The new arc will (may?) settle an old debate: Tenshinhan vs. Kuririn

[Gog]

Well... Ummm Okay he's a descendant from an alien, I'll roll with that then, however Tien is a descendant from an alien, so that means that whatever alien blood he once had inside of him, has been diluted over the ages to the point where the only alien thing about him is that eye. And that still dosen't change the fact that 'akira Toriyama god of dragon ball' has stated that Krillin is the strongest earthling.

[JulianStyles]

I'm not seeing how a random quote from a Daizenshuu excerpt overrules what Toriyama directly said when asked about this issue in an interview.

It's not random as its mentioned 5 times, and is repeated in games and DVD bios books. Also Akira never said who Krillin is stronger than. As I keep saying Gohan,Goten,Trunks,17 and 18 are Earthlings. Now it's up to you to use your head and determine who did Akira mean when he used Earthling for Krillin? It's pure humans. Wether you think Tien is a Decendant of Aliens or not. He is not pure human. Mystical,godlike, a sub species. Ect. So don't twist and say Akira was directly asked this issue.

He was also asked if Tien was human. He says he's godlike. Lol

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/press-archive ... -toriyama/

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm not seeing how a random quote from a Daizenshuu excerpt overrules what Toriyama directly said when asked about this issue in an interview.

It's not random as its mentioned 5 times, and is repeated in games and DVD bios books. Also Akira never said who Krillin is stronger than. As I keep saying Gohan,Goten,Trunks,17 and 18 are Earthlings. Now it's up to you to use your head and determine who did Akira mean when he used Earthling for Krillin? It's pure humans. Wether you think Tien is a Decendant of Aliens or not. He is not pure human. Mystical,godlike, a sub species. Ect. So don't twist and say Akira was directly asked this issue.

He was also asked if Tien was human. He says he's godlike. Lol

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/press-archive ... -toriyama/

"That's true. He (Kuririn) is the strongest Earthling male."

[JulianStyles]

Well... Ummm Okay he's a descendant from an alien, I'll roll with that then, however Tien is a descendant from an alien, so that means that whatever alien blood he once had inside of him, has been diluted over the ages to the point where the only alien thing about him is that eye. And that still dosen't change the fact that 'akira Toriyama god of dragon ball' has stated that Krillin is the strongest earthling.

I keep asking what is 17 if not an Earthling male? It's states in the Daizenshuu


Tien is a steady, reliable martial artist trained in the Crane School.

He originally wanted to become an assassin, demonstrating a cruel streak as he
broke Yamcha's leg in battle. Through Master Roshi's advice and his battles
with Goku, Tien decided to pursue pure martial arts instead, leaving the Crane
School along with Chiaotzu.

Later, Tien embarked on a training journey with Chiaotzu, driven purely by a
desire to become stronger. Though when the need called for it, he returned to
fight alongside his friends.

A descendant of the Triclops alien race, Tien has mastered a variety of skills
that his friends on Earth have Difficulty with, including Multi-Form and the
Four Witches technique

So it's clearly not diluted enough to be considered human and lose his people's abilities.

[Lord Beerus]

Akira has also said Tien is godlike and never acknowledged him as human when asked. If you read my opening post. I showed Tien is a Decendant of Aliens. And Gohan,Goten,Trunks,17 and 18 ARE ALL EARTHLINGS! So the statement refers to pure blooded humans. Because if you want to group Tien with Krillin the the show contradicts that statement.

When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be true.

When did Toriyama ever say that Tien is Godlike? Plus, Gohan, Trunks and Goten are also direct offspring of aliens but they're still Earthlings, too.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/press-archive ... -toriyama/

Eat and wheep. Ask yourself after reading it. Did AiKira say Tien was human? Also you just admitted Gohan and Trunks are Earthlings. Thus solidifying the flaw in the Krillin strongest Earthling statement. Thank you. Because if Krillin isn't stronger than Gohan,Goten,Trunks,17 AND 18 then he's not the strongest Earthling. But strongest pure human Earthling.

In certain parts of Asia, beings with a third eye on their forehead are thought to be godlike and are said to possess the power of true seeing. It seems that Tenshinhan, who was raised by the evil Tsuru-Sen’nin [Crane Hermit], lost the ability to use the myriad powers of his third eye for good purposes.

Toriyama actually states that any kind of mystical powers that Tien would have gotten from his third were lost. So he's not even Godlike as you're believing to be case. At the the end of the day, what you think ultimately doesn't matter to what the author states to be the case. If Toriyama says Krillin is the strongest Earthling, on several occasions needlessly to say, then he is the strongest Earthling, and you just have to accept that at face value for what it is.

[Kamiccolo9]

Funnily enough, Herms pointed out on numerous occasions that Tenshinhan's third eye is never said to be due to some alien heritage. That Daizenshuu entry just references some of his techniques.

Doesn't really have any effect on this discussion, but it's kinda funny.

Incidentally, Daizenshuu 4, classifying Tenshinhan as an Earthling, and the half-Saiyans as Saiyans.
http://web.archive.org/web/201111040711 ... =race#link

[JulianStyles]

When did Toriyama ever say that Tien is Godlike? Plus, Gohan, Trunks and Goten are also direct offspring of aliens but they're still Earthlings, too.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/press-archive ... -toriyama/

Eat and wheep. Ask yourself after reading it. Did AiKira say Tien was human? Also you just admitted Gohan and Trunks are Earthlings. Thus solidifying the flaw in the Krillin strongest Earthling statement. Thank you. Because if Krillin isn't stronger than Gohan,Goten,Trunks,17 AND 18 then he's not the strongest Earthling. But strongest pure human Earthling.

In certain parts of Asia, beings with a third eye on their forehead are thought to be godlike and are said to possess the power of true seeing. It seems that Tenshinhan, who was raised by the evil Tsuru-Sen’nin [Crane Hermit], lost the ability to use the myriad powers of his third eye for good purposes.

Toriyama actually states that any kind of mystical powers that Tien would have gotten from his third were lost. So he's not even Godlike as you're believing to be case. At the the end of the day, what you think ultimately doesn't matter to what the author states to be the case. If Toriyama says Krillin is the strongest Earthling, on several occasions needlessly to say, then he is the strongest Earthling, and you just have to accept that at face value for what it is.

Akira saying Tien lost his powers because of being raised by evil. Doesn't dispute the fact he didn't say he was human. I also love the fact you keep ignoring my question when I ask what is 17 if not Earthling? If he's Earthling not only that his sister can give birth to humans. Then Akira said statement has a flaw. And if there's doubt then it opens up the whole argument and it isn't shut. If this was a court room you would lose. And lose badly. Because you can't answer a question! What is 17 and 18 if not Earthling?

[Kamiccolo9]

They are Jinzoningen, rather than simply Ningen. That's how Toriyama portrays them in his own story.

The interview where he says that Krillin is the strongest Earthling has Toriyama talking about 18 in the question right before that. He's not leaving them out; they are a different classification.

And seriously, dude. Calm the fuck down. This isn't that serious.

[JulianStyles]

Funnily enough, Herms pointed out on numerous occasions that Tenshinhan's third eye is never said to be due to some alien heritage. That Daizenshuu entry just references some of his techniques.

Doesn't really have any effect on this discussion, but it's kinda funny.

Incidentally, Daizenshuu 4, classifying Tenshinhan as an Earthling, and the half-Saiyans as Saiyans.
http://web.archive.org/web/201111040711 ... =race#link

Thank you for that link. Because if you scroll down to Tienshinhans profile it says Decendant of Aliens! Lol I'm done for now as I have to work.

Like I said the next arc will be very telling.

[Kamiccolo9]

Funnily enough, Herms pointed out on numerous occasions that Tenshinhan's third eye is never said to be due to some alien heritage. That Daizenshuu entry just references some of his techniques.

Doesn't really have any effect on this discussion, but it's kinda funny.

Incidentally, Daizenshuu 4, classifying Tenshinhan as an Earthling, and the half-Saiyans as Saiyans.
http://web.archive.org/web/201111040711 ... =race#link

Thank you for that link. Because if you scroll down to Tienshinhans profile it says Decendant of Aliens! Lol I'm done for now as I have to work.

Like I said the next arc will be very telling.

And it also puts him in the Earthling category. Feel free to ignore the context, if you want. You don't seem to be making a good case for yourself, going by the general reaction to your posts here.

[Gog]

I feel like this reply will just be a waste, but I must ask you, who. Wrote. Those guide books? Because not once in the series is Tien stated to be an alien/descendant of an alien. There isn't anything pointing towards such a fact. krillin was born without a nose yet I'm not here claiming that he's an alien or that he's related to the No Nosed Clan, because there's nothing pointing towards that fact.

[RedShift]

Kuririn has failed to be relevant since Namek, nor does he train anymore. He's the joke comic relief character... One of many in this series.

When Tien shows up he actually does something somewhat relevant. Or at least more so than Kuririn has in years. That's more than enough justification to resolve this debate where people twist every piece of evidence they can to further there narrative.

Where was Kuririn when Tien held back Cell? Could Kuririn have fought Trunks in the (non-cannon) Bojack special? Could Kuririn have deflected an attack from Majin Buu? Yeah no.

[Gog]

Kuririn has failed to be relevant since Namek, nor does he train anymore. He's the joke comic relief character... One of many in this series.

When Tien shows up he actually does something somewhat relevant. Or at least more so than Kuririn has in years. That's more than enough justification to resolve this debate where people twist every piece of evidence they can to further there narrative.

Where was Kuririn when Tien held back Cell? Could Kuririn have fought Trunks in the (non-cannon) Bojack special? Could Kuririn have deflected an attack from Majin Buu? Yeah no.

??? W-what that doesn't actually prove anything, only that Tien is a more relevant *weaker* character then Krillin is. It also proves that Toei has a hard on for Tien, and Tien has the Tri beam, his saving grace

[RedShift]

Kuririn has failed to be relevant since Namek, nor does he train anymore. He's the joke comic relief character... One of many in this series.

When Tien shows up he actually does something somewhat relevant. Or at least more so than Kuririn has in years. That's more than enough justification to resolve this debate where people twist every piece of evidence they can to further there narrative.

Where was Kuririn when Tien held back Cell? Could Kuririn have fought Trunks in the (non-cannon) Bojack special? Could Kuririn have deflected an attack from Majin Buu? Yeah no.

??? W-what that doesn't actually prove anything, only that Tien is a more relevant *weaker* character then Krillin is. It also proves that Toei has a hard on for Tien, and Tien has the Tri beam, his saving grace

Nobody has proved anything. The guidebook statements are woefully out of date and out of touch with what goes on in the actual anime & Manga. Even on Namek (at his height) Kuririn hasn't had the same level of showings as Tien. It's pretty cut & dry, people just can't see the obvious because of there own bias. You're far more invested in this discussion than I am though, so you believe whatever you want, more power to you.

[Gog]

Kuririn has failed to be relevant since Namek, nor does he train anymore. He's the joke comic relief character... One of many in this series.

When Tien shows up he actually does something somewhat relevant. Or at least more so than Kuririn has in years. That's more than enough justification to resolve this debate where people twist every piece of evidence they can to further there narrative.

Where was Kuririn when Tien held back Cell? Could Kuririn have fought Trunks in the (non-cannon) Bojack special? Could Kuririn have deflected an attack from Majin Buu? Yeah no.

??? W-what that doesn't actually prove anything, only that Tien is a more relevant *weaker* character then Krillin is. It also proves that Toei has a hard on for Tien, and Tien has the Tri beam, his saving grace

Nobody has proved anything. The guidebook statements are woefully out of date and out of touch with what goes on in the actual anime & Manga. Even on Namek (at his height) Kuririn hasn't had the same level of showings as Tien. It's pretty cut & dry, people just can't see the obvious because of there own bias. You're far more invested in this discussion than I am though, so you believe whatever you want, more power to you.

Thanks!

[FoolsGil]

After the Yamcha meme in episode? Yep, I can see Toei squashing it once and for all.

[Nejishiki]

Toriyama said Krilin was the strongest human. Tien is an alien, so this sentence doesn't work for him. Only with guys like Yamcha, Roshi, Guimao...

In skills Tien can learn techniques only seeing once. He also created some techniques and improved others. Krilin created the Kienzan (a good one), nothing more...In Sayan arc Krilin got his boost in Namek, yes! But Tien trained in King Kai planet and got his boost too. He was capable to stop semi perfect Cell for a while...I doubt Krilin can do something close to this even now.
When everybody was fighting Frieza's army, Tien did much more difference than Krilin.
The next step we will see in tournament! I bet Tien will show his value.

As noted before, Tenshinhan is classified as a Human-type Earthling (out of the alternatives from Animal-type & Monster-type humans). He shares classes with Yamcha, Turtle Hermit, and Gyumao just as Gohan, Goten, and Trunks share classes as half-Saiyan, half-Earthling humans. If we consider the context of Tenshinhan's ancestry, it's only referenced to explain his ability to split into four individuals and grow additional limbs. By the same token, Gohan's classification as a half-Saiyan, half-Earthling human would reference his ability to possess a tail and transform into a Giant Monkey.

The reference pertaining to Tenshinhan's quick mimicry of the Kamehameha was accomplished by others before him, if you remember. Tenshinhan's Kikoho is the only unique, improved technique to his name. Kuririn's unique, improved technique is his ability to scatter single beams of ki into multiple beams of ki. The argument for invention and improvisation favors neither party due to both having a single milestone to their name (Kikoho & Kienzan, Shin Kikoho & "Scatter Bullet"). Of course, the minutia of who develops techniques more impressively & frequently is hardly related to the ultimate subject. Nevertheless, it was addressed in sufficient detail, I hope.

I referenced Tenshinhan's (Chiaotzu, Yamcha, and Piccolo, too) training with North Kaio in my initial post. The original story offers no insight for how much they improved in the afterlife. It's not particularly evidence of anything beside the fact they trained in the middle of Dragon Ball's eighth arc out of ten. Kuririn's inability to stall Cell with the Shin Kikoho doesn't express to the audience how either party's fighting strength could be compared with each other. It does tell us Tenshinhan used one of his deadly kiai techniques to distract Cell at the cost of his well being. I'm sure you're no stranger to the that fact ki is ultimately more powerful than its users. In Shin Kikoho's context, it increases the force of one's kiai at the cost of their internal energy just as Kaio-ken increases the battle power of one's ki at the cost of their body's stability. They do not reflect the user's normal fighting strength. They are both intended to be finishing techniques because of their apparent, utilized dangers.

Also, Tien training all his life is a good reason why I think Tien is stronger than Krillin, who didn't train for 7 full years.

We also know how it was back in the original Dragon Ball series, how Tien was stronger than Krillin. Tien's ways of training are much superior than Krillin's, specially considering the latter doesn't train as hard.

[...]

The reason said "amongst" the earthlings it was because Piccolo, A18 and the saiyans were also in the tournament, Yamcha knew that Krillin, while being strong, is not the strongest on the Tournament because of the others being in the tournament. Also, wouldn't Gohan be considered an earthling too? He's half a saiyan and half a human.

I don't believe Tenshinhan's continued practice was ever in doubt by anyone. However, the narrative neglects to comment what kind of growth he's made since improving the Kikoho. That's extremely important in Dragon World's context, where method of training determines one's rate of growth. Otherwise, you'll soon greet stagnation. I would understand if narration dictated how he's improved compared to other individuals. Comments of that nature don't exist, to my knowledge. As the audience, we don't truly know what Tenshinhan's training has consisted of aside from farming.

A strict guideline for how unspecified training regimen affects martial artists was not officially provided. It's difficult to justify vague events as proof he surpassed anyone else when evidence towards the contrary is directly reinforced instead. I'm not quite sure I understand the stance of claiming his future training endeavors are superior or are even still being followed similarly without first or secondhand knowledge of what he's doing to begin with (aside from farming, yet again). I talked about North Kaio's training above. I provided the official classifications for Piccolo, No. 18, Gohan, Trunks, and Goten here.

It seems like people don't read. I gave all the proof and references to dispell your thinking. Daizenshuu states Gohan is an Earthling. He's in a category of 1% mixed races. Tien is not human type. This is exactly the ignorant thinking that will have you embarrassed when the next arc yet again proves people like you wrong.

Let me ask you a question. If someone is born human, and can give birth to humans, what are they? That what 17,18 are. They were enhanced with human technology. They are Earthlings. The statement is extremely flaud! I've outlined why.

If you do your research Tien has been stated Decendant of Aliens over and over and over again! If you read my post. Akira Toriyama says Tien is viewed as godlike, who lost powers because he was raised by evil. He could have easily said oh yeah he's human. But he doesnt!

[...]

I think the proof came in ROF. Both were given the same task. 170 soilders. Tien succeeded with out a scratch. Krillin did not. I believe the weaker ones were portrayed. Roshi and Jacko were the most beat up. Roshi struggled the most to let you know he was the weakest. When it comes to the soilders. Piccolo,Tien and Gohan were the cream of the crop.

But unfortunately the excuse for Krillin is we can't measure anything against Freeza's soilders. Even though Krillin lost to them and needed to be saved by Gohan in the movie. By Tienshinhan in the series.

I addressed your comments about Tenshinhan's ancestry, the context of Toriyama's 2003 comment, the context of Dragon Team's battle against Freeza's forces, and Gohan, Tenshinhan, No. 17, & No. 18's classifications here. For clarification, I'll add how distinctions are made beyond the types of humans featured in the guidebook. Overall, when read completely, the classifications are given their particular specifications for extraordinary cases.

I feel like this reply will just be a waste, but I must ask you, who. Wrote. Those guide books?

As addressed in my opening post, Shueisha handled the guidebooks. Toriyama's involvement is through interviews and artwork.

At any rate, I always attempt to adhere toward the will of this forum. I personally have no problem with either party being stronger. Like Mike, I didn't bet a horse in this race. I do believe I've made fair observations and supported my posts effectively. I'm disappointed my initial post was mostly ignored the first time around. Usually, I'll look past it but I suppose I have a strong desire to get my unanswered questions addressed. I did have legitimate inquiries since my memory isn't perfect.

[JulianStyles]

2 to 3 months. Someone will be right.

[dbgtFO]

After the Yamcha meme in episode? Yep, I can see Toei squashing it once and for all.

I too think this might happen.
In any case I don't like doubt and vagueness, so even Toriyama saying "Krillin is the strongest earthling" is not good enough for me, because there's something to doubt Tenshinhan's classification as an Earthling, which may have played part in that statement.

The "Tenshinhan has alien ancestry" factoid is annoying, because we don't know for sure Toriyama came up with it, which also makes that doubtful, thus until further evidence is provided it makes the most sense to say Krillin is the strongest Earthling and Tenshinhan is included in that classification, thus Ten < Krillin.

Of course Toriyama saying "Character X is stronger than character Y" would be the preferable scenario as it leaves no ambiguity.

2 to 3 months. Someone will be right.

Maybe, maybe not. They could have established it beyond all reasonable doubt in Res [F] but didn't, so maybe they won't do it in this arc either.

[Helios518]

2 to 3 months. Someone will be right.

No, because in 3 months, even if Tenshinhan is said to be stronger than Kuririn then you can make the argument that he only just surpassed Kuririn at that time of the arc meaning he was still weaker than Kuririn at Freeza arc - RoF.