The new arc will (may?) settle an old debate: Tenshinhan vs. Kuririn

[JulianStyles]

Love how your signature is a anti Tien showing. I'll be looking for you when this arc comes around.

I don't understand the point of your constant pro-Kuririn-agenda-witch-hunt when your entire agenda is transparent from the start. Not exactly the best showing if you're trying to convince people of something.

Yeah me having a discussion. Is worse than some one who's signature is a constant antagonizing statement to this subject in any board he goes to. It's that cockiness that smugness, the dismissivness that will lead to a severe shock when proven wrong. For 15 plus years. American fans have been polluted with wrong information.

[rereboy]

Here's something to think about. If the statement conflicts with evidence. Then the statement in its literal form must have a different meaning. The fact that Tien in many sources is said to be a Decendant of Aliens, the fact Akira Toriyama didn't say Tien was human when asked straight up. The fact that the Daizenshuu list Gohan and even Piccolo as Earthling. The fact that 17 and 18 are Earthlings. Then we need to say what exactly is meant by that statement. Because to me it means pure human. When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains however improbable must be the truth.

Nah, I think that's trying to bend things instead of just admitting them.

[JulianStyles]

Here's something to think about. If the statement conflicts with evidence. Then the statement in its literal form must have a different meaning. The fact that Tien in many sources is said to be a Decendant of Aliens, the fact Akira Toriyama didn't say Tien was human when asked straight up. The fact that the Daizenshuu list Gohan and even Piccolo as Earthling. The fact that 17 and 18 are Earthlings. Then we need to say what exactly is meant by that statement. Because to me it means pure human. When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains however improbable must be the truth.

Nah, I think that's trying to bend things instead of just admitting them.

Not really. Because it leaves a huge hole for doubt. Say I know nothing of dragonball. And If you tell me Krillin strongest Earthling. And I look into a DBZ bio DVD book I see under race characters Krillin,Yamcha,Roshi,Bulma,Yajorobi,Choutzu say Earthing. Then I see Gohan and Trunks under race say, Sayaian-Earthling hybrid. Then I come across Tien under Race:Decendant of the three eyed people. There is no hyphen. It's singular as saying Earthling or Sayain. There is no bending. If the creator is asked is Tenshinhan is human. And he doesn't say yes. That just adds to the pile of confusing evidence. Why not say yes if he is? Why not put -Earthling into his profile? Why participate and support in an encyclopedia that states he's a Decendant of Aliens 5 times?

It's not clear cut and dry. That's can't be disputed. Wether you believe he's a human or Earthling in the same breath as Krillin. There's reasonable doubt. Thus in aNY court of law or unbiased outlook on this subject. It will always be in favor of Tien 100% of the time. If you had to convince 12 people who never see dragonball Krillin is stronger. It simply can't be done. If your life and jail time depended on it. There is no way you can convince a jury and judge.

[DBZ Macky]

Love how your signature is a anti Tien showing. I'll be looking for you when this arc comes around.

My signature isn't an "Anti Tien showing". I love Tenshinhan as a character, and I'd have absolutely no problem even if he was stronger than Kuririn,
If you'll go as far as to say that Toriyama is a "senile piece of shit" then I'll definitely react negatively though. At the end of the day, I like both Ten and Kuririn, even though I'll admit to siding with Kuririn a bit more.

Also ask yourself this. If you think Krillin is stronger. How much stronger that Tien is he? Because it can't be that much. So then you ask yourself who would win in a fight. The lazy,insecure,non dedicated, hesitant coward man. Or the dedicated to martial arts,confident, braver one?

I'm glad you asked that, because I think I can really give weight to my argument through this. I've been making battle power lists for a little more than a year now, so I'm sorry if I come off as smug or cocky, but I'd still consider myself to know a fair bit more about "Power Levels" than your average guy... at least on YouTube (not so sure about here though ).

The thing is, I won't be in utter disbelief or shock even if Tenshinhan defeats Kuririn. Because really, power isn't everything. And I think Kuririn and Tenshinhan would be pretty close in power anyways.

First of all let me ask you, if you were to give current Tenshinhan a power level, what would it be? I'd say around 100k to 130k at his best. I've seen most people who argue Tenshinhan is stronger than Kuririn lump him in the millions or low ten millions. Let me explain why I think otherwise:

It took Goku training in 100x gravity and exploit his racial exclusive "Zenkai boosts" to reach a power level of 90k on Namek. I don't think Tenshinhan would've surpassed that level by a huge margin just from regular training on Earth, under normal gravity and normal conditions with a much, much weaker sparring partner, even if he trains regularly for almost a decade.

Sure you have outliers like Trunks and Freeza getting immensely powerful in just 4 months but that's because they're prodigies, even by space standards AND because the plot demands them to be stronger. With Tenshinhan, you don't have any excuse. It doesn't matter whether he is at 100k or 10 millions, he's irrelevant in the grander scheme of things.

With Kuririn though, we already have an official battle power for him. A whopping 75,000... and that's just for the starting of the Freeza fight.
Vegeta stated that Kuririn and Gohan's battle powers were rising. So Kuririn could easily be over 150k by the end of the Freeza battle and it won't contradict anything.

Gohan didn't lose an insane amount of power after 7 years, just a little bit. So Kuririn, who was living with Kame-sennin and was probably doing at least a little bit of exercise for staying in shape wouldn't deteriorate in power so much that Tenshinhan would've surpassed him.
So according to me, Tenshinhan and Kuririn have the same level of power with Kuririn having the unnoticeable advantage. If they were to fight, I'd be completely okay with either of them winning. And It'd definitely be a close fight.

I want not just your thoughts on this, but also everyone's else, especially Kaboom's.

[rereboy]

Not really. Because it leaves a huge hole for doubt. Say I know nothing of dragonball. And If you tell me Krillin strongest Earthling. And I look into a DBZ bio DVD book I see under race characters Krillin,Yamcha,Roshi,Bulma,Yajorobi,Choutzu say Earthing. Then I see Gohan and Trunks under race say, Sayaian-Earthling hybrid. Then I come across Tien under Race:Decendant of the three eyed people. There is no hyphen. It's singular as saying Earthling or Sayain. There is no bending. If the creator is asked is Tenshinhan is human. And he doesn't say yes. That just adds to the pile of confusing evidence. Why not say yes if he is? Why not put -Earthling into his profile? Why participate and support in an encyclopedia that states he's a Decendant of Aliens 5 times?

It's not clear cut and dry. That's can't be disputed. Wether you believe he's a human or Earthling in the same breath as Krillin. There's reasonable doubt. Thus in aNY court of law or unbiased outlook on this subject. It will always be in favor of Tien 100% of the time. If you had to convince 12 people who never see dragonball Krillin is stronger. It simply can't be done. If your life and jail time depended on it. There is no way you can convince a jury and judge.

Yes, really. You are just disregarding the expositional line by Yamcha and Toriyama's comments.

Like I said in my post, that line goes against pretty much the interpretation flow of the entire manga... but it doesn't go against hard, clear facts, it just goes against the natural/logical interpretation that most likely would exist if the line wasn't there. The fact is that in the entire manga, besides that line, there is no clear statement and no factual evidence for who is stronger after Namek and all we can do is interpret and presume who is stronger from what happens regarding the two, but it's never really clear. The natural and logical interpretation seems to favor Tenshinhan, but by no means is it actually clear. However, the expositional line by Yamcha, despite being indirect, is actually clear and allows us to compare the two without assumptions or interpretations.

Therefore, we simply can not disregard that line, even though it goes against what would be otherwise the interpretation. And that's what you are doing: disregarding the line. And Toriyama's comments that echo it. In short, you are twisting things to try to fit what you would like. A fan that knows little about Dragon Ball and about this issue has no real relevance, since it doesn't change the fact that we simply can't disregard the line and remain honest in our arguments.

[nickzambuto]

Screw all this nonsense, Krillin fanboys and Tenshinhan fanboys wasting their time arguing against one another. Really they should be teaming up, because YAMCHA is obviously the strongest human!

-The original hero, saved the day in the very first arc by defeating the main villain, Oozaru Goku. Neither Krillin nor Tenshinhan ever got even close to taking a big bad victory. Yamaha was the first, and besides him, only Goku and Gohan ever did.
-Manhandled Olibu
-Was stated to be Kaio's next strongest fighter after Goku and Vegeta
-Oneshotted Beerus
-Baseball champion
-Best hairstyles
-Badass scars
-Sokidan is the exact opposite of the Kienzan and Kikoho, which both have flaws that make them useless. While the former is unwieldy and the latter has a life-threatening ki drain, Yamcha possesses total control over the Sokidan, and it's also quick and energy efficient! The perfect technique!

The only reason he's not on U7's team is because he's too kindhearted to damn 11 other universes to destruction.

[Akyon]

Screw all this nonsense, Krillin fanboys and Tenshinhan fanboys wasting their time arguing against one another. Really they should be teaming up, because YAMCHA is obviously the strongest human!

-The original hero, saved the day in the very first arc by defeating the main villain, Oozaru Goku. Neither Krillin nor Tenshinhan ever got even close to taking a big bad victory. Yamaha was the first, and besides him, only Goku and Gohan ever did.
-Manhandled Olibu
-Was stated to be Kaio's next strongest fighter after Goku and Vegeta
-Oneshotted Beerus
-Baseball champion
-Best hairstyles
-Badass scars
-Sokidan is the exact opposite of the Kienzan and Kikoho, which both have flaws that make them useless. While the former is unwieldy and the latter has a life-threatening ki drain, Yamcha possesses total control over the Sokidan, and it's also quick and energy efficient! The perfect technique!

The only reason he's not on U7's team is because he's too kindhearted to damn 11 other universes to destruction.

This person is correct: Thread over. Go run home everyone, it's over.

[JulianStyles]

Dbz Macky

It's a shame they stop doing official power levels. I respect the conclusions you have reached. We do see the extreme dIve Gohan took in Super due to lack of training. Went from Mystic to unsure if he can go super sayain. So how deep of a dive has Krillin taken with the same lack on inactivity.

[Bansho64]

I've always seen Krillin as stronger. Not to mention that Toriyama said it and Yamcha basically said it in the Buu arc. It's as simple as that.

[JulianStyles]

Rereboy

Not dis-missing Yamcha's statement. It's only an absolute if you believe "Earthling" includes Tien in the same group as Krillin and Yamcha. But theres enough evidence that the message was only including pure humans. By definition Gohan,Goten,Trunks,Piccolo,17,18,Pilaf,Garlic Jr,Demons,Baba,Popo, Vampires,Mummies,WareWolves, Talking man like flying dinosaurs,Olong,Puar are all Earthlings. In a world where the president is a bluish purple canine. So a man with three eyes is just as different as all of those. Most of those we know Krillin is not stronger than.Goku has been called a Earthling and referred to himself as Earthling. The Daizenshuu when talking about Earthlings mentions Piccolo and Gohan as such. 17 and 18 are as human as you can get. Born human,parents human,give birth to humans. So how can we pick and choose who is included in that statement unless names are mentioned?

We can look at Akiras interview where they were talking about 18. Akira said Krillin is the strongest MALE Earthling. Indicating he considered 18 Earthling. But from a man who is forgetful. If he's considering 18. Then the statement is already wrong as he's forgetting 17. So we don't know what Earthling entails in Japanese culture and Toriyama. Because when asked if Tien was human, he pretty much said no. I'm sure if this was Lord of the Rings. I say to a human he's the strongest man on Earth. Are we just talking about humans? Or are we including Elves,dwarfs,Trolls,Dragons?

[JulianStyles]

I've always seen Krillin as stronger. Not to mention that Toriyama said it and Yamcha basically said it in the Buu arc. It's as simple as that.

He never said Krillin stronger than Tien. Read the above comment and you will see the flaw in the statement that is actually said.

[Bansho64]

He never said Krillin stronger than Tien. Read the above comment and you will see the flaw in the statement that is actually said.

He did. He said he was the strongest male earthling, which basically means that he's stronger than Tien. All these "flaws" that you're pointing out really just seem like you're reaching.

[Gog]

Screw all this nonsense, Krillin fanboys and Tenshinhan fanboys wasting their time arguing against one another. Really they should be teaming up, because YAMCHA is obviously the strongest human!

-The original hero, saved the day in the very first arc by defeating the main villain, Oozaru Goku. Neither Krillin nor Tenshinhan ever got even close to taking a big bad victory. Yamaha was the first, and besides him, only Goku and Gohan ever did.
-Manhandled Olibu
-Was stated to be Kaio's next strongest fighter after Goku and Vegeta
-Oneshotted Beerus
-Baseball champion
-Best hairstyles
-Badass scars
-Sokidan is the exact opposite of the Kienzan and Kikoho, which both have flaws that make them useless. While the former is unwieldy and the latter has a life-threatening ki drain, Yamcha possesses total control over the Sokidan, and it's also quick and energy efficient! The perfect technique!

The only reason he's not on U7's team is because he's too kindhearted to damn 11 other universes to destruction.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

How was I ever so wrong about anything? Thank you for showing me the truth

[Darkprince410]

Here's something to think about. If the statement conflicts with evidence. Then the statement in its literal form must have a different meaning. The fact that Tien in many sources is said to be a Decendant of Aliens, the fact Akira Toriyama didn't say Tien was human when asked straight up. The fact that the Daizenshuu list Gohan and even Piccolo as Earthling. The fact that 17 and 18 are Earthlings. Then we need to say what exactly is meant by that statement. Because to me it means pure human. When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains however improbable must be the truth.

Because he's not a direct descendant of aliens. The Daizenshuu states that he's a descendant of a tribe of three-eyed people, who themselves were descendants of aliens that came to Earth long ago. It's not like Gohan or Trunks, where they're halflings with alien parents, but rather multiple generations from this alien ancestry. While in general terms, Gohan and Piccolo are also listed as Earthlings because they reside on Earth, when specifically classified (as shown in Daizenshuu 4), they are broken up into their specific races, while Tenshinhan, despite his ancestry, is classified as an Earthling alongside Kuririn. That, if anything, establishes that, while he's still of alien ancestry, it's so far back along his line that he's predominantly human.

Let's say you're Caucasian. Both of your parents were Caucasian, as were your grandparents and great grandparents. Let's say then that one of your great great grandparents was of Japanese ethnicity. Would you classify yourself as being Asian? Not likely. While you would likely acknowledge you do have that Asian ancestry, it has diluted so much over the generations that you are predominantly Caucasian, so you would classify yourself as Caucasian. It's the exact same situation with Tenshinhan. his alien ancestry is far enough back that he's classified as human/Earthling just as Yamcha and Kuririn are.

[rereboy]

Rereboy

Not dis-missing Yamcha's statement. It's only an absolute if you believe "Earthling" includes Tien in the same group as Krillin and Yamcha. But theres enough evidence that the message was only including pure humans. By definition Gohan,Goten,Trunks,Piccolo,17,18,Pilaf,Garlic Jr,Demons,Baba,Popo, Vampires,Mummies,WareWolves, Talking man like flying dinosaurs,Olong,Puar are all Earthlings. In a world where the president is a bluish purple canine. So a man with three eyes is just as different as all of those. Most of those we know Krillin is not stronger than.Goku has been called a Earthling and referred to himself as Earthling. The Daizenshuu when talking about Earthlings mentions Piccolo and Gohan as such. 17 and 18 are as human as you can get. Born human,parents human,give birth to humans. So how can we pick and choose who is included in that statement unless names are mentioned?

We can look at Akiras interview where they were talking about 18. Akira said Krillin is the strongest MALE Earthling. Indicating he considered 18 Earthling. But from a man who is forgetful. If he's considering 18. Then the statement is already wrong as he's forgetting 17. So we don't know what Earthling entails in Japanese culture and Toriyama. Because when asked if Tien was human, he pretty much said no. I'm sure if this was Lord of the Rings. I say to a human he's the strongest man on Earth. Are we just talking about humans? Or are we including Elves,dwarfs,Trolls,Dragons?

You are literally trying to find ways to dismiss the line. You mention that Toriyama is forgetful, you mention that he specified the gender of the strongest, you talked about unused background info for Tenshinhan, and so on... That is basically nitpicking the line and the facts so that you can find a weak spot in it so that you can dismiss it. You are allowing your personal preference to guide your interpretation... But the fact is that, from an unbiased point of view, the line remains the clearest and strongest evidence regarding who is stronger between the two.

(Specifically, about Tenshinhan's alien roots, Darkprince410 has already answered you adequately.)

[JulianStyles]

And we are completely dismissing 17 is a Male Earthling. Also when that statement was said Z was over. Before the idea of Super. Uub is a Male Earthling. So cybernetics and reincarnations don't count. But Alien blood and three eyes does?

If this arc flat out proves Tien is stronger than Krillin. Then the statement must be revised. As Yamcha meant pure human.

Someone explain how 17 isn't Earthling. Seems allot of people skip over that point. Parents human, born human. Can still procreate humans.

[Akyon]

Someone explain how 17 isn't Earthling. Seems allot of people skip over that point. Parents human, born human. Can still procreate humans.

Because like 18 he's classified as a modified human, Android, Cyborg or Artificial Human. Has 18 ever been specified as the strongest Earthling woman? Genuine question, I have no clue.

Regardless 17 wouldn't have any bearing on Tien Vs. Krillin anyway. He'd just be the strongest by default. Until Uub shows up anyway and renders this whole "strongest Earthling" debate pointless since neither Krillin nor Tien are likely to outclass Uub even if they recieved super special training from Whis.

Maybe 17 and 18 don't count because they're artificially strengthened? Hell if I know, but it's not a natural born talent, it's artificially enhanced so maybe that's why 17 is classified as such?

Before the potential unlock is brought up, that's still natural talent within Krillin. Juuuust nipping that in the bud before it becomes a major argument point.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

Tien was always stronger due to this simple fact. He has never stopped training unlike Krillin who has slacked off multiple times after the defeat of Cell. Tien is strongest human ever and he will prove this in the next arc unless Toriyama simply just throws away all of Tiens effort.

[The gr]

Screw all this nonsense, Krillin fanboys and Tenshinhan fanboys wasting their time arguing against one another. Really they should be teaming up, because YAMCHA is obviously the strongest human!

-The original hero, saved the day in the very first arc by defeating the main villain, Oozaru Goku. Neither Krillin nor Tenshinhan ever got even close to taking a big bad victory. Yamaha was the first, and besides him, only Goku and Gohan ever did.
-Manhandled Olibu
-Was stated to be Kaio's next strongest fighter after Goku and Vegeta
-Oneshotted Beerus
-Baseball champion
-Best hairstyles
-Badass scars
-Sokidan is the exact opposite of the Kienzan and Kikoho, which both have flaws that make them useless. While the former is unwieldy and the latter has a life-threatening ki drain, Yamcha possesses total control over the Sokidan, and it's also quick and energy efficient! The perfect technique!

The only reason he's not on U7's team is because he's too kindhearted to damn 11 other universes to destruction.

this guy is correct but you forgot that yamcha survived an attack from Champa and beerus and yamcha rekt reccome that proves that yamcha is made outta iron and now let's end this debate

[Kaboom]

Someone explain how 17 isn't Earthling. Seems allot of people skip over that point. Parents human, born human. Can still procreate humans.

Because like 18 he's classified as a modified human, Android, Cyborg or Artificial Human.

Pretty much this. He and Eighteen are always classified as human-base model Androids rather than just Earthlings. They were normal Earthlings in the past, and biologically still mostly are. But their conversion into cyborgs represents a major change to the core of their being, which results in them being officially put in a different category. Same type of thing with the demi-Saiyan characters like half-Saiyan Gohan and even quarter-Saiyan Pan. They're always put in the Saiyan category because that's what defines them and makes them so different from "normal" Earthlings.

Not the case for Tenshinhan. As has been pointed out ad nauseum by many users already... over and over again... no matter what extra trivia's been said about his very distant alien ancestry or his quasi-godly third eye trait, Tenshinhan has still never been categorized as anything other than a native Earthling. I've never witnessed anyone ever claim that those things disqualify him as an Earthling except for folks who don't want him to be one so that they can in turn pretend he's stronger than Kuririn.