Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Wait, what? Hit would easily destroy Frieza with or without his powers.

When Hit fought SSJB Goku at the Tournament and didn't use his Time Skip powers or his killing techniques he was clearly outmatched by Goku. That's why he urged him to use his powers.

Golden Frieza was probably still stronger than that Goku so he should be able to gain the upper hand on Hit in the same way.

Golden Frieza should have the higher power level than Hit back then.

It's impossible to say Golden Freeza was still stronger. Even before Goku trained for three years, he trained for at least eight months with Whis. And as others pointed out, the power gap between Golden Freeza was that big.

So Hit could be physically stronger than Golden Freeza and still fall behind Goku since he has gotten stronger.

Seriously, they still think Golden Freeza is stronger than SSB? They are gone, Goku and Vegeta are much stronger.

To begin with, Goku and Vegeta trained 3 years in RoSaT
They can say that they have not shown little progress, but 3 years is a lot. They did not have an opponent in whom their improvement of power became more evident (as happened with Vegeta and Black).
Goku and Vegeta have reached their limit is bullshit, we have already seen in the Saga Black Vegeta in a few months getting stronger, it was just to do drama. In the manga is not even quoted.

Have they stopped to think that the fact that Goku and Vegeta in almost the entire tournament need only use the base forms and Super Saiyan to defeat almost all the enemies of the Universe 6, shows the result of the training?
In the manga, they could defeat Hit even more easily and so the improvement would become evident.

They had Zenkais in the fight against Black (including Black himself after the second fight claims that Goku would come back stronger), Vegeta trained and completely dominated Black, Goku was able to hurt even Gattai Zamasu, fight in sync with vegeta and even now continue the Training with Whis. Goku with his Ki managed to break the dimension of Hit and tied the fight

As a form, Golden Freeza surpasses Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan by a good margin. So it isn't wrong to say Golden Freeza is stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

You can't used the manga with the anime like that. For one, we never saw Goku and Vegeta fight Golden Freeza. Two, Hit is generally weaker in the manga. He got overwhelmed by Super Saiyan God and didn't improved. He only held back his true power because he was out of practice. Them beating the U6 fighter in their base and Super Saiyan forms doesn't really show growth since all of them are weaker than Golden Freeza. Goku in the anime and movie smashed true form Freeza without transformating.

Zenkais are not a thing. Not even Black got them since he didn't heal from near death. He only got stronger the more he fought, which is something different as Vegeta himself noted in Episode 62. Fighting in sync with Vegeta has nothing to do with growth since they could always fight in sync. They just don't want to.

[Bullza]

Hit is no match for Black.

He could probably give him a run for his money. Would his Time Skip powers improve faster than Blacks strenght increase? If he froze him and then tried to kill him would the damage then make Black even stronger to the point that the Time Skip wouldn't work until he then further improved it so that it could and so on?

I'd say Black was more powerful but I don't know if the Time Skip would or wouldn't work on him and whether he has the fighting smarts to get around it like Goku could. I doubt he'd be able to predict Hit's moves ahead of time like Goku could.

It's impossible to say Golden Freeza was still stronger. Even before Goku trained for three years, he trained for at least eight months with Whis. And as others pointed out, the power gap between Golden Freeza was that big.

Well I wasn't taking into account their 8 months of training. I'm just going by how Goku and Vegeta were supposed to have only gotten a little stronger by the Tournament.

Golden Frieza was more than a little stronger. For them to go from being a decent amount weaker than Golden to a fair amount stronger than Hit who would be stronger than Golden Frieza would seem to go against them being near there limits.

Technically Hit could be stronger but I'd say in terms of raw power Golden Frieza would be superior though his skills would be far inferior so wouldn't stand a chance in a fight.

[TheSaiyanGod]

As a form, Golden Freeza surpasses Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan by a good margin. So it isn't wrong to say Golden Freeza is stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

You can't used the manga with the anime like that. For one, we never saw Goku and Vegeta fight Golden Freeza. Two, Hit is generally weaker in the manga. He got overwhelmed by Super Saiyan God and didn't improved. He only held back his true power because he was out of practice. Them beating the U6 fighter in their base and Super Saiyan forms doesn't really show growth since all of them are weaker than Golden Freeza. Goku in the anime and movie smashed true form Freeza without transformating.

Zenkais are not a thing. Not even Black got them since he didn't heal from near death. He only got stronger the more he fought, which is something different as Vegeta himself noted in Episode 62. Fighting in sync with Vegeta has nothing to do with growth since they could always fight in sync. They just don't want to.

I meant that the fact that they only need the base or the SSJ to defeat the enemies of the Universe 6 may indicate yes growth. If even with this training, Frost in his third form was superior to Goku's base form, and Kyabe in SSJ was able to hold a fight against Vegeta SSJ. If they were that strong then the training was worthwhile as they countered versions of Goku and Vegeta even stronger.

Golden Freeza was stronger than Goku and Vegeta SSGSS, but only in the arc of the Resurrection of F. After that they trained hard with Whis until the arrival of Champa and Vados, trained 3 years in RoSaT, and became stronger in the Black Saga. They suffered Zenkai. As in this picture, Goku after losing in the second fight (multiple piercings of Black's swords) is said to be coming back stronger:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

They had Zenkais a few times, when they had become close to death and had to be saved by resistance or gone back into the past. Vegeta completely dominated Black, Goku managed to hurt Gattai Zamasu. Are you telling me that Freeza is still stronger than they are? Because, consequently, he would be stronger than Black and Hit.
Goku and Vegeta fought in synchrony, with the same attacks from Gattai Zamasu. If Vegeta was much stronger, Goku would not follow and lose easier but the two were on the same level in the third fight

[HeroR]

Hit is no match for Black.

He could probably give him a run for his money. Would his Time Skip powers improve faster than Blacks strenght increase? If he froze him and then tried to kill him would the damage then make Black even stronger to the point that the Time Skip wouldn't work until he then further improved it so that it could and so on?

I'd say Black was more powerful but I don't know if the Time Skip would or wouldn't work on him and whether he has the fighting smarts to get around it like Goku could. I doubt he'd be able to predict Hit's moves ahead of time like Goku could.

It's impossible to say Golden Freeza was still stronger. Even before Goku trained for three years, he trained for at least eight months with Whis. And as others pointed out, the power gap between Golden Freeza was that big.

Well I wasn't taking into account their 8 months of training. I'm just going by how Goku and Vegeta were supposed to have only gotten a little stronger by the Tournament.

Golden Frieza was more than a little stronger. For them to go from being a decent amount weaker than Golden to a fair amount stronger than Hit who would be stronger than Golden Frieza would seem to go against them being near there limits.

Technically Hit could be stronger but I'd say in terms of raw power Golden Frieza would be superior though his skills would be far inferior so wouldn't stand a chance in a fight.

It doesn't take much of a power difference to stump someone. Piccolo was around 3,000 to Nappa's 4,000 give or take and Nappa basically one-shotted. The same with Vegeta and Cui who only had a 6,000 power difference between them that ended in a curb stomp.

Golden Freeza beat up Goku, but Goku was able to fight back and even get hits in. So the power difference couldn't have been that dramatic, otherwise Goku would have been in far worst shape before Freeza's power dropped.

Also, Vegeta made his near their limits line after they trained with Whis for an additional eight months at the least. So they could have easily surpassed Golden Freeza in that timeframe as far as we know. After all, Goku's power went up 10x in about a year's time. So him only having a 1.5x increase would be huge.

Hit could very well be superior to Golden Freeza power-wise. There's nothing proving otherwise.

[HeroR]

As a form, Golden Freeza surpasses Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan by a good margin. So it isn't wrong to say Golden Freeza is stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

You can't used the manga with the anime like that. For one, we never saw Goku and Vegeta fight Golden Freeza. Two, Hit is generally weaker in the manga. He got overwhelmed by Super Saiyan God and didn't improved. He only held back his true power because he was out of practice. Them beating the U6 fighter in their base and Super Saiyan forms doesn't really show growth since all of them are weaker than Golden Freeza. Goku in the anime and movie smashed true form Freeza without transformating.

Zenkais are not a thing. Not even Black got them since he didn't heal from near death. He only got stronger the more he fought, which is something different as Vegeta himself noted in Episode 62. Fighting in sync with Vegeta has nothing to do with growth since they could always fight in sync. They just don't want to.

I meant that the fact that they only need the base or the SSJ to defeat the enemies of the Universe 6 may indicate yes growth. If even with this training, Frost in his third form was superior to Goku's base form, and Kyabe in SSJ was able to hold a fight against Vegeta SSJ. If they were that strong then the training was worthwhile as they countered versions of Goku and Vegeta even stronger.

Golden Freeza was stronger than Goku and Vegeta SSGSS, but only in the arc of the Resurrection of F. After that they trained hard with Whis until the arrival of Champa and Vados, trained 3 years in RoSaT, and became stronger in the Black Saga. They suffered Zenkai. As in this picture, Goku after losing in the second fight (multiple piercings of Black's swords) is said to be coming back stronger:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

They had Zenkais a few times, when they had become close to death and had to be saved by resistance or gone back into the past. Vegeta completely dominated Black, Goku managed to hurt Gattai Zamasu. Are you telling me that Freeza is still stronger than they are? Because, consequently, he would be stronger than Black and Hit.
Goku and Vegeta fought in synchrony, with the same attacks from Gattai Zamasu. If Vegeta was much stronger, Goku would not follow and lose easier but the two were on the same level in the third fight

Vegeta overwhelmed Black because he trained for six months, not because he got stronger from near death. Goku also had to go all out to the point of breaking his arms to hurt Merged Zamasu.

As I said, Zenkais hasn't been a thing since the end of the Freeza Saga and when Cell came back. Super Buu specifically noted that Gohan didn't get stronger after Denda healed him. Plus, neither Gohan or Trunks got stronger than the androids in the future despite all their near death experiences. All we have is Toriyama's statement that Saiyans get stronger the longer they fight, which isn't related to Zenkais since those are about recovering from near death.

Goku and Vegeta beating up U6 doesn't really show their growth. Only that everyone up to Hit was weaker than Golden Freeza, but stronger than true form Freeza.

[Hugo Boss]

When was Golden Freeza stronger than Super Saiyan Blue? That's what he is talking about. Some people extrapolated the context by saying Golden Freeza's strength will always be greater than Super Saiyan Blue's. This is not the intention. Goku and Vegeta have become stronger since then. There is no way they could tell how strong Golden Freeza is in comparison to current Goku because Freeza was killed. And if we take what they say as literal as possible, Goku Black was defeated by Goku. But we know it wasn't Goku directly. So no, they aren't talking about things we didn't already know.

Right now and any point before that, since it isn't talking about any specific event on top of using present tense. The rest of your post isn't relevant to anything. This is basic comprehension.

Excuse me, read the entire article and then argue about basic comprehension. For example, read the part that it says Freeza is ruling over numerous planets. Is he doing that right now in the story? Or the part that it says Merged Zamasu is so strong that others cannot approach him. Vegetto send hi.

And, I don't know if this advice will be of any use to you, but, depending of luck, people who don't pay attention to details they don't last long in a good job.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

What's your point? It doesn't matter if I'm the only one interpreting it that way. Using that as an argument against my point is a fallacy.

Don't call out fallacies where none exist. Not everything I say has to be an argument, and that wasn't one.

No the article isn't limiting characters to when they were current. Beerus' article talks about his fight with Goku, not anything he did after that, like destroying Zamasu.

Yeah, that's exactly the point. It's weird how you can make the point but not understand its meaning. The start of the article establishes the retrospective narrative:

A thorough analysis of all the tough foes from throughout the series!

We’re looking back on all the rivals who have traded blows with Goku

And each description of the rival focuses only on what they did when they were the current rival of the series. How they entered Goku's world in Super and the highlights of their character.

Guess what, Freeza isn't the current ruling Emperor of multiple planets right now, either.

Once again, their opinions mean nothing even if you were right.

The point of the article is to list the danger levels of people that Goku fought. Nothing in there necessarily refers to any specific time period unless clarified. "Frieza surpasses Super Saiyan Blue" isn't linked to any era and the present tense of the statement makes it current. There isn't any reason to complicate everything.

Excuse me, read the entire article and then argue about basic comprehension. For example, read the part that it says Freeza is ruling over numerous planets. Is he doing that right now in the story? Or the part that it says Merged Zamasu is so strong that others cannot approach him. Vegetto send hi.

And, I don't know if this advice will be of any use to you, but, depending of luck, people who don't pay attention to details they don't last long in a good job.

In those specific instances, it clarifies the time period that it refers to, while no such thing is done for the power statement. End of story. I don't need your advice. I could just as easily say that those who add details that aren't necessary and/or don't exist won't last in a good job. Means nothing.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vegeta overwhelmed Black because he trained for six months, not because he got stronger from near death. Goku also had to go all out to the point of breaking his arms to hurt Merged Zamasu.

As I said, Zenkais hasn't been a thing since the end of the Freeza Saga and when Cell came back. Super Buu specifically noted that Gohan didn't get stronger after Denda healed him. Plus, neither Gohan or Trunks got stronger than the androids in the future despite all their near death experiences. All we have is Toriyama's statement that Saiyans get stronger the longer they fight, which isn't related to Zenkais since those are about recovering from near death.

Goku and Vegeta beating up U6 doesn't really show their growth. Only that everyone up to Hit was weaker than Golden Freeza, but stronger than true form Freeza.

Gohan and Trunks were far inferior to the androids in the Future. The Zenkai would have to be too large to reach them, but that does not mean it will not occur. The difference between Gohan and Super Boo Gotenks was also gigantic and Zenkai would not do any good.

I know that Vegeta defeated Black because of the training, I just wanted to say they are much stronger since the arc of the F resurrection and so there is no way Golden Freeza still be superior to them.

Black stated that Goku would come back stronger, he did not know RoSaT (so much that he was surprised with the increase of power of Vegeta), then this would be something related to the Zenkai. Even though Black's is not exactly a Zenkai (it's totally meaningless and unexplained), these things are related (so much so that he says he grew stronger because of the Saiyans' body), so he knew Goku would come back strong. The Zenkais may have been a little forgotten but they still happen and in that saga it apparently happened.

Goku broke his arms but the Kamehameha with his full power was able to hurt Gattai Zamasu, shows that he is also much stronger

Hit was weaker than Freeza in brute strength (just as he was weaker than Goku too), but overall with all his techniques I believe he can beat Freeza

[Simere]

The point of the article is to list the danger levels of people that Goku fought. Nothing in there necessarily refers to any specific time period unless clarified. "Frieza surpasses Super Saiyan Blue" isn't linked to any era and the present tense of the statement makes it current. There isn't any reason to complicate everything.

Everything is referring to when they were the rival of the story. That's why it only covers what they did at that time—as you yourself noted and didn't understand when you brought up Beerus—and why the Golden Freeza statement doesn't extend beyond his arc.

Yours is the more complicated reading. Complicated, and yet simultaneously based on nothing. You take this quote:

"An emperor ruling over numerous planets. As Golden Freeza, his strength surpasses Super Saiyan Blue."

Where the first sentence is using the present participle ruling, you claim that it's referring to the past—which would require a phrasing like "that ruled" instead. The very next sentence you somehow manage to acknowledge to be in the present tense, so I suppose it has to be a case of selective reading.

Also, their opinions on power scaling(if "danger level" is such) are worth no more than yours or mine, are you going to acknowledge that?

[Freezerbaby]

My thoughts:

-Golden Freeza is superior to ssjblue by a long shot.
-His weakness we all know by now allowed goku to turn the fight over and win the battle.
-In terms of raw strenght, Hit is no match for Golden Freeza.
-However, in a real fight, there´s almost no way for freeza to defeat hit, because freeza would never figure Hit´s timeskip-killing techniques out, his only hope is hit no being able to survive in vacuum or a giant explosion like that of a planet.( no doubt Freeza would resort to this when realizing that his back is to the wall)
-Bases on his feats, ssjrose is far above Golden freeza.
- We can´t possibly know how stronger goku and vegeta became after training in the rosat for three years, my guess is that knowing Golden freeza´s strenght extent, they got strong enough to make sure they´d defeat an opponent at least as powerful as golden freeza.
- As to them beating u6 warrios in ssj, my thought is pretty clear, two base forms theory is back. Both frost or cabba are nowhere near to final form freeza, in fact, cabba turned ssj for the first time, so I´m betting they are on in between namek and cell arc levels, that´s why goku and vegeta only needed to go ssj to defeat them. In addition to this, it´s been pretty outright stated along super that their (old, not ki-condensed)base forms never got any improvement (base goku> namek freeza, base vegeta(super)= cabba (never transformed into ssj before)).

[TheSaiyanGod]

-Golden Freeza is superior to ssjblue by a long shot.
-His weakness we all know by now allowed goku to turn the fight over and win the battle.
-In terms of raw strenght, Hit is no match for Golden Freeza.
-However, in a real fight, there´s almost no way for freeza to defeat hit, because freeza would never figure Hit´s timeskip-killing techniques out, his only hope is hit no being able to survive in vacuum or a giant explosion like that of a planet.( no doubt Freeza would resort to this when realizing that his back is to the wall)
-Bases on his feats, ssjrose is far above Golden freeza.
- We can´t possibly know how stronger goku and vegeta became after training in the rosat for three years, my guess is that knowing Golden freeza´s strenght extent, they got strong enough to make sure they´d defeat an opponent at least as powerful as golden freeza.
- As to them beating u6 warrios in ssj, my thought is pretty clear, two base forms theory is back. Both frost or cabba are nowhere near to final form freeza, in fact, cabba turned ssj for the first time, so I´m betting they are on in between namek and cell arc levels, that´s why goku and vegeta only needed to go ssj to defeat them. In addition to this, it´s been pretty outright stated along super that their (old, not ki-condensed)base forms never got any improvement (base goku> namek freeza, base vegeta(super)= cabba (never transformed into ssj before)).

Freeza was not much superior to SSB. We saw that Goku could match the fight several times, hitting Freeza (and causing him to take damage), defending from his blows. Even in the end we see that Goku was still hiding his power and when he used he was able to fight him more easily (even though he was inferior).

When there is a fight between Golden Freeza and Hit I consider that Freeza has full knowledge of Hit's abilities, it is the fairest. But even so I think that Hit has a chance to win, after all he was much more powerful than in the tournament managing to fight with an even stronger Goku (but in strength still inferior to Golden Freeza0

And considering that they knew of the strength of Golden Freeza and hoped that the participants in Universe 6 would be very strong, they trained not only to overcome this power but to become even stronger. You can not tell how much they got stronger but 3 years is a long time, somehow they managed to get a lot stronger.

There is no way Kyabe can have the same level as Freeza in Namekusei. The base forms of Goku and Vegeta are much stronger, even without the use of God Ki and Kyabe, Frost and Magetta still managed to face them

[HeroR]

Vegeta overwhelmed Black because he trained for six months, not because he got stronger from near death. Goku also had to go all out to the point of breaking his arms to hurt Merged Zamasu.

As I said, Zenkais hasn't been a thing since the end of the Freeza Saga and when Cell came back. Super Buu specifically noted that Gohan didn't get stronger after Denda healed him. Plus, neither Gohan or Trunks got stronger than the androids in the future despite all their near death experiences. All we have is Toriyama's statement that Saiyans get stronger the longer they fight, which isn't related to Zenkais since those are about recovering from near death.

Goku and Vegeta beating up U6 doesn't really show their growth. Only that everyone up to Hit was weaker than Golden Freeza, but stronger than true form Freeza.

Gohan and Trunks were far inferior to the androids in the Future. The Zenkai would have to be too large to reach them, but that does not mean it will not occur. The difference between Gohan and Super Boo Gotenks was also gigantic and Zenkai would not do any good.

I know that Vegeta defeated Black because of the training, I just wanted to say they are much stronger since the arc of the F resurrection and so there is no way Golden Freeza still be superior to them.

Black stated that Goku would come back stronger, he did not know RoSaT (so much that he was surprised with the increase of power of Vegeta), then this would be something related to the Zenkai. Even though Black's is not exactly a Zenkai (it's totally meaningless and unexplained), these things are related (so much so that he says he grew stronger because of the Saiyans' body), so he knew Goku would come back strong. The Zenkais may have been a little forgotten but they still happen and in that saga it apparently happened.

Goku broke his arms but the Kamehameha with his full power was able to hurt Gattai Zamasu, shows that he is also much stronger

Hit was weaker than Freeza in brute strength (just as he was weaker than Goku too), but overall with all his techniques I believe he can beat Freeza

Gohan and Trunks got their butts kicked for the thirteen years and you're telling me that with all those Zenkais and training they couldn't surpass one of the androids? Gohan didn't even reached half of Android 17's power before dying. Plus, Super Buu with Piccolo's knowledge would have sensed the power different within Gohan after he healed. He said specifically that Gohan didn't get stronger at all. That is in the original manga, so it is no speculation that Gohan didn't get a Zenkai. The manga outright told us he didn't.

Black could have been easily talking about Goku training himself and returning stronger, not Zenkais. He didn't know when Goku would be returning, only that it would be fairly soon.

Black never got Zenkais, Vegeta called it something different. Zenkais is when you recover from near death, not just randomly get hurt. Goku also overclocked himself against Merged Zamasu. That wasn't his natural power, that was him dumping everything he had into one blast.

It's impossible to say that Hit was physically weaker than Freeza since no such statement has ever been given on Hit's power compared to Freeza or Goku's power compared to Freeza during the tournament. So that is all speculation.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Gohan and Trunks got their butts kicked for the thirteen years and you're telling me that with all those Zenkais and training they couldn't surpass one of the androids? Gohan didn't even reached half of Android 17's power before dying. Plus, Super Buu with Piccolo's knowledge would have sensed the power different within Gohan after he healed. He said specifically that Gohan didn't get stronger at all. That is in the original manga, so it is no speculation that Gohan didn't get a Zenkai. The manga outright told us he didn't.

Black could have been easily talking about Goku training himself and returning stronger, not Zenkais. He didn't know when Goku would be returning, only that it would be fairly soon.

Black never got Zenkais, Vegeta called it something different. Zenkais is when you recover from near death, not just randomly get hurt. Goku also overclocked himself against Merged Zamasu. That wasn't his natural power, that was him dumping everything he had into one blast.

It's impossible to say that Hit was physically weaker than Freeza since no such statement has ever been given on Hit's power compared to Freeza or Goku's power compared to Freeza during the tournament. So that is all speculation.

We do not know how many times Gohan and Trunks faced the androids, nor how many Zenkais they got. When they appeared Gohan was still a child, do you think he will face them knowing that they have killed all the other warriors? They had far superior power than Freeza, and Kid Gohan did not come close to that. He started to face them when he thought he would have a chance to win.
Not to mention that according to Android 17, it had been one year that he did not see Gohan, who was training. In other words, many of these years they may not even have faced the androids, just trained. If even then Gohan was still much inferior to them, do you think only Zenkais would solve? He could not even face them for this to happen.

Super Boo never explicitly said that Gohan had not increased his power, he just said, '' He is healed, but it does not mean that he has increased his power, he is just postponing his death. '' This speech implies that Boo does not know about Zenkai, he's just guessing that healing will not make Gohan be able to defeat him.
This would be as if Zenkai no longer existed, but still exists. It was ignored a good part of the time after the Saga Freeza (appeared in the Saga Cell), but still exists. In the Black Saga they returned with this indirectly but only quoting that the body of the Saiyajins gets stronger every time it is defeated.

Zenkai is a name invented by fans. So it could not be said in the anime. Although Black does not exactly have a Zenkai, it's something similar in anime.Black did not understand how Vegeta got so strong in such a short time so there was no way to imagine that Goku would train. He said this because Goku was badly injured (a giant hole in his chest and several punctures leaving him unable to move), and as he was a Saiyan, he would come back stronger.
It would be strange if Goku could do all that with Gattai Zamasu if he had not increased his power. It was a Kamehameha with full force, so all the power of Goku was there, besides the fact that Black said that he was stronger.

Goku SSB was at an advantage against Hitto in heads up. His Tokitobashi had been defeated and he had no other techniques to use before increasing her time

[Freezerbaby]

My thoughts:

-Golden Freeza is superior to ssjblue by a long shot.
-His weakness we all know by now allowed goku to turn the fight over and win the battle.
-In terms of raw strenght, Hit is no match for Golden Freeza.
-However, in a real fight, there´s almost no way for freeza to defeat hit, because freeza would never figure Hit´s timeskip-killing techniques out, his only hope is hit no being able to survive in vacuum or a giant explosion like that of a planet.( no doubt Freeza would resort to this when realizing that his back is to the wall)
-Bases on his feats, ssjrose is far above Golden freeza.
- We can´t possibly know how stronger goku and vegeta became after training in the rosat for three years, my guess is that knowing Golden freeza´s strenght extent, they got strong enough to make sure they´d defeat an opponent at least as powerful as golden freeza.
- As to them beating u6 warrios in ssj, my thought is pretty clear, two base forms theory is back. Both frost or cabba are nowhere near to final form freeza, in fact, cabba turned ssj for the first time, so I´m betting they are on in between namek and cell arc levels, that´s why goku and vegeta only needed to go ssj to defeat them. In addition to this, it´s been pretty outright stated along super that their (old, not ki-condensed)base forms never got any improvement (base goku> namek freeza, base vegeta(super)= cabba (never transformed into ssj before)).

Sorry I meant base goku <namek freeza

[HeroR]

Gohan and Trunks got their butts kicked for the thirteen years and you're telling me that with all those Zenkais and training they couldn't surpass one of the androids? Gohan didn't even reached half of Android 17's power before dying. Plus, Super Buu with Piccolo's knowledge would have sensed the power different within Gohan after he healed. He said specifically that Gohan didn't get stronger at all. That is in the original manga, so it is no speculation that Gohan didn't get a Zenkai. The manga outright told us he didn't.

Black could have been easily talking about Goku training himself and returning stronger, not Zenkais. He didn't know when Goku would be returning, only that it would be fairly soon.

Black never got Zenkais, Vegeta called it something different. Zenkais is when you recover from near death, not just randomly get hurt. Goku also overclocked himself against Merged Zamasu. That wasn't his natural power, that was him dumping everything he had into one blast.

It's impossible to say that Hit was physically weaker than Freeza since no such statement has ever been given on Hit's power compared to Freeza or Goku's power compared to Freeza during the tournament. So that is all speculation.

We do not know how many times Gohan and Trunks faced the androids, nor how many Zenkais they got. When they appeared Gohan was still a child, do you think he will face them knowing that they have killed all the other warriors? They had far superior power than Freeza, and Kid Gohan did not come close to that. He started to face them when he thought he would have a chance to win.
Not to mention that according to Android 17, it had been one year that he did not see Gohan, who was training. In other words, many of these years they may not even have faced the androids, just trained. If even then Gohan was still much inferior to them, do you think only Zenkais would solve? He could not even face them for this to happen.

Super Boo never explicitly said that Gohan had not increased his power, he just said, '' He is healed, but it does not mean that he has increased his power, he is just postponing his death. '' This speech implies that Boo does not know about Zenkai, he's just guessing that healing will not make Gohan be able to defeat him.
This would be as if Zenkai no longer existed, but still exists. It was ignored a good part of the time after the Saga Freeza (appeared in the Saga Cell), but still exists. In the Black Saga they returned with this indirectly but only quoting that the body of the Saiyajins gets stronger every time it is defeated.

Zenkai is a name invented by fans. So it could not be said in the anime. Although Black does not exactly have a Zenkai, it's something similar in anime.Black did not understand how Vegeta got so strong in such a short time so there was no way to imagine that Goku would train. He said this because Goku was badly injured (a giant hole in his chest and several punctures leaving him unable to move), and as he was a Saiyan, he would come back stronger.
It would be strange if Goku could do all that with Gattai Zamasu if he had not increased his power. It was a Kamehameha with full force, so all the power of Goku was there, besides the fact that Black said that he was stronger.

Goku SSB was at an advantage against Hitto in heads up. His Tokitobashi had been defeated and he had no other techniques to use before increasing her time

He engaged them enough to lose an arm, which is part of the reason he didn't engaged them for a year. Even then, 13 years and he wasn't half as strong as 17. Goku in six days of training and coming back from near death had a giant increase in power that took him from weaker than Saiyan Saga to 3 million.

Buu didn't have to guess. He absorbed Piccolo who knows about Saiyans power up from near death since he saw Vegeta get stronger after Krillin put a hole through him. Also, Vegeta explicitly said what Black was doing to get stronger was unusual and he got stronger as he fought, not from recovering from fatal wounds.

I know it's a fan name, which is why I hate the term. That is your assumption. Black correctly stated that Goku would be back stronger, otherwise why would he bother to return. He was shocked by the extent of Vegeta's growth, not his actual increase in power.

[TheSaiyanGod]

He engaged them enough to lose an arm, which is part of the reason he didn't engaged them for a year. Even then, 13 years and he wasn't half as strong as 17. Goku in six days of training and coming back from near death had a giant increase in power that took him from weaker than Saiyan Saga to 3 million.

Buu didn't have to guess. He absorbed Piccolo who knows about Saiyans power up from near death since he saw Vegeta get stronger after Krillin put a hole through him. Also, Vegeta explicitly said what Black was doing to get stronger was unusual and he got stronger as he fought, not from recovering from fatal wounds.

I know it's a fan name, which is why I hate the term. That is your assumption. Black correctly stated that Goku would be back stronger, otherwise why would he bother to return. He was shocked by the extent of Vegeta's growth, not his actual increase in power.

In DB the power increases vary from each character. Gotenks training 1 day in rosat managed to increase the power of fusion and the transformation of SSJ3. While Goku took years.
Even Gohan being a prodigy and training a lot in the future he did not have an orientation to increase his strength as Gohan of the past had. It varies from each character, we are not taking into account only the Zenkais, even with the trainings he could not defeat them.

We are not sure if Boo simply absorbs all the memories of the warriors or if only a few characteristics are achieved. It was never clear, he only showed knowledge of some things, in fact he should imagine that when healing from near death Saiyajins get stronger but in his speech it did not seem that he had knowledge of it.

Vegeta never clearly stated that Black increased his powers differently from the other Saiyans, which was different from Zenkai. In fact this was very confusing and we do not know how that happens.He just says that Black increases his power during the battle. Something that also happens with a Saiyajin depending on the battle. But it is quoted again that the body of a Saiyajin gets stronger when almost Dies and it happened with Goku, Vegeta and Trunks.
He said, "How did you manage to increase your power in such a short time?" He implied that Black did not know about rosat and did not know they could get so strong fast, so when he said that Goku would come back stronger was because Of his wounds that were healed, after all the Saiyajin increases his powers when he is defeated, he says so

[Bullza]

Going by the upcoming fillers Goku is supposed to be going into some forest where he'll come across Frieza, Cell and Buu. I don't know if they're going to fight or what, at this point they're nothing really unless they go with Golden Frieza and that could answer some of these recent questions as to whose stronger.

No idea why that's been so debatable though.

[Doctor.]

So, how much is this thread gonna blow up if Kuririn ends up defeating Freeza or Cell in episode 76?

[HeroR]

So, how much is this thread gonna blow up if Kuririn ends up defeating Freeza or Cell in episode 76?

That would depend if the copies are as strong as the original. Also, which version of Freeza? Namek Saga or Resurrection 'F'? Also with Cell, is it Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell?

[Doctor.]

So, how much is this thread gonna blow up if Kuririn ends up defeating Freeza or Cell in episode 76?

That would depend if the copies are as strong as the original. Also, which version of Freeza? Namek Saga or Resurrection 'F'? Also with Cell, is it Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell?

I'm sure they're gonna be as strong as the originals, otherwise they'd have no place in the episode. They may even be stronger, since Toei likes to give boosts to the antagonists.

Any version is fine. I mean, Kuririn's PL is usually agreed to be around the low millions, so beating even namek arc Freeza would be a great feat. Beating Res 'F' Freeza would prove the battle powers in Super are just completely fucked though.