Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

So hypothetical Hit vs Golden Frieza? What are we looking at here?

[GodKaio-Ken]

So hypothetical Hit vs Golden Frieza? What are we looking at here?

Are we talking ROF Golden Frieza or one that trained more to maintain his power? I think if he trained a bit more he would give Hit a nice run for his money. However i dont believe Frieza is tactical enough to defeat him.

[DBZ Macky]

I wish people wouldn't use all these damn zeros...use the right format...anything over 1 million should be 1.0x10^6 or something like that...people can't be trying to make sense of all these figures. IT looks ridiculous.

As an engineering student, I am well aware of the scientific notation, and even use it in day to day life.
I know the zeroes might seem annoying to you, but just imagine how much more inconvenient would it be for the kids guys on YouTube if I used the scientific notation.
It's cool to hate mathematics these days.

But I completely agree with you, they do look ridiculous. Maybe that's why we got the concept of Kilis, or just the whole "can't be expressed in numbers" stuff.

[Freezerbaby]

So hypothetical Hit vs Golden Frieza? What are we looking at here?

Are we talking ROF Golden Frieza or one that trained more to maintain his power? I think if he trained a bit more he would give Hit a nice run for his money. However i dont believe Frieza is tactical enough to defeat him.

Unfortunately the Frieza we were shown in ROF performed really bad when it comes to tactic, whereas namek Frieza was really good at this, he first was toying with goku then showed only half his strenght to defeat him, saved his full power for later and by the time he found himself cornered by ssj goku he blew up the planet allowing five minutes for the final fight so that either he would win the battle or goku would die because of the explosion

[GodKaio-Ken]

So hypothetical Hit vs Golden Frieza? What are we looking at here?

Are we talking ROF Golden Frieza or one that trained more to maintain his power? I think if he trained a bit more he would give Hit a nice run for his money. However i dont believe Frieza is tactical enough to defeat him.

Unfortunately the Frieza we were shown in ROF performed really bad when it comes to tactic, whereas namek Frieza was really good at this, he first was toying with goku then showed only half his strenght to defeat him, saved his full power for later and by the time he found himself cornered by ssj goku he blew up the planet allowing five minutes for the final fight so that either he would win the battle or goku would die because of the explosion

Hmm but the question is was that tactical or lazy? He kept saying each transformation was more than enough. Good point though!

Either way though i sort of meant more in terms of countering attacks and such. I dont see Frieza figuring out why he cant land a punch on Hit when hes standing still for instance. Just doesnt seem like that type of fighter generally.

[Hugo Boss]

Only time when the articles do that is when it references a specific event. Frieza surpassing Super Saiyan Blue isn't a statement tied to any era. There's a question mark next to the statement about Monaka. It's just playing into the gag factor. If Monaka came back right now, everyone would pretend that he is the strongest so Goku wouldn't know that he's weak.

It states that Frieza surpasses Super Saiyan Blue, not that he used to be stronger than it. It doesn't get any more explicit and current than that.

Every event there is written from the perspective of the time it took place. Its pretty obvious.

Then it would refer to a specific event in the statement, but it doesn't. It just says that he's stronger than Super Saiyan Blue. Not sure why the denial is so strong here.

When was Golden Freeza stronger than Super Saiyan Blue? That's what he is talking about. Some people extrapolated the context by saying Golden Freeza's strength will always be greater than Super Saiyan Blue's. This is not the intention. Goku and Vegeta have become stronger since then. There is no way they could tell how strong Golden Freeza is in comparison to current Goku because Freeza was killed. And if we take what they say as literal as possible, Goku Black was defeated by Goku. But we know it wasn't Goku directly. So no, they aren't talking about things we didn't already know.

[Freezerbaby]

Are we talking ROF Golden Frieza or one that trained more to maintain his power? I think if he trained a bit more he would give Hit a nice run for his money. However i dont believe Frieza is tactical enough to defeat him.

Unfortunately the Frieza we were shown in ROF performed really bad when it comes to tactic, whereas namek Frieza was really good at this, he first was toying with goku then showed only half his strenght to defeat him, saved his full power for later and by the time he found himself cornered by ssj goku he blew up the planet allowing five minutes for the final fight so that either he would win the battle or goku would die because of the explosion

Hmm but the question is was that tactical or lazy? He kept saying each transformation was more than enough. Good point though!

Either way though i sort of meant more in terms of countering attacks and such. I dont see Frieza figuring out why he cant land a punch on Hit when hes standing still for instance. Just doesnt seem like that type of fighter generally.

That's right, I don't see frieza figuring hit's timeskip technique out either, but I do see him blowing the planet up just like he's already done twice, so unless Hit stopped him from doing so, frieza would win the fight since he always survives explosions of planets

[GodKaio-Ken]

Unfortunately the Frieza we were shown in ROF performed really bad when it comes to tactic, whereas namek Frieza was really good at this, he first was toying with goku then showed only half his strenght to defeat him, saved his full power for later and by the time he found himself cornered by ssj goku he blew up the planet allowing five minutes for the final fight so that either he would win the battle or goku would die because of the explosion

Hmm but the question is was that tactical or lazy? He kept saying each transformation was more than enough. Good point though!

Either way though i sort of meant more in terms of countering attacks and such. I dont see Frieza figuring out why he cant land a punch on Hit when hes standing still for instance. Just doesnt seem like that type of fighter generally.

That's right, I don't see frieza figuring hit's timeskip technique out either, but I do see him blowing the planet up just like he's already done twice, so unless Hit stopped him from doing so, frieza would win the fight since he always survives explosions of planets

Thats a good point too. If Hit can survive in space it hasnt been stated so we have to assume he cant at this point.

Unless he has some sort of technique that allows him to escape between dimensions and end up FAR away on another planet returning he would die. Also a thing its never shown he can do. So Frieza has a decent chance if he goes that route of immediate destruction.

Hit would have to time skip (if it even works on Golden Frieza who has trained some) and instant kill.

[Khin]

That's right, I don't see frieza figuring hit's timeskip technique out either, but I do see him blowing the planet up just like he's already done twice, so unless Hit stopped him from doing so, frieza would win the fight since he always survives explosions of planets

Thats a good point too. If Hit can survive in space it hasnt been stated so we have to assume he cant at this point.

Hit was shown outside the dome of the tournament arena when he stopped Frost from stealing the cube in episode 35. The nameless planet was said to be void of atmosphere/air, so Hit most likely can survive in space.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The reason why the Time-Skip didn't work during the tournament is because Goku out-speed the Time-Skip or if used the manga, he outpowered it. So Goku is saying that even without the Kaioken, the Time-Skip won't work, to which Hit agreed and didn't even try to used it even when he was trouble. So Goku's growth is at least 10x that during the Champa Saga.

Goku didn't go full power until the last minute of the Golden Freeza fight, to which Freeza followed and went all out. Even then, Goku didn't die in one hit despite being overwhelmed. Also, Black took Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks ganging up on him with eased. He literally danced around them, while Beerus and Whis said that if Goku and Vegeta worked together, they would be able to handle Freeza easily. So Black was already stronger than Golden Freeza, yet Vegeta and Goku managed to overwhelmed Black at points. On top of that, we have seen group fights against stronger opponents where the power gap wasn't nearly that big. None of the Z-Fighters could barely hurt Nappa despite working together. Piccolo had a power over 3,000 with the rest over the 2,000 mark. Nappa's power is general said to be either 4 or 5 thousand. Yet, none of that could really overwhelmed Nappa. Which means the power gap between Golden Freeza and Goku and Vegeta wasn't that huge if both of them together could easily beat him, using Whis and Beerus' words.

I have backed up all my claims with statements and scene from the series. So don't know what you're talking about.

Not sure where you're getting the idea that Kaioken wouldn't be taken into account when it's part of his arsenal. Sounds like desperate reach to me. Saying that SSB Goku can ignore Time skip since he said it wouldn't work doesn't even begin to make sense.

Black dodged all of them one at a time while using Zamasu as a meat shield due to his immortality, then picking them off 1v1 due to his superior power to them individually. I don't know how you're coming to the conclusion that Black at that time is stronger than Frieza based on your subjective interpretation. It's blatantly stated otherwise, so it doesn't really matter how you interpreted the fight. Goku's kicks could faze Merged Zamasu despite there being a multifold power difference. 70% Frieza could blow back SSJ Goku despite an almost 2x difference.

There is no problem with Goku and Vegeta taking down Frieza together even with that gap. Goku's God Kamehameha multiplier was big enough to put him above Merged Zamasu's power level and rip his face off. That in conjunction with whatever Vegeta has would kill Golden Frieza outright.

When was Golden Freeza stronger than Super Saiyan Blue? That's what he is talking about. Some people extrapolated the context by saying Golden Freeza's strength will always be greater than Super Saiyan Blue's. This is not the intention. Goku and Vegeta have become stronger since then. There is no way they could tell how strong Golden Freeza is in comparison to current Goku because Freeza was killed. And if we take what they say as literal as possible, Goku Black was defeated by Goku. But we know it wasn't Goku directly. So no, they aren't talking about things we didn't already know.

Right now and any point before that, since it isn't talking about any specific event on top of using present tense. The rest of your post isn't relevant to anything. This is basic comprehension.

[Simere]

Right now and any point before that, since it isn't talking about any specific event on top of using present tense. The rest of your post isn't relevant to anything. This is basic comprehension.

It is basic, and no one but you is comprehending it that way. It's clearly describing each rival as when they were current.

But, once again, It doesn't matter to begin with since their opinions aren't determinative of anything.

[Bullza]

So hypothetical Hit vs Golden Frieza? What are we looking at here?

U6 Hit not using his lethal attacks or Time Skip powers like how he fought SSJB Goku at first would stand no chance against Golden Frieza.

U6 Hit not using his lethal attacks but using Time Skip powers would easily beat Golden Frieza in the same manner he beat SSJB Vegeta.

Current Hit using his lethal attacks and Time Skip powers would kill Golden Frieza in the exact same way he "killed" SSJB Goku. Except unlike Goku he'd stay dead because Frieza isn't the combat genius Goku is and would never think to fire a blast to reset his heart.

In a fight to the death Hit would win every time. Now a fight between Hit and Black....that's trickier.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Right now and any point before that, since it isn't talking about any specific event on top of using present tense. The rest of your post isn't relevant to anything. This is basic comprehension.

It is basic, and no one but you is comprehending it that way. It's clearly describing each rival as when they were current.

But, once again, It doesn't matter to begin with since their opinions aren't determinative of anything.

What's your point? It doesn't matter if I'm the only one interpreting it that way. Using that as an argument against my point is a fallacy. There is no specific event tied to the statement. It doesn't say "during their fight, Frieza surpassed Super Saiyan Blue". Every other article is specific when talking about a certain time period.

No the article isn't limiting characters to when they were current. Beerus' article talks about his fight with Goku, not anything he did after that, like destroying Zamasu. None of the articles have anything to do with a specific time period unless specified.

[Simere]

What's your point? It doesn't matter if I'm the only one interpreting it that way. Using that as an argument against my point is a fallacy.

Don't call out fallacies where none exist. Not everything I say has to be an argument, and that wasn't one.

No the article isn't limiting characters to when they were current. Beerus' article talks about his fight with Goku, not anything he did after that, like destroying Zamasu.

Yeah, that's exactly the point. It's weird how you can make the point but not understand its meaning. The start of the article establishes the retrospective narrative:

A thorough analysis of all the tough foes from throughout the series!

We’re looking back on all the rivals who have traded blows with Goku

And each description of the rival focuses only on what they did when they were the current rival of the series. How they entered Goku's world in Super and the highlights of their character.

Guess what, Freeza isn't the current ruling Emperor of multiple planets right now, either.

Once again, their opinions mean nothing even if you were right.

[TheUltimateNinja]

So hypothetical Hit vs Golden Frieza? What are we looking at here?

U6 Hit not using his lethal attacks or Time Skip powers like how he fought SSJB Goku at first would stand no chance against Golden Frieza.

Wait, what? Hit would easily destroy Frieza with or without his powers. Unless you're talking about back when we first saw him before he had any improvements. In that case he would certainly face some trouble, but I'm sure he could last long enough for Frieza's stamina to deplete.

Anyway, Frieza is really being overhyped in this thread. He's done nothing to show that he was so far above Goku that he'd even be superior to current SSBlue Goku. All he did was brag about how he could easily take Goku down, but as we've seen when he got desperate against SSJ Goku back on Namek, his taunts are basically meaningless.

And even if he could effortlessly beat Goku, this still doesn't suggest a huge gap as back when the series was still using power levels people got destroyed with relatively small gaps.

[HeroR]

Wait, what? Hit would easily destroy Frieza with or without his powers. Unless you're talking about back when we first saw him before he had any improvements. In that case he would certainly face some trouble, but I'm sure he could last long enough for Frieza's stamina to deplete.

Anyway, Frieza is really being overhyped in this thread. He's done nothing to show that he was so far above Goku that he'd even be superior to current SSBlue Goku. All he did was brag about how he could easily take Goku down, but as we've seen when he got desperate against SSJ Goku back on Namek, his taunts are basically meaningless.

And even if he could effortlessly beat Goku, this still doesn't suggest a huge gap as back when the series was still using power levels people got destroyed with relatively small gaps.

Golden Freeza was clearly superior to Goku in the Resurrection 'F' Saga, especially compared to the movie. However, people exaggerate when they claim that Freeza at full power could kill Goku instantly. Goku only said that Freeza could kick his butt and he did, but even at full power, Freeza could one-hit kill Goku, despite his best attempts. He didn't even knock him out of his god form despite the beatdown and Goku was in better shape once Freeza's stamina tanked. On top of all that, Beerus said that Goku and Vegeta together could beat Freeza easily, yet Goku, Vegeta, and Future Trunks together couldn't overwhelm Black who literally danced around them at one point. The same Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks who both later overwhelmed Black at points, who got stronger.

So the power gap between Golden Freeza and Goku was never that vast. Maybe a couple of million if we're using numbers. This is the same series that had Nappa, who had a power level of around 4,000, trashed Piccolo who was in the high 3,000s. Vegeta also dominated Cui and practically killed him in one hit when there was only 6,000 different between them. The margin between equal and curb stump battle is extremely small in this series.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Seriously, they still think Golden Freeza is stronger than SSB? They are gone, Goku and Vegeta are much stronger.

To begin with, Goku and Vegeta trained 3 years in RoSaT
They can say that they have not shown little progress, but 3 years is a lot. They did not have an opponent in whom their improvement of power became more evident (as happened with Vegeta and Black).
Goku and Vegeta have reached their limit is bullshit, we have already seen in the Saga Black Vegeta in a few months getting stronger, it was just to do drama. In the manga is not even quoted.

Have they stopped to think that the fact that Goku and Vegeta in almost the entire tournament need only use the base forms and Super Saiyan to defeat almost all the enemies of the Universe 6, shows the result of the training?
In the manga, they could defeat Hit even more easily and so the improvement would become evident.

They had Zenkais in the fight against Black (including Black himself after the second fight claims that Goku would come back stronger), Vegeta trained and completely dominated Black, Goku was able to hurt even Gattai Zamasu, fight in sync with vegeta and even now continue the Training with Whis. Goku with his Ki managed to break the dimension of Hit and tied the fight

[Bullza]

Wait, what? Hit would easily destroy Frieza with or without his powers.

When Hit fought SSJB Goku at the Tournament and didn't use his Time Skip powers or his killing techniques he was clearly outmatched by Goku. That's why he urged him to use his powers.

Golden Frieza was probably still stronger than that Goku so he should be able to gain the upper hand on Hit in the same way.

Golden Frieza should have the higher power level than Hit back then.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Golden Freeza was clearly superior to Goku in the Resurrection 'F' Saga, especially compared to the movie.

I'm not denying that Frieza was stronger, I'm saying that his lead wasn't very large. Goku was still able to put up a fight, if the lead was really so huge Goku would have been getting completely thrashed the entire time and would have been knocked out or at least beaten into base very quickly.

So the power gap between Golden Freeza and Goku was never that vast. Maybe a couple of million if we're using numbers. This is the same series that had Nappa, who had a power level of around 4,000, trashed Piccolo who was in the high 3,000s. Vegeta also dominated Cui and practically killed him in one hit when there was only 6,000 different between them. The margin between equal and curb stump battle is extremely small in this series.

A few million is too small since by this point their power levels are in the trillions at least, however I do agree that the gap isn't very big, 20% at most.

[Zamasu55]

So hypothetical Hit vs Golden Frieza? What are we looking at here?

U6 Hit not using his lethal attacks or Time Skip powers like how he fought SSJB Goku at first would stand no chance against Golden Frieza.

U6 Hit not using his lethal attacks but using Time Skip powers would easily beat Golden Frieza in the same manner he beat SSJB Vegeta.

Current Hit using his lethal attacks and Time Skip powers would kill Golden Frieza in the exact same way he "killed" SSJB Goku. Except unlike Goku he'd stay dead because Frieza isn't the combat genius Goku is and would never think to fire a blast to reset his heart.

In a fight to the death Hit would win every time. Now a fight between Hit and Black....that's trickier.

Hit is no match for Black.