction by killing the Kais, he also didn't keep Trunks around for his amusement. He tried to kill Trunks and was more than happy to leave Trunks trap in the past after destroying the Time Machine. And even when he did get overwhelmed, he remained calm about it and found a work around. If this was the Black we got to know for several months, he wouldn't have been as liked by the fandom since he runs into the standard'DBZ villain failings. Namely, smug when winning, whining when losing, and won't kill the heroes when they have the chance.

There's that power-scaling problem, not denying it's a significant flaw. Like I previously said, I think it's Mutated SSJ2 and Toyotarõ did a poor job by not making it clear.

Regarding your're second point, Black is clearly different from one medium to the other. I do have to point out some ideas you missed.

Black purposely keep Trunks around for a reason, to make himself stronger which is important for his zero-human plan; not for his amusement. Compare it to the anime, where Black is portrayed as incompetent by letting Trunks get away several times and later Goku and Vegeta a few more.
If Black is a coward he's the same in both versions, since he ran to Trunks timeline in both versions. He didn't let Dabra kill the Kaioshin, in either version. Kaioshin just died in the battle.

In the manga Black was saved by Zamasu, while in the anime by plot armour. He wasn't ever behind for long due to getting stronger randomly. Which I would like to explain as Zenkais powered by a God, but there was never any explanation so it's nothing more than bad writing.

The anime Black is much more charming and charismatic than his manga version( the voice work is a major factor). I enjoyed the anime version much more than the manga one so far. This isn't enough to ruin the manga for me, not even close. It's nice to see the differences and try to enjoy the good in both versions.

At the end it's a matter of preference regarding the portrayal of the character.

[HeroR]

There's that power-scaling problem, not denying it's a significant flaw. Like I previously said, I think it's Mutated SSJ2 and Toyotarõ did a poor job by not making it clear.

Regarding your're second point, Black is clearly different from one medium to the other. I do have to point out some ideas you missed.

Black purposely keep Trunks around for a reason, to make himself stronger which is important for his zero-human plan; not for his amusement. Compare it to the anime, where Black is portrayed as incompetent by letting Trunks get away several times and later Goku and Vegeta a few more.
If Black is a coward he's the same in both versions, since he ran to Trunks timeline in both versions. He didn't let Dabra kill the Kaioshin, in either version. Kaioshin just died in the battle.

In the manga Black was saved by Zamasu, while in the anime by plot armour. He wasn't ever behind for long due to getting stronger randomly. Which I would like to explain as Zenkais powered by a God, but there was never any explanation so it's nothing more than bad writing.

The anime Black is much more charming and charismatic than his manga version( the voice work is a major factor). I enjoyed the anime version much more than the manga one so far. This isn't enough to ruin the manga for me, not even close. It's nice to see the differences and try to enjoy the good in both versions.

At the end it's a matter of preference regarding the portrayal of the character.

I know Black is different between the anime and the manga. I just wrote the reasons why I hate Toyotarõ's version of the character.

- Black lets Trunks live to get stronger and his amusement. While he purposely avoided anyone who could challenged him, which the manga actually tells us by saying that part of the reason why Black went into Trunks' timeline is because he was trying to avoid Beerus and all the Z-Fighters since they long dead and Future Dabura killed U7's Supreme Kai for him. Black in the anime tried to kill Trunks when he got the chance. The reasons why Trunks is still alive is because he was saved by his allies and Trunks became a smarter fighter. He is also used to ducking and weaving from his years with the androids.

- Black in the anime went into Trunks' timeline because he wanted to punished Trunks for breaking the time taboo, which he went into details on in Episode 61. He didn't go there to avoid Beerus or to a place where Goku and Vegeta were long dead. He then killed all the Supreme Kais himself, while Black was cheering that Future Dabura did his dirty work because he didn't want to deal with Beerus. Also, in the anime, the U7's Supreme Kai didn't die in battle. Black killed him himself along with all the other Supreme Kais.

- Black wasn't saved by 'plot armor'. He saved himself by learning that Vegeta got stronger from his anger and used that to make himself stronger. It also isn't 'bad writing' since Black wasn't getting Zenkais, which is about Saiyans getting stronger from near death and healing. Toriyama actually said in an interview that Saiyans grow stronger the longer they fight and they can eventually turn the tables on their enemies if they're not careful, which isn't a Zenkai. Vegeta also reference Black's growth as unusual, so he wasn't growing like a normal Saiyan and Black himself said he was still getting used to Goku's body. So most of his power increase is him learning Goku's body along with the Saiyans' natural ability to grow stronger from battle. Granted, the anime could have explained it as such, but it didn't come out of nowhere.

- Vegeta beating up on Black as a Super Saiyan 2 isn't just a power scale issue. What it does it make Black look like a weakling despite all the build up about how strong he was. The anime worked around this by having Black fight in his base form and have him about even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku, while holding back. What the manga could have done is had Black fight Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta in his base form, like the anime. Toyotarõ's could have even have Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta being much stronger than base form Black for reasons. Then, Vegeta goes Blue, Black goes Super Saiyan 1/2 in an attempt to match it, and then get his ass kicked. It would show that while Black is powerful, he's no match for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan until he heals. Having Black overwhelmed by a golden Super Saiyan when he himself is a Super Saiyan completely undermines Black's power.

Black was a major reason why I loved the Future Trunks Saga. That along with the mystery of who he was, how he was created, and how was he connected to Zamasu. The manga took all the elements I loved and either removed them, changed them to something I don't like, and turned the entire mystery into an info dump. To be frank, there is nothing about the manga version of the Future Trunks Saga I like. Maybe the ending will be better, but overall, the Future Trunks Saga of the manga is just isn't good in my opinion.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

and it irks me to see the work get verbally stomped on by people who wouldn't know how to do a better job if you gave them an entire lifetime.

That's not how criticism works...

I'm not talking about legitimate criticisms, I've consistently made my opinions clear on this from the beginning. My problem is with people who throw around generalized non-statements about their personal bias that has nothing to do with the quality of the work, and projecting the resulting negativity on to a product that holds up well for what it is. If you've followed my position for the past few weeks, you should know my position on Toyotaro's manga and my many, many criticisms of it.

[DBZ Macky]

What if Future Trunks is actually stronger than Base Black but weaker than SS/2 Black in the Manga version?

[HeroR]

What if Future Trunks is actually stronger than Base Black but weaker than SS/2 Black in the Manga version?

Can't. We saw Super Saiyan 2 Trunks fight base form Black in Chapter 15. Although Trunks got some good shots in, he was clearly outmatched.

[KidGokuDB]

- Black in the anime went into Trunks' timeline because he wanted to punished Trunks for breaking the time taboo, which he went into details on in Episode 61. He didn't go there to avoid Beerus or to a place where Goku and Vegeta were long dead. He then killed all the Supreme Kais himself, while Black was cheering that Future Dabura did his dirty work because he didn't want to deal with Beerus. Also, in the anime, the U7's Supreme Kai didn't die in battle. Black killed him himself along with all the other Supreme Kais.

This makes no sense to me. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but how can Black punish Trunks for something like that if he looked like he had no idea about the time machine early on in the arc? Ugh, I dislike a lot of the time shenanigans.

[Boo Machine]

This makes no sense to me. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but how can Black punish Trunks for something like that if he looked like he had no idea about the time machine early on in the arc? I really dislike all the time shenanigans.

I don't think that it's ever really elaborated it on, but He might have been aware of the time travel because of the time ring it created, but not aware of how he traveled. It doesn't appear like any god is aware of the time machine even though the extra time ring should have been something they would have wanted to look into.

[HeroR]

This makes no sense to me. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but how can Black punish Trunks for something like that if he looked like he had no idea about the time machine early on in the arc? I really dislike all the time shenanigans.

I don't think that it's ever really elaborated it on, but He might have been aware of the time travel because of the time ring it created, but not aware of how he traveled. It doesn't appear like any god is aware of the time machine even though the extra time ring should have been something they would have wanted to look into.

Given how Black talked, he learned that it was Trunks that broke the time taboo and made the new Time Ring from Zuno since he knew Trunks saved Goku from the heart virus that was supposed to kill him. What he didn't know was what Trunks' Time Machine looked like.

[kinisking]

Ss2 Vegeta bashing on ssj2 black makes absolutely no sense. For that to be true, mutated ssj2 would have to be around 100 times stronger than ssj3 Goku. I just don't see that as a viable option. It's disappointing that blatant power scaling issues is now a Super problem and not just the anime's.

[Noah]

Why people still believe that Toyotaro follows the 100x and 400x multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 respectively? It's pretty much clear that he ignores it. I would even be impressed if he applies 50x SSJ's multiplier to the story, though

[kinisking]

Why people still believe that Toyotaro follows the 100x and 400x multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 respectively? It's pretty much clear that he ignores it. I would even be impressed if he applies 50x SSJ's multiplier to the story, though

Even something like being 10x stronger than goku would be pushing it

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Don't know if this was already known, but Volume 1 of the manga is up for pre-order here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1421592541/re ... Y1ABTSEKPX

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why people still believe that Toyotaro follows the 100x and 400x multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 respectively? It's pretty much clear that he ignores it. I would even be impressed if he applies 50x SSJ's multiplier to the story, though

Even something like being 10x stronger than goku would be pushing it

Why? He was stronger than even Ultimate Gohan, and the anime makes it look like he is probably stronger than Super Vegetto was.

[Doctor.]

That's worth something, and it irks me to see the work get verbally stomped on by people who wouldn't know how to do a better job if you gave them an entire lifetime.

This is absolutely not how criticism works. I know, for a fact, that I would not be able to do a better job than Toriyama did whilst drawing Dragon Ball during the 80s and 90s. I wouldn't be able to keep up with the intense schedule, which would lead to stress problems, which, in turn, would lead to health problems. Not to mention any potential family or work problems during the way. Plus, I know I also wouldn't care about consistency in a work I don't even like drawing. Does this mean I'm not allowed to call the Cell arc absolute dogshit if I see it as such? No. I understand Toriyama's circumstances, I appreciate the manga anyway, but I am allowed to and will criticize the manga if I want to do so. Likewise, I also know I wouldn't be do a better job than the animators at Toei working on Super right now, but that doesn't stop me and everyone else from calling the art and animation terrible, now does it?

It strikes me as perplexing that you got so defensive in the name of another person for the simple fact that I, and a few other people, criticized the manga and, good lord, called it shit a few times here and there. In case you don't know, the people who do criticize the manga are in the vast minority. Toyotaro isn't a victim here. Him getting called a terrible writer is very tame compared to the death threats that the animators at Toei get on a weekly basis.

The problem is that Toyotaro's work isn't technically bad at all by any standards. People are confusing preference with quality. The equivalent of calling Picasso a horrible artist because you don't like his style of art. That's why it's so infuriating because it simply comes off as immensely ignorant. There are certainly legitimate critiques, but calling the work as a whole trash is beyond a stretch.

This is again not how criticism works. Do you know how outrageous it is to say that Toyotaro's work isn't "technically" bad by "any" standards? People aren't confusing anything, preference and quality are two different things and people are aware of that fact. If they're calling Toyotaro's work dogshit, it's because they do honestly think it is dogshit. That Picasso argument isn't a good one, because you can indeed call Picasso a horrible artist. It's not a matter of perspective, it's subjective. The objective truth about Picasso's work is that it was groundbreaking and it had great cultural significance and artistic influence for generations to come. This doesn't mean you can't think his paintings are shit, as long as you acknowledge how important he was for art. Finnegans Wake was considered terrible by many critics and even famous writers when it came out.

I think that Toyotaro's work is bad. By my standards it's bad. The powerscalling isn't the only issue. If it were, then nobody would think that the anime was superior to the manga, considering the anime's scalling is ten times worse. The powerscalling going to shit is simply what made some fans turn against it. My gripes stem from the fact that his writing as a whole is terrible. His characters, mainly the villains, have no personality, aren't interesting and don't develop. His comedy is lackluster. His art lacks the same dynamism as Toriyama's and is a clear downgrade even compared to Toriyama's current work, the choreography is littered with homages to Toriyama's work (which get tiresome incredibly fast) and repeated punches and kicks contained in single panels, only a small percentage of it is actually interesting stuff. The pacing is terrible as well, it's too fast. I know most of these issues stem from the fact that it's a monthly promotional manga meant to hype up the anime. Yes, I get that, I understand that, that does not mean that the work is excused from criticism.

[Kanassa]

Him getting called a terrible writer is very tame compared to the death threats that the animators at Toei get on a weekly basis.

I wouldn't be surprised, but do we any confirmation on that? And were they serious ones or those ones filled with memes? Because, jesus.

[Doctor.]

Him getting called a terrible writer is very tame compared to the death threats that the animators at Toei get on a weekly basis.

I wouldn't be surprised, but do we any confirmation on that? And were they serious ones or those ones filled with memes? Because, jesus.

I don't know if they get actual letters, but I meant the usual ignorant comments on communities outside of Kanzenshuu of people wishing death upon the animators (Tate in particular, as Ajay even ranted about it a bit on his Twitter). This was posted on the animation thread the day the episode aired, and you can find identical, honest reactions if you just search on Youtube, Twitter, 4chan or any other community for a bit.

[Kanassa]

Him getting called a terrible writer is very tame compared to the death threats that the animators at Toei get on a weekly basis.

I wouldn't be surprised, but do we any confirmation on that? And were they serious ones or those ones filled with memes? Because, jesus.

I don't know if they get actual letters, but I meant the usual ignorant comments on communities outside of Kanzenshuu of people wishing death upon the animators (Tate in particular, as Ajay even ranted about it a bit).

Ah. I was expecting to hear about 'over 9000 bombs'. I'd say those types of 'threats' (I don't really count those comments as threats though) have been made towards every notable person in any sort of media. Hell, I bet Toyotaro has had the same said about him. Still, I agree with your point.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

This is absolutely not how criticism works. I know, for a fact

Literally just responded to someone who said the exact same thing. I'm not talking about legitimate criticisms, of which I, and you for that matter, have plenty. I'm addressing the illegitimate ones. Criticisms that are solely contrarian, misguided, or just wrong.

It strikes me as perplexing that you got so defensive in the name of another person for the simple fact that I, and a few other people, criticized the manga and, good lord, called it shit a few times here and there. In case you don't know, the people who do criticize the manga are in the vast minority. Toyotaro isn't a victim here. Him getting called a terrible writer is very tame compared to the death threats that the animators at Toei get on a weekly basis.

I don't get why you're turning it into a competition, but whatever. Death threats are bad I guess? Great, problem resolved! I'm not defensive of the manga because of your criticism, I'm defensive because many (maybe you, I don't remember tbh) hold it to an unrealistic standard to begin with, and degrade it from there. Also, you (us, because as I've pointed out, I've been vocal about the manga's problems too) Toyotaro critics aren't in some vast minority. Toyotaro has had tons of detractors to match his supporters from Day 1. Most people just made their criticisms and moved on already because the manga is a side product, and they don't find it worth their time.

[Doctor.]

I don't get why you're turning it into a competition, but whatever. I'm not defensive of the manga because of your criticism, I'm defensive because many (maybe you, I don't remember tbh) hold it to an unrealistic standard to begin with, and degrade it from there. Also, you Toyotaro critics aren't in some vast minority. Toyotaro has had tons of detractors to match his supporters from Day 1. Most people just made their criticisms and moved on already because the manga is a side product, and they don't find it worth their time.

I turned it into a "competition" because, again, you were acting like Toyotaro was some sort of victim in this situation. I don't think anyone holds it to an unrealistic standard, everyone knows it's just a promotional manga. We can understand the situation and circumstances that he's in, but that doesn't mean that we can't criticize it.

I don't know in what kind of communities you are, but everywhere I go, everyone loves Toyotaro's work and vastly prefers it to the anime. Detractors only really began to show up with the recent chapters, with the ones who have been present from the start only now beginning to speak loudly.