Are the SEG multipliers anything more than arbitrary figures?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Perfect Cell: 45
Super Perfect Cell: 90

Were you going for a 2x SSj2 boost here for Cell? In that case you've forgotten that Cell still had to go Full Power. How about put the 2x multiplier on top of that? Which is not illogical. That could put Super Perfect Cell as high as 135 or even higher, which would necessitate a higher boost for Gohan. Funny how everyone keeps forcing the 2x multiplier for the Saiyans, but not for Cell himself.

I view Cell's "Full Power" state as his equivalent of Grade 2 and his power weighted state as his equivalent of Grade 3. Thus his Super Perfect state would not be 2x that, but rather double his natural level which I have equal to FPSSJ Gohan.

[Saturnine]

Perfect Cell: 45
Super Perfect Cell: 90

Were you going for a 2x SSj2 boost here for Cell? In that case you've forgotten that Cell still had to go Full Power. How about put the 2x multiplier on top of that? Which is not illogical. That could put Super Perfect Cell as high as 135 or even higher, which would necessitate a higher boost for Gohan. Funny how everyone keeps forcing the 2x multiplier for the Saiyans, but not for Cell himself.

I view Cell's "Full Power" state as his equivalent of Grade 2 and his power weighted state as his equivalent of Grade 3. Thus his Super Perfect state would not be 2x that, but rather double his natural level which I have equal to FPSSJ Gohan.

Well whatever, Opinions, I guess.

[Tectorman]

Were you going for a 2x SSj2 boost here for Cell? In that case you've forgotten that Cell still had to go Full Power. How about put the 2x multiplier on top of that? Which is not illogical. That could put Super Perfect Cell as high as 135 or even higher, which would necessitate a higher boost for Gohan. Funny how everyone keeps forcing the 2x multiplier for the Saiyans, but not for Cell himself.

??

If you're talking about the difference between Perfect Cell when Gohan first went SSJ2 and Perfect Cell after he showed his "true, terrible power", then I already have it accounted for, even if I didn't illustrate it here.

To wit: Perfect Cell (true, terrible power): 45

And the power he'd shown up until then (that he'd fought Goku with) was just even less than that. 40, maybe.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Were you going for a 2x SSj2 boost here for Cell? In that case you've forgotten that Cell still had to go Full Power. How about put the 2x multiplier on top of that? Which is not illogical. That could put Super Perfect Cell as high as 135 or even higher, which would necessitate a higher boost for Gohan. Funny how everyone keeps forcing the 2x multiplier for the Saiyans, but not for Cell himself.

??

If you're talking about the difference between Perfect Cell when Gohan first went SSJ2 and Perfect Cell after he showed his "true, terrible power", then I already have it accounted for, even if I didn't illustrate it here.

To wit: Perfect Cell (true, terrible power): 45

And the power he'd shown up until then (that he'd fought Goku with) was just even less than that. 40, maybe.

You have FPSSJ Gohan considerably above even FP Cell? Seems too high.

[Kaboom]

Come on, this is less than a 1,1x power difference, and Gohan completely Yamcha'd bloated Cell.

That's more than the power difference Vegeta had against Dodoria, and we all saw how that progressed. Even if power-bloated Cell was getting really close to Gohan in raw power, his mental state at that point was abysmal. Combined with the obvious drawbacks of using that form, it's no surprise that Cell was still completely ineffective and Gohan landed a "critical hit" so easily.

Of course you CAN force a mere 2x multiplier for SSj2 if you want it badly enough but... why would you want it that badly?

I don't think anyone here is trying to "force" the 2x boost for SS2 to work. On the contrary, in my experience it's the opposite: Those who place too much importance on exact power differences are usually the only ones who have any sort of problem with it and then try so hard to discredit it.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Come on, this is less than a 1,1x power difference, and Gohan completely Yamcha'd bloated Cell.

That's more than the power difference Vegeta had against Dodoria, and we all saw how that progressed. Even if power-bloated Cell was getting really close to Gohan in raw power, his mental state at that point was abysmal. Combined with the obvious drawbacks of using that form, it's no surprise that Cell was still completely ineffective and Gohan landed a "critical hit" so easily.

Plus Cell told Trunks he'd surpassed him in power when he went Grade 3 but he still destroyed him without even trying.

[Saturnine]

Come on, this is less than a 1,1x power difference, and Gohan completely Yamcha'd bloated Cell.

That's more than the power difference Vegeta had against Dodoria, and we all saw how that progressed. Even if power-bloated Cell was getting really close to Gohan in raw power, his mental state at that point was abysmal. Combined with the obvious drawbacks of using that form, it's no surprise that Cell was still completely ineffective and Gohan landed a "critical hit" so easily.

Plus Cell told Trunks he'd surpassed him in power when he went Grade 3 but he still destroyed him without even trying.

That was Standby Cell dude. He powered up a huge amount from that level when he started fighting Goku seriously. That one should have been put to bed long ago.

Unless you think there was no great difference between those two powerlevels of Cell. Seriously, why does everyone squeeze Cell's powers into such a narrow spectrum. Freeza could go from 3 million to 120, which is a 40x margin, and for some reason for Cell it's suddenly far-fetched to think he's got like a 5-8x spectrum compared to his standby power for no other reason than to make a multiplier given in a guide work.

[Kaboom]

Freeza could go from 3 million to 120, which is a 40x margin, and for some reason for Cell it's suddenly far-fetched to think he's got like a 5-8x spectrum compared to his standby power for no other reason than to make a multiplier given in a guide work.

But the thing is... what evidence is there to suggest he did make such a numerically drastic power-up? I mean, it'd be one thing if someone in the manga actually observed and said, "Cell's power increased several times over!" when he went full-power. In that case it'd be extraordinarily difficult if not impossible to stack Gohan up against him with only a 2x boost for Super Saiyan 2. But there isn't any such line.

Like I said before, I see no evidence of anyone "forcing" the official 2x boost for SS2 to work here, because there's not actually anything concrete preventing it from working. There's no bona fide opposition to it from anything internally or externally reputable. There only seems to be a contrary desire from certain fans to not let it work, based on flimsy reasons like past trends (villains powering up hugely in their true forms), made-up power level scaling rules, or ultimately superficial tonal things (like SS2 being treated like a big deal at the Cell Games).

[TheUltimateNinja]

That's more than the power difference Vegeta had against Dodoria, and we all saw how that progressed. Even if power-bloated Cell was getting really close to Gohan in raw power, his mental state at that point was abysmal. Combined with the obvious drawbacks of using that form, it's no surprise that Cell was still completely ineffective and Gohan landed a "critical hit" so easily.

Plus Cell told Trunks he'd surpassed him in power when he went Grade 3 but he still destroyed him without even trying.

That was Standby Cell dude. He powered up a huge amount from that level when he started fighting Goku seriously. That one should have been put to bed long ago.

Unless you think there was no great difference between those two powerlevels of Cell. Seriously, why does everyone squeeze Cell's powers into such a narrow spectrum. Freeza could go from 3 million to 120, which is a 40x margin, and for some reason for Cell it's suddenly far-fetched to think he's got like a 5-8x spectrum compared to his standby power for no other reason than to make a multiplier given in a guide work.

What does that have to do with my statement? The point is that Trunks surpassed the suppression Cell was using at that time but he still got wrecked due his speed loss. Cell powered up further against Goku later on but he didn't use that against Trunks.

[Tectorman]

You have FPSSJ Gohan considerably above even FP Cell? Seems too high.

Well, more clearly, I have the FPSSJ that Gohan would have had had he tried as hard then as he did when he went SSJ2 considerably above FP Cell. The FPSSJ Gohan that we actually see who, during practically the entire fight, emphasizes nothing so much as how much he doesn't want to fight at all? No. I have that less than the Cell he faced and definitely less than Cell's "true, terrible power".

[TheUltimateNinja]

You have FPSSJ Gohan considerably above even FP Cell? Seems too high.

Well, more clearly, I have the FPSSJ that Gohan would have had had he tried as hard then as he did when he went SSJ2 considerably above FP Cell. The FPSSJ Gohan that we actually see who, during practically the entire fight, emphasizes nothing so much as how much he doesn't want to fight at all? No. I have that less than the Cell he faced and definitely less than Cell's "true, terrible power".

I have Gohan equal to Cell's natural maximum, but inferior to his "Full Power" state which as I mentioned earlier I see as his equivalent to Grade 2, this is based on Gohan being able to keep up with Cell even after he decided to go all out in speed, taking most of his attacks with minimal damage and managing to knock him to the ground with a single kick.

Once Cell powered up against SSJ2 Gohan, his power went up so much that Goku was worried even though Gohan had already displayed overwhelming power as an SSJ2, this suggests to me that if he were a regular SSJ he would not be able to match this level.

[Tectorman]

Once Cell powered up against SSJ2 Gohan, his power went up so much that Goku was worried even though Gohan had already displayed overwhelming power as an SSJ2, this suggests to me that if he were a regular SSJ he would not be able to match this level.

I read that as more Goku finally realizing how outclassed he had been in his fight, rather than worry for how well Gohan would be able to do.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Once Cell powered up against SSJ2 Gohan, his power went up so much that Goku was worried even though Gohan had already displayed overwhelming power as an SSJ2, this suggests to me that if he were a regular SSJ he would not be able to match this level.

I read that as more Goku finally realizing how outclassed he had been in his fight, rather than worry for how well Gohan would be able to do.

Cell was confident he could beat Gohan even after he saw Gohan one-shot all of the Jrs., while FPSSJ Gohan going all out could stomp them as well he would likely require 2 or 3 hits per Jr. at least.

[Gog]

There only use from what I can see is just simply telling us the multipliers of Super Saiyan, 2, and 3, which is useful, so that somebody won't go and say super Saiyan 2 'TIMES UR STRENGHT BI TEN, SO DOES 3111' which is irritating in its own right, and goes against Toriyama's law that small boosts make you capable of crushing your opponent

[Tectorman]

Cell was confident he could beat Gohan even after he saw Gohan one-shot all of the Jrs., while FPSSJ Gohan going all out could stomp them as well he would likely require 2 or 3 hits per Jr. at least.

I don't know about that. Vegeta and Trunks were fighting evenly against their Cell Jrs. We know that Goku at full power dwarfed them. Gohan powered up to unmotivated SSJ, which impressed them beyond even what they'd seen out of Goku, and I'm saying that Gohan as a motivated SSJ, though we never saw it, would have been even more impressive. I can easily see Gohan one-shotting the Cell Jrs, even as a mere FPSSJ. Heck, if Goku hadn't been exhausted, he probably could have one-shotted the Cell Jrs.

And I didn't read Cell as still being confident at this point. Prideful to where he wouldn't admit to being weaker? Sure. His back up against the wall with no recourse but to fight and hope for the best? Definitely. But I saw Cell already no longer being confident by then.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Cell was confident he could beat Gohan even after he saw Gohan one-shot all of the Jrs., while FPSSJ Gohan going all out could stomp them as well he would likely require 2 or 3 hits per Jr. at least.

I don't know about that. Vegeta and Trunks were fighting evenly against their Cell Jrs. We know that Goku at full power dwarfed them. Gohan powered up to unmotivated SSJ, which impressed them beyond even what they'd seen out of Goku, and I'm saying that Gohan as a motivated SSJ, though we never saw it, would have been even more impressive. I can easily see Gohan one-shotting the Cell Jrs, even as a mere FPSSJ. Heck, if Goku hadn't been exhausted, he probably could have one-shotted the Cell Jrs.

And I didn't read Cell as still being confident at this point. Prideful to where he wouldn't admit to being weaker? Sure. His back up against the wall with no recourse but to fight and hope for the best? Definitely. But I saw Cell already no longer being confident by then.

The Juniors likely possess some limited regeneration, unlike SSJ2 Gohan I don't think FPSSJ Gohan or Goku could put out enough power to annihilate them in one blow. Vegeta was able to stay alive after a hit from Super Perfect Cell despite the ~3x+ gap between them (Normally I have it at 4x, but I have Vegeta getting rage boosted from Trunks' death'), and I have FPSSJ Gohan's full power only slightly above 2x the Cell Jrs., so while a hit would certainly incapacitate them I don't think just one would be enough to kill them.

[Tectorman]

Cell was confident he could beat Gohan even after he saw Gohan one-shot all of the Jrs., while FPSSJ Gohan going all out could stomp them as well he would likely require 2 or 3 hits per Jr. at least.

I don't know about that. Vegeta and Trunks were fighting evenly against their Cell Jrs. We know that Goku at full power dwarfed them. Gohan powered up to unmotivated SSJ, which impressed them beyond even what they'd seen out of Goku, and I'm saying that Gohan as a motivated SSJ, though we never saw it, would have been even more impressive. I can easily see Gohan one-shotting the Cell Jrs, even as a mere FPSSJ. Heck, if Goku hadn't been exhausted, he probably could have one-shotted the Cell Jrs.

And I didn't read Cell as still being confident at this point. Prideful to where he wouldn't admit to being weaker? Sure. His back up against the wall with no recourse but to fight and hope for the best? Definitely. But I saw Cell already no longer being confident by then.

The Juniors likely possess some limited regeneration, unlike SSJ2 Gohan I don't think FPSSJ Gohan or Goku could put out enough power to annihilate them in one blow. Vegeta was able to stay alive after a hit from Super Perfect Cell despite the ~3x+ gap between them (Normally I have it at 4x, but I have Vegeta getting rage boosted from Trunks' death'), and I have FPSSJ Gohan's full power only slightly above 2x the Cell Jrs., so while a hit would certainly incapacitate them I don't think just one would be enough to kill them.

All it takes is a very slight difference to normally KO a weaker fighter, a la Vegeta vs Dodoria, and Gohan's hypothetical motivated FPSSJ is three tiers above the Cell Jrs. He can certainly "Dodoria-ize" them at that level. As for them regenerating, I don't think they can. Cell took a Kamehameha to the upper body and regenerated from that. Gohan one-shotted all those Cell Jrs as a SSJ2 with nothing but physical blows. More than powerful enough to splatter them open, but in the end, still only wrecking them as much as Goku's Warp Kamehameha did Cell. If they had any kind of regeneration that could handle injuries like that, wouldn't they have used it?

[TheUltimateNinja]

I don't know about that. Vegeta and Trunks were fighting evenly against their Cell Jrs. We know that Goku at full power dwarfed them. Gohan powered up to unmotivated SSJ, which impressed them beyond even what they'd seen out of Goku, and I'm saying that Gohan as a motivated SSJ, though we never saw it, would have been even more impressive. I can easily see Gohan one-shotting the Cell Jrs, even as a mere FPSSJ. Heck, if Goku hadn't been exhausted, he probably could have one-shotted the Cell Jrs.

And I didn't read Cell as still being confident at this point. Prideful to where he wouldn't admit to being weaker? Sure. His back up against the wall with no recourse but to fight and hope for the best? Definitely. But I saw Cell already no longer being confident by then.

The Juniors likely possess some limited regeneration, unlike SSJ2 Gohan I don't think FPSSJ Gohan or Goku could put out enough power to annihilate them in one blow. Vegeta was able to stay alive after a hit from Super Perfect Cell despite the ~3x+ gap between them (Normally I have it at 4x, but I have Vegeta getting rage boosted from Trunks' death'), and I have FPSSJ Gohan's full power only slightly above 2x the Cell Jrs., so while a hit would certainly incapacitate them I don't think just one would be enough to kill them.

All it takes is a very slight difference to normally KO a weaker fighter, a la Vegeta vs Dodoria, and Gohan's hypothetical motivated FPSSJ is three tiers above the Cell Jrs. He can certainly "Dodoria-ize" them at that level. As for them regenerating, I don't think they can. Cell took a Kamehameha to the upper body and regenerated from that. Gohan one-shotted all those Cell Jrs as a SSJ2 with nothing but physical blows. More than powerful enough to splatter them open, but in the end, still only wrecking them as much as Goku's Warp Kamehameha did Cell. If they had any kind of regeneration that could handle injuries like that, wouldn't they have used it?

I was talking about more Piccolo-style regeneration. All of their abilities seem to be nerfed versions of Cell's, so it stands to reason regeneration would be one of these as well.

The gaps seen on Namek never seem to work at any other point in the series, if they did Frieza would have been oneshot material for Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have lived through the Saiyan Saga.

[Tectorman]

The Juniors likely possess some limited regeneration, unlike SSJ2 Gohan I don't think FPSSJ Gohan or Goku could put out enough power to annihilate them in one blow. Vegeta was able to stay alive after a hit from Super Perfect Cell despite the ~3x+ gap between them (Normally I have it at 4x, but I have Vegeta getting rage boosted from Trunks' death'), and I have FPSSJ Gohan's full power only slightly above 2x the Cell Jrs., so while a hit would certainly incapacitate them I don't think just one would be enough to kill them.

All it takes is a very slight difference to normally KO a weaker fighter, a la Vegeta vs Dodoria, and Gohan's hypothetical motivated FPSSJ is three tiers above the Cell Jrs. He can certainly "Dodoria-ize" them at that level. As for them regenerating, I don't think they can. Cell took a Kamehameha to the upper body and regenerated from that. Gohan one-shotted all those Cell Jrs as a SSJ2 with nothing but physical blows. More than powerful enough to splatter them open, but in the end, still only wrecking them as much as Goku's Warp Kamehameha did Cell. If they had any kind of regeneration that could handle injuries like that, wouldn't they have used it?

I was talking about more Piccolo-style regeneration. All of their abilities seem to be nerfed versions of Cell's, so it stands to reason regeneration would be one of these as well.

The gaps seen on Namek never seem to work at any other point in the series, if they did Frieza would have been oneshot material for Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have lived through the Saiyan Saga.

I found the Namek gaps to still work well enough, but even if we go to the upper end represented by Vegeta withstanding Kaio3 Goku, and even if we say that the Cell Jrs aren't one-shot material for Goku at full power or even what we saw out of Gohan as a SSJ, that still leaves plenty of room for Gohan as a motivated SSJ to insta-kill them the same as he did as a SSJ2.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Are any multipliers or power levels anything more than arbitrary figures?