Are the Namekians stronger than the Saiya-jin?

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Tue May 11, 2004 2:09 pm

We aren't talking about the average from the Saiyans left, are we? It's looking back at the Bardock special or near then. If we were to kill off all but the 5 strongest Canadians, the average strenth of Canadians from 1995 wouldn't change.

Want to know why everyone else quotes that way? Because it's the only correct way. Do you put your left shoe on your right foot for that reason, too? You're basically saying you do things the wrong way on purpose. Is your monitor upside-down right now?

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Tue May 11, 2004 3:29 pm

James R. Cadwell wrote:There are DB forums full of rabid Japanese purists who complain constantly about using "Saiyan" as opposed to "Saiya-jin". I'm sure you've seen those types of forums before.

Person: Who thinks Super Saiyan is cool?
Purist: It's spelled "Saiya-jin", you baka. Har-har-har. Idiot. Die.

Oh god, yeah. The sort of place where everyone competes to see who can spell everyone's names in the most outragous way possible. Gokouu! Raditziuuui! Tenshinbinblanghan.

I bet half of them don't write "Namek-jin".

Ash · Post by **Ash** » Tue May 11, 2004 4:08 pm

Wouldn't it be Nameksei-jin? ~_~;

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Tue May 11, 2004 4:42 pm

Ash wrote:Wouldn't it be Nameksei-jin? ~_~;

Actually, it would be.

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Tue May 11, 2004 5:24 pm

I used to say Namek Sei-jin when I was a purist elitist dick and a half, but people always thought I was saying Namek Saiya-jin when I spoke it. So I changed it to Namekian. Now, I'm an anti-elitist, so I say Namekian and Saiyan and blah blah. (I pronounce Saiyan 'Cyan').

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Tue May 11, 2004 6:24 pm

B-kun wrote:
Ash wrote:Wouldn't it be Nameksei-jin? ~_~;
Actually, it would be.

ACTUALLY, it'd be Namekkusei-jin. (or something like that)

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Tue May 11, 2004 6:52 pm

And that is where Piccoro would come from.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Tue May 11, 2004 8:56 pm

Omarion wrote:I'll say it again for you. The Nameks only had old men,kids,and farmers. So put that into Saiyan race terms the
Low-Class Saiyan- Old men
Middle-Class Saiyan- Kids
Elite-Class Saiyan- Farmers
So if they where to go like that you tell me who would win? Thats is how it is basically how it goes. So who is stronger?

The Saiya-jin are a fighting species. 99% of the remaining Namekians were not. We don't know how powerful the average fighting-type Namekian was, but it's probably more appropriate to compare Saiya-jin warriors to Nail.

Omarion wrote:The Farmers were just about the Elite Nameks if you wanna go by ranks as the saiyans. You can tell about the Nameks that the strongest were the farmers.

The strongest Namekians besides Nail were probably the farmers, yes. But farmers are farmers, not experienced warriors like the Saiya-jin. You're attemping to arrange people who are essentially non-combatant civilians into a warrior hierarchy. Frankly, it's stupid and doesn't make much sense. That's like saying the French are a weaker ethnicity than the Spanish if you kill off everyone in France over 10 and compare them to the Spanish military.

French Babies = General Infantry
French Toddlers = Special Forces
Older French Children = Officers

That make sense to you?

Omarion wrote:At the end of the Saiyan Saga Goku and Vegeta were the only Saiyans left so they became the average for there Class. When they went to Namek. So there for after Radditz and Nappa died the Saiyans become the stronger race right?

If you killed off every Italian on the planet except for a couple of hulking 6'4", 250 pound super ninjas, would it be logical to say that Italians are stronger than every other ethnicity on Earth? No, it means that the last surviving representatives of the Italians happen to be far above the statistical average.

Radditz and Nappa do not appear to be exceptional representatives of their respective classes, so they would be the appropriate benchmarks for average Saiya-jin power. If you want to include Toei's work, then Bardock and his team would be good examples of low-class Saiya-jin.

Omarion wrote:kay well after Radditz died there was only one low-class saiyan so Goku became the average,strongest,weakest low-class Saiyan. There is only one Low-Class Saiyan but many Canadians so yea not a good example there buddy. About the Columbains if there was only one Columbain left and he was Rich than you can Columbains are richer than Americans. Take the Saiyan Race for example only 2 left.

So if everyone in Columbia died tomorrow except for two millionaries, it would be safe to write in history books "The Columbians were much, much wealthier than Americans"...?

Omarion wrote:Vegeta wasted the frist year right? I think if you waste the frist year you an't training hard buddy. So I waste my frist year of school I guess I am studying and working hard at school for my frist year right?

Vegeta wasted a portion of his first year of training focusing on the "Ultra" Super Saiya-jin form. So did Goku. What's your point? Vegeta still wound up getting twelve months more training than him. Was he slacking off during that year, too? How exactly do you think Vegeta conducted himself in the "Room of Spirit and Time"?

Trunks: Okay, let's begin our year of training.
Vegeta: No way.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Tue May 11, 2004 9:12 pm

Maybe Vegeta was just deperate to get on with some book reading, and the Room of Time and Spirit was the only place he could do that without being interrupted.

Trunks: Come on dad, we've already wasted the first year! Let's not waste this one.

Vegeta: Quiet! I'm not doing any training until I've found Waldo. Curse you, you white and red attired clown! You will not hide from the Prince of all...oh, found him. No, wait, that's a dog. Damnit.

As to Nail, what was the dialogue regarding him? I know he was the lone surviving warrior Namek, but was he considered exceptional within that catagory? Or was all the talk "bigging him up" just in comparison to all ther other farmer Nameks?

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Tue May 11, 2004 10:21 pm

James R. Cadwell wrote:If you killed off every Italian on the planet except for a couple of hulking 6'4", 250 pound super ninjas, would it be logical to say that Italians are stronger than every other ethnicity on Earth? No, it means that the last surviving representatives of the Italians happen to be far above the statistical average.

Ooh. Much better than I tried to put it.

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Wed May 12, 2004 12:03 pm

huh... Goku and Gohan became stronger than Vegeta because of their special training. They stayed as SSJs for a long time, getting used to the form, trying to make it their new "base". That boosted their powers. Vegeta didn't do that.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed May 12, 2004 1:50 pm

I did wonder about that. Did it boost their powers, or did it just mean that they could maintain Super Saiyan form (and strength) without having to waste time and energy transforming? Certainly there are situations in the series that show that transforming isn't something that can be done instantly and without effort (such as when Goku tried to stop Majin Vegeta's energy blast at the World Tornament...he was no doubt putting all his energy into holding back the blast, and couldn't spare any to transform).

Likewise, characters always de-transform when falling unconcious, implying that a certain amount of concious thought is needed to stay transformed. Goku and Gohan's training possibly just meant that they didn't need to think about staying transformed, nor worry about being caught in an untransformed state. They had Super Saiyan power constantly, without any draw backs.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed May 12, 2004 2:08 pm

As I recall, it was basically to get more used to being in that state and by remaining in SSJ mode 24/7, their bodies would adapt to the draining of power that taking on the form caused. That way, their bodies would easily be able to sustain the kind of energy level needed to be SSJ, indefinitely.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Wed May 12, 2004 2:12 pm

PsyLiam wrote:I did wonder about that. Did it boost their powers, or did it just mean that they could maintain Super Saiyan form (and strength) without having to waste time and energy transforming?

I don't think that the simple act of maintaining the Super Saiya-jin form 24/7 is somehow responsible for increasing their power. Otherwise Vegeta would have done that during his second year of training. I'm pretty sure that it's just described as a method of reducing the strain of Super Saiya-jin and improving endurance -- a useful technique in conjunction with the power Goku and Gohan achieved by training.

I suppose it might have also improved their energy efficiency as Super Saiya-jin. Say a normal Super Saiya-jin has a maximum power of 100 magicalimplausiblekiunits with an efficiency of 50%. The special training Goku and Gohan did might have increased that to 80% efficiency. Same power, less waste energy.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed May 12, 2004 3:00 pm

I still support the idea that Vegeta didn't use that technique because he couldn't. Turning Super Saiyan at least initially requires a fair amount of rage. Goku and Gohan were the first to use the form while still being fairly relaxed and "normal". If being relaxed while in Super Saiyan form is what it takes to be able to maintain it, then there's a fair chance Vegeta wouldn't have been able to do it.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Wed May 12, 2004 3:15 pm

PsyLiam wrote:I still support the idea that Vegeta didn't use that technique because he couldn't. Turning Super Saiyan at least initially requires a fair amount of rage. Goku and Gohan were the first to use the form while still being fairly relaxed and "normal". If being relaxed while in Super Saiyan form is what it takes to be able to maintain it, then there's a fair chance Vegeta wouldn't have been able to do it.

I agree. Although I don't think that Vegeta is literally the personification of fury -- he isn't constantly angry beyond all reason. If he felt that being cool and composed was the key to ultimate power, he might be able to emulate Goku and Gohan's trick. It just wouldn't come as easily.

I wonder, though -- why wasn't Trunks able to imitate Goku and Gohan? General incompetency?

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Wed May 12, 2004 3:28 pm

Maybe staying Super Saiyan did put strain on Goku and Gohan's bodies 24/7, but by bearing the pain, it thus became a natural state, meaning that now they'd have SS power without having to charge up.

Or maybe it has something to do with purer hearts. Pure heart is directly related, remember. Vegeta's heart was permeated with evil and pride, and Trunks was just filled with anger because of his future. Goku and Gohan, however, are as pure as can be. Maybe that's why they could do it, but not Vegeta and Trunks.

Omarion · Post by **Omarion** » Wed May 12, 2004 3:38 pm

Okay cool so we all agree that Gohan and Goku train a bit harder than Vegeta right? About the whole Saiyan Race you can't count dead people as part the race, right? The remaining Saiyan after the Saiyan Saga became the whole Saiyan Race right? So After the Saiyan Saga the Saiyans became stronger than Nameks.

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Wed May 12, 2004 3:47 pm

But Omarian, if you look at the races as a whole, before all the shit flew, the Namekians MIGHT have come out on top. Vegeta's PL was I believe 18,000 when he first appeared, right? Nail, however was 40+ thousand.

I'm just saying it could go either way, and until Toriyama stands up on his bags of money--- I mean, podium, and tells us, we'll be left to speculate.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Wed May 12, 2004 4:02 pm

Omarion wrote:Okay cool so we all agree that Gohan and Goku train a bit harder than Vegeta right?

No. We agree that Goku and Gohan wound up more powerful than Vegeta and Trunks. The only documented difference between their training methods in the "Room of Spirit and Time" is the sustained usage of the Super Saiya-jin form. Vegeta observed this before he went in for his second year of training, so either:

(a): Vegeta can't do it.

(b): The pay-off in power isn't worth the effort.

Either way, Goku and Gohan are superior to Vegeta. This nonsense about Vegeta not training as strenuously as those two doesn't seem to have any basis. If anything, Vegeta usually trains harder than Goku since he works out in high gravity.

Omarion wrote:About the whole Saiyan Race you can't count dead people as part the race, right? The remaining Saiyan after the Saiyan Saga became the whole Saiyan Race right? So After the Saiyan Saga the Saiyans became stronger than Nameks.

I was asking whether or not the Namekian species tends to be stronger than the Saiya-jin species. Not whether or not the last two surviving members of the Saiya-jin species happen to be stronger than the remaining Namekians.

If all of the toddlers on Earth disappeared except for one (who happens to be stronger than a ten year old), "toddlers are stronger than ten year olds" does not become an accurate statement.

Kanzenshuu

Are the Namekians stronger than the Saiya-jin?

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