Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

Goku's statement could be interpreted as such, but Vegeta's equating SSR to Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Blue has always been identified as (a progression of) Super Saiyan God more than a Super Saiyan. If Vegeta wanted to equate SSR to SSB, he'd say "Black can turn into a Super Saiyan God".

The one time Super Saiyan Blue was actually given a definition, it was specifically identified as the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. It has always been made abundantly clear that Super Saiyan Blue is nothing more than another version of the first Super Saiyan stage, and the only real differential here is the usage of God ki.

What Goku and Vegeta are saying is decidedly neutral on the subject of what SSR is an "equivalent" of, exactly.

I mean, saying that Black can't use Super Saiyan in the anime is about the same level of assumption as saying that Goku can't use Super Saiyan God. You can't confirm it, but it's a pretty safe assumption to make.

Well, it's just an assumption. Of course, there's nothing wrong with that - I have plenty of assumptions about the series myself. I'm saying there's no need to declare it as an absolute confirmation, just call it what it is.

[Doctor.]

Well, it's just an assumption. Of course, there's nothing wrong with that - I have plenty of assumptions about the series myself. I'm saying there's no need to declare it as an absolute confirmation.

Well, that is my fault, I misremembered what Vegeta said and I was sure the word equivalent or a synonym was used at some point.

[HeroR]

Pretty sure both Goku and Vegeta called SSR Black's version of SSJ. That's about as clear-cut as you can get. It's not hard to think that there's a difference between the anime and Toriyama's notes.

All they said was that Black has his own Super Saiyan form that he calls Super Saiyan Rose. They also tend to call their Super Saiyan forms just Super Saiyan despite the form. For example, Super Saiyan 2 is just called Super Saiyan by everyone. Also, Goku originally called Blue Super Saiyan with God ki to Freeza.

[Bullza]

Super Saiyan Rose clearly had the exact same aura as Super Saiyan Blue. I don't why people would think it was supposed to be the regukar Super Saiyan form especially after Toriyama's comments.

I do wonder why they didn't have Super Saiyan Black in the anime though.

[HeroR]

Super Saiyan Rose clearly had the exact same aura as Super Saiyan Blue. I don't why people would think it was supposed to be the regukar Super Saiyan form especially after Toriyama's comments.

I do wonder why they didn't have Super Saiyan Black in the anime though.

My guess, the anime used this logic:

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Super Super Saiyan + god ki

Super Saiyan Rose is Super Saiyan + God ki

Zamasu's a God. So his ki should naturally be God ki, or similar since the Kais have sensable ki.

So Zamasu's ki + Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan Rose

[Bullza]

Shouldn't that be true for the manga aswell though? He still turned Super Saiyan there.

[HeroR]

Shouldn't that be true for the manga aswell though? He still turned Super Saiyan there.

The manga does its own thing. Especially with Super Saiyan God being its own form instead of Goku absorbing it.

[TheMikado]

I'm confused are we working under the assumption that Black cannot turn SSJ in the anime? Toriyama specifically says he can, so why are we making the assumption he can't just because he doesn't use it? Toriyama didn't think it was important enough to make a design for and maybe Toei didn't either. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Bullza]

No I'm just wondering why it wouldn't appear in the anime if it exists and Toriyama mentioned it.

[Doctor.]

Super Saiyan Rose clearly had the exact same aura as Super Saiyan Blue. I don't why people would think it was supposed to be the regukar Super Saiyan form especially after Toriyama's comments.

I do wonder why they didn't have Super Saiyan Black in the anime though.

Golden Freeza had the same kind of aura as SS Blue, yet it's not a God transformation since everyone could sense his Ki. Aesthetics don't matter in the slightest, you should be used to this considering this is Dragon Ball after all, the series with the constant "is he SS1 or SS2?" debates.

I'm confused are we working under the assumption that Black cannot turn SSJ in the anime? Toriyama specifically says he can, so why are we making the assumption he can't just because he doesn't use it? Toriyama didn't think it was important enough to make a design for and maybe Toei didn't either. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I don't see why you can't understand that the anime can (I'm not saying it does) contradict Toriyama's outline and, if that's the case, then Toriyama's outline should be disregarded when discussing the anime product.

[Bullza]

Yeah Golden Frieza had a very similar aura but Super Saiyan Rose Black had the exact same aura as Super Saiyan Blue Goku. They even played the same God theme when he transformed as when Goku first became a God.

When combined with what was written of the character by Toriyama where we know for a fact that Super Saiyan Rose isn't just Super Saiyan then I don't see any reason whatsoever why it should be doubted.

[Khin]

Shouldn't that be true for the manga aswell though? He still turned Super Saiyan there.

Unlike the anime, it was never implied that Black have Zamasu's Ki in the manga. It's possible that he did not retain his original Ki upon switching, that or Black still can't use his original Ki, hence the golden Super Saiyan.

It's possible that Black repossess his original Ki/power the more he fights, which results in him getting stronger, thus explaining his rapid improvement (He went from seemingly needing to transform into Super Saiyan to beat Trunks to just using his regular form to beat him in their recent fight). And once he recover his old Ki to the fullest, he can transform into Super Saiyan Rosé.

Initially, Black probably was about only as strong as Goku, but the more he fought, the he's closing to recovering his original Ki --reaching to a point where he can beat Trunks just in base. Like Zamasu said in the recent chapter, Black fighting Vegeta brought him a step closer to reaching his ultimate form.

In the anime, Black probably retained Zamasu's Ki right from the start. Which is why he was able to kill Goku (In Zamasu's body), why he was crazy strong in base, and why it was never implied anywhere that he have the golden Super Saiyan. The only thing he lacked was to trigger Super Saiyan, which he learned after fighting Goku.

[TheMikado]

Super Saiyan Rose clearly had the exact same aura as Super Saiyan Blue. I don't why people would think it was supposed to be the regukar Super Saiyan form especially after Toriyama's comments.

I do wonder why they didn't have Super Saiyan Black in the anime though.

Golden Freeza had the same kind of aura as SS Blue, yet it's not a God transformation since everyone could sense his Ki. Aesthetics don't matter in the slightest, you should be used to this considering this is Dragon Ball after all, the series with the constant "is he SS1 or SS2?" debates.

I'm confused are we working under the assumption that Black cannot turn SSJ in the anime? Toriyama specifically says he can, so why are we making the assumption he can't just because he doesn't use it? Toriyama didn't think it was important enough to make a design for and maybe Toei didn't either. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I don't see why you can't understand that the anime can (I'm not saying it does) contradict Toriyama's outline and, if that's the case, then Toriyama's outline should be disregarded when discussing the anime product.

Never said it can't?? What I'm saying is we have established in universe world building lore from the creator then we somehow start making up our own because it doesn't fit our personal head canon. It's one thing if the anime actually said he can't but it never does and the Toriyama note doesn't contradict anything we've seen so I don't see why we are rushing to redefine the world lore?.

These are big assumptions:
Black cannot turn SSJ in the anime
The SSR which is likely SSB equivalent is just the SSJ equivalent in the anime.

I'm just saying it's really weird to make those two huge assumptions when nothing was said either way. I guess for me it would like assuming Pikachu doesn't have any other evolution states in Pokémon Go just because we haven't seen them despite it being clearly established universe lore.

[Bullza]

Just saw this one the Frieza Dragon Ball Wiki page.

"According to the Dragon Ball Super rival danger scale, Golden Frieza ranks as an eight out of twelve, the bio also notes that even as of the "Future" Trunks Saga Golden Frieza's strength still surpasses that of Super Saiyan Blue."

Is that true or complete bullshit? I could maybe believe that Golden Frieza was stronger by the start of the saga but certainly not by the end.

[HeroR]

Just saw this one the Frieza Dragon Ball Wiki page.

"According to the Dragon Ball Super rival danger scale, Golden Frieza ranks as an eight out of twelve, the bio also notes that even as of the "Future" Trunks Saga Golden Frieza's strength still surpasses that of Super Saiyan Blue."

Is that true or complete bullshit? I could maybe believe that Golden Frieza was stronger by the start of the saga but certainly not by the end.

The bio only says his golden form surpassed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Which it does looking at it as a pure multiplier. He is ranked as a 8 to 12 as a danger to Goku's life, not on power. Even if Goku is physically stronger than Freeza, he can skill nuke the planet Goku is standing on and survive.

[Bullza]

Well Golden Frieza definitely surpassed Super Saiyan Blue during the Resurrection F saga but it looks like that page is making the assumption that Golden Frieza is still superior to Super Saiyan Blue because it's a recent article that came out during the Future Trunks saga.

There's no way he's more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue now.

[HeroR]

Well Golden Frieza definitely surpassed Super Saiyan Blue during the Resurrection F saga but it looks like that page is making the assumption that Golden Frieza is still superior to Super Saiyan Blue because it's a recent article that came out during the Future Trunks saga.

There's no way he's more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue now.

As a form, it is stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. It took Freeza from being weaker than base form Goku to surpassing him by a decent amount even at full power, meaning the multipler of the form is much higher than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. The form only failing was stamina, which wouldn't happened if Freeza took the time to train the form instead of rushing to Earth.

So the form is stronger the same way Super Saiyan 2 is stronger than a normal Super Saiyan.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Well Golden Frieza definitely surpassed Super Saiyan Blue during the Resurrection F saga but it looks like that page is making the assumption that Golden Frieza is still superior to Super Saiyan Blue because it's a recent article that came out during the Future Trunks saga.

There's no way he's more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue now.

He could certainly be stronger in the manga, but definitely not the anime.

Anyway, I've come up with a power level list to try and prevent Vegeta vs Black from contradicting the U6 arc.

SSJ Goku: 1
SSJ2 Goku: 2
SSJ3 Goku: 3
SSJ2 Trunks: 3
Black: 3.5
SSJ2 Black: 3.5
SSJ2 Vegeta: 4
SSGod Goku: 6
SSBlue Vegeta: 9

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Frieza is still stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta. That's blatantly stated. Not sure how anyone that isn't biased would come to the conclusion that the article is just trying to say that Frieza's form has a higher multiplier than Blue when that isn't the factually correct interpretation based on what it says and that wouldn't even make sense to point out.

If Frieza is weaker than Goku and Vegeta, then he wouldn't be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue. It's that simple.

[HeroR]

Frieza is still stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta. That's blatantly stated. Not sure how anyone that isn't biased would come to the conclusion that the article is just trying to say that Frieza's form has a higher multiplier than Blue when that isn't the factually correct interpretation based on what it says and that wouldn't even make sense to point out.

If Frieza is weaker than Goku and Vegeta, then he wouldn't be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue. It's that simple.

Freeza was stronger than Goku and Vegeta in the Resurrection 'F' Saga. Freeza was strong, but do you honestly think he was over 10x stronger than Goku, because that is how much stronger Goku is at the very least since he can fight a much stronger Hit without the Kaioken?