Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

[Boo Machine]

[spoiler]finally i have an acsess to computer so i can explain in detail whats so wrong with db super.

ok look. il be honest i dont have a clue on whats going on behind the scenes in db super production but it honestly dosent matter to me whos doing what and all that. what matter to me is the final result. now you guys mention the blu ray a lot. from what I've seen so far the blu ray dosent fix much. they fixed a lot on episode 5 because it was the most infamous but the rest they bearly improved anything. and if they did its just went from horrible to just plain bad. but anyway. what i said about the charecters not heaving muscles anymore. its not even that. the proportions are all fucked up. dragon ball z and gt had a tradition of charecters looking lets call it ''complete'' and now in db super the inconsisity is really the problem. my ablulute worst episode maybe in all of dragon ball history is episode 14 of super. look at that.







now when the goku black arc started both goku and vegeta bodies had a much closer design to the one on z. they werent super muscler but they dident had chicken legs and hands

so why am i bitching now? because after the animation improved drasticlly episode 72 came and it was a huge downfall all the way to the begining. and btw. 71 looked great. but 72 looked so bad that i fear now that show would be back to the beerus and frieza arc quality.

now you all say its filler but it isnt. it was a mini arc. an importent episode. hit vs goku rematch. with drama and story. and you can be sure the manga would cover it because like i said its not really filler. the gohan movie episode. that was filler. the arale episode. this was filler. 71 and 72 is where you'd expect the best animation possibble

so you cant be searios when you say 72 had good animation. come on..

http://pho.to/AaRQ3

if fans would give good feedback to that abomination then toei would not try improve and give the best product like they did with the goku black arc.

and i know that episode had some good close ups but those close up shots are the most easy to make and they are the least importent. if you can make the charecters look normal from distance then its a sign your animation is bad.[/spoiler]

I wouldn't exactly call 2 episodes an arc. Not even Mini. We have no idea if that Hit stuff was an important part of the story, but considering it wasn't advertised as such like the other arcs, which usually has the "Written by series creator Akira Toriyama" all over it, I doubt it really matters or will be apart of the manga.

I'm not all that knowledgeable when it comes to the anime industry myself, so if I say anything wrong I hope someone corrects me.

This has been said about a thousand time before, but you can't just post weird looking screenshots and call it bad animation. Anyone can post weird looking frames from any show and say the same thing. Doesn't necessarily make it so. A single picture doesn't say much about the animation. Episode 24 and 33 have more than enough examples of bad animation. Episode 14 at least has quite a bit of motion going on and made the fight look decent. You may not like the way the art style looks, and that's fine, but I wouldn't call it a good example of bad animation, the art style just doesn't work for you. You're not alone in that.

What is a "Complete" look? This doesn't just go for Dragonball but any animated show is going to have slightly different looking episodes depending on who is working on what episodes. That's just what happens when their are multiple artists with different styles working on the same project. DBZ has had multiple episodes where one episode looks amazing then the next episode will have had the quality go down and the characters look a bit off. The episodes where Goku first goes Super saiyan or when Trunks kills Freeza come to mind. This website has an entire section on animation styles if you want to take a look at it. It's pretty interesting.

[cuartas]

Hey guys i tried to make this scene of the SSJ2 Goku vs Black fight faster, i've also added some black/white frames and zoom effects to make the impact of the punches a little bit "stronger". I know it's such a detail compared to how the ANIMATION actually is, but do you think Dragon Ball Super fights would look better if they used this kind of stuff?

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

holy shit, this is really amazing! and makes a great difference to the entire scene, I think this is absolutely possible to make in the current schedule

and I'm sorry but all this entire scene is a sack of crap, it's like the people can make a collage of bad shots, just like ep5, where was beerus looking at in the first place?

[ParkerAL]

Oh, this is where we have to disagree. Dragon Ball is a manga by Akira Toriyama. Dragon Ball should look like Akira Toriyama's work. And, in that respect, almost every animator who has ever worked on Super manages to achieve that better than Tate does.

I'm not a huge fan of Tate. Sometimes I like his cuts, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I think the fluidity of his animation makes up for his looser art, sometime's I don't. Sometimes his drawings look purposefully drawn, sometimes they just look rough. But I think his style has a place in the series, just as much as any other. God knows fans would riot if the anime actually reflected Toriyama's current designs, which (in some ways) are just as wildly different from what Dragon Ball traditionally looks like as anything Tate draws.

Not that I have any problem with Toriyama's modern art, though I will say his designs for the movies and Super do look like a step down from his great work on Jaco.

[JazzMazz]

To be fair, Tate was an animator on Z and his work on Z is nowhere near as good as his work on Super, even when it is very rough.
Z
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
Super
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Also I think it's an argument thats often used doesn't really hold any water. Dragonball doesn't have a specific style in which it moves, saying that it should move a certain is very creatively limiting for the franchise. Looking at the recent DBZ films like ROF shows that a change would definitely help the series.

Gotta disagree with you, mate. On the same examples you brought it, Tate was way better in DBZ than in Super IMO, those scenes were pretty nice and you could feel the impact of their punches. The only (Super) cut that I like from Tate so far is that one from Episode #47.

Not at all. Though I enjoy Tates work on Z as much as the next guy, its nowhere near as good as his work on Super from a purely technical standpoint. Tates work on Super has been a lot fancier and far more extravagant (at least during the action scenes), with things like animated zooms and far meatier effects and impact animation.His timing as well as how he makes characters move has also improved since his work on Z, as is evident in the cuts I demonstrated.

Also gohan_black, no one is going to say that Ryo Onishi's cut on #14 wasn't very rough and even a little messy, it was still however one of the best pieces of animation that we've gotten in the series and is a lot better than a lot of the purely on model stuff we got in previously.

Also could we please stop with the zooming in, it doesn't really help your point. Its the equivalent to someone doing thing.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
EDIT: Removed the Z's, hopefully it's less confusing.

[ArchedThunder]

Your post is confusing because you keep saying Z...

[Sodhi]

I like Toriyama's current art style. It is simplistic and there is so much that the anime could do with those flexible designs. We just need a better CD.

[ArchedThunder]

Toriyama's modern artstyle would be so much more animator friendly than Yamamuro's.
That being said I really dislike the way Toriyama draws Vegeta these days.

[Dai-Saiyajin]

[spoiler]

One of the things i hate most in super is how they removed all the muscles from goku vegeta and gohan. Absulutly hate it. I hate skinny hands and legs in db super

Blame it at Yamamuro. He's the character designer.
But, really. These kinds of comments/posts are everywhere.

finally i have an acsess to computer so i can explain in detail whats so wrong with db super.

ok look. il be honest i dont have a clue on whats going on behind the scenes in db super production but it honestly dosent matter to me whos doing what and all that. what matter to me is the final result. now you guys mention the blu ray a lot. from what I've seen so far the blu ray dosent fix much. they fixed a lot on episode 5 because it was the most infamous but the rest they bearly improved anything. and if they did its just went from horrible to just plain bad. but anyway. what i said about the charecters not heaving muscles anymore. its not even that. the proportions are all fucked up. dragon ball z and gt had a tradition of charecters looking lets call it ''complete'' and now in db super the inconsisity is really the problem. my ablulute worst episode maybe in all of dragon ball history is episode 14 of super. look at that.







now when the goku black arc started both goku and vegeta bodies had a much closer design to the one on z. they werent super muscler but they dident had chicken legs and hands

so why am i bitching now? because after the animation improved drasticlly episode 72 came and it was a huge downfall all the way to the begining. and btw. 71 looked great. but 72 looked so bad that i fear now that show would be back to the beerus and frieza arc quality.

now you all say its filler but it isnt. it was a mini arc. an importent episode. hit vs goku rematch. with drama and story. and you can be sure the manga would cover it because like i said its not really filler. the gohan movie episode. that was filler. the arale episode. this was filler. 71 and 72 is where you'd expect the best animation possibble

so you cant be searios when you say 72 had good animation. come on..

http://pho.to/AaRQ3

if fans would give good feedback to that abomination then toei would not try improve and give the best product like they did with the goku black arc.

and i know that episode had some good close ups but those close up shots are the most easy to make and they are the least importent. if you can make the charecters look normal from distance then its a sign your animation is bad.

[/spoiler]

I have to agree with gohan_black, ep 72, specially the 2nd half, are full of weird cuts and not only in-betweens frames, sometimes it's a full scene that look entirely weird, like the when Goku is trying to punch Hitto around 15:00' and the whole scene when Vegeta and the others are talking around 20:00'. I really don't like the way that Tate make the characters move, anyway, that's my personal opinion.

The fight between Goku and Hitto in this episode made me remind of ep 5. By the way, i'm not a animator or artist, just a huge fan of this franchise.

[JazzMazz]

[spoiler]

[spoiler]

Blame it at Yamamuro. He's the character designer.
But, really. These kinds of comments/posts are everywhere.

finally i have an acsess to computer so i can explain in detail whats so wrong with db super.

ok look. il be honest i dont have a clue on whats going on behind the scenes in db super production but it honestly dosent matter to me whos doing what and all that. what matter to me is the final result. now you guys mention the blu ray a lot. from what I've seen so far the blu ray dosent fix much. they fixed a lot on episode 5 because it was the most infamous but the rest they bearly improved anything. and if they did its just went from horrible to just plain bad. but anyway. what i said about the charecters not heaving muscles anymore. its not even that. the proportions are all fucked up. dragon ball z and gt had a tradition of charecters looking lets call it ''complete'' and now in db super the inconsisity is really the problem. my ablulute worst episode maybe in all of dragon ball history is episode 14 of super. look at that.







now when the goku black arc started both goku and vegeta bodies had a much closer design to the one on z. they werent super muscler but they dident had chicken legs and hands

so why am i bitching now? because after the animation improved drasticlly episode 72 came and it was a huge downfall all the way to the begining. and btw. 71 looked great. but 72 looked so bad that i fear now that show would be back to the beerus and frieza arc quality.

now you all say its filler but it isnt. it was a mini arc. an importent episode. hit vs goku rematch. with drama and story. and you can be sure the manga would cover it because like i said its not really filler. the gohan movie episode. that was filler. the arale episode. this was filler. 71 and 72 is where you'd expect the best animation possibble

so you cant be searios when you say 72 had good animation. come on..

http://pho.to/AaRQ3[/spoiler]

if fans would give good feedback to that abomination then toei would not try improve and give the best product like they did with the goku black arc.

and i know that episode had some good close ups but those close up shots are the most easy to make and they are the least importent. if you can make the charecters look normal from distance then its a sign your animation is bad.

[/spoiler]

I have to agree with gohan_black, ep 72, specially the 2nd half, are full of weird cuts and not only in-betweens frames, sometimes it's a full scene that look entirely weird, like the when Goku is trying to punch Hitto around 15:00' and the whole scene when Vegeta and the others are talking around 20:00'. I really don't like the way that Tate make the characters move, anyway, that's my personal opinion.

The fight between Goku and Hitto in this episode made me remind of ep 5. By the way, i'm not a animator or artist, just a huge fan of this franchise.

No-one is going to say that #72 wasn't one of Tate's roughest episodes on the series. It was extremely rough and even badly drawn at times. The scene that comes to mind as an example of this is that really ugly looking conservation where Goku is lunging at Hit. I did however think that the episode was still above episode five due to the fact that they were able to maintain some kind of standard quality throughout, and the fact there were also a lot of decent action scenes also helps this case.

[Dai-Saiyajin]

No-one is going to say that i#72 wasn't one of Tate's roughest episodes on the series. It was extremely rough and even badly drawn at times. The scene that comes to mind as an example of this is that really ugly looking conservation where Goku is lunging at Hit. I did however think that the episode was still above episode five due to the fact that they were able to maintain some kind of standard quality throughout, and the fact there were also a lot of decent action scenes also helps this case.

This episode is of course above ep 5, but still very poor in terms of art. The final conversation between goku, vegeta, beerus, vados , whis and champa are really one of most bad-looking scenes since the beginning of DB Super.

It seems that Tate really need more time to work, something like 12-13 weeks for each episode that he supervises, maybe with that he is capable of make more good-looking episodes.

[JazzMazz]

No-one is going to say that i#72 wasn't one of Tate's roughest episodes on the series. It was extremely rough and even badly drawn at times. The scene that comes to mind as an example of this is that really ugly looking conservation where Goku is lunging at Hit. I did however think that the episode was still above episode five due to the fact that they were able to maintain some kind of standard quality throughout, and the fact there were also a lot of decent action scenes also helps this case.

This episode is of course above ep 5, but still very poor in terms of art. The final conversation between goku, vegeta, beerus, vados , whis and champa are really one of most bad-looking scenes since the beginning of DB Super.

It seems that Tate really need more time to work, something like 12-13 weeks for each episode that he supervises, maybe with that he is capable of make more good-looking episodes.

With 11 weeks and very little key animation inbetween he was able to produce #56. That was really polished, though didn't have that much great animation in it.
Some of his work from #56
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

[Shreyas_Singh]

So did Tate also work on Tiger Mask?

[Dai-Saiyajin]

With 11 weeks and very little key animation inbetween he was able to produce #56. That was really polished, though didn't have that much great animation in it.
Some of his work from #56
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

I hope that for the next arc they give him around 11-13 weeks. It seems that Yukihiro Kitano is other that need more time to work.

It will be nice if Toei make a planning that gave at least 8 weeks for all supervisors to work on each episode of the next arc.

[JazzMazz]

I really hope that they give him more time between episodes as well. Maybe these ten weeks will allow the schedule to improve?

[Alee9977]

If we reach the 8-10 weeks between episodes, that will be like One Piece, where a lot of their supervisor gets 8 to 10 weeks, sometimes a little longer and sometimes a little less. But that will make a huge difference, it's not the same 6-7 weeks to 8, there are 7/14 days to polish the episode so that would be a big and positive change.

[cuartas]

Also could we please stop with the zooming in, it doesn't really help your point. Its the equivalent to someone doing thing.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
EDIT: Removed the Z's, hopefully it's less confusing.

1) you don't actually need eagle eyes to note the potato drawings at all, the scene I posted wasn't too far to somehow say it was justified.

2) your example was far, far away than my example and the drawing is pretty good, goku's hair is even better than the tate scene of goku and frieza, the muscles are defined and there's even good shading, so yours is a good example of how to handle this kind of scenes.

3) I'm well aware that the farthest the characters are, the less the detail, but not at the point of my screenshot, that's a shame, goku's hand doesn't even have a single line to define the muscles, that's pure laziness honestly

[FortuneSSJ]

Just watched OP Film Gold. Cool Movie.

It's not my favourite OP Movie, but the production is indeed top notch and far above what we get with Dragon Ball.
Showing the Straw Hat crew with a long Shida's cut was a delight to see. I honestly don't know how you beat a introduction like that.

But this time what bothered me the most was use of our old sound effects. Because right now we are having a new DB anime, and Toei thought it was a good idea to find another guy to do it, instead of recycle what they already have. Makes it worse when the new sound effects pale in comparison to the old ones.
I don't have problems with change, when we change for better. That's not what happened.

I also remembered one of the many things I love about Dragon Ball is the lack of cliché friendship lines. Just like most OP material and shonen stuff in general, this movie has lines like "You're our friend.", "I won't let you hurt my friends." etc... Something that I'm thankful that Dragon Ball doesn't have. Even in the original Toei Movies where Goku acts more heroic, he or any other character, never says stuff like this.

But yeah, with Dragon Ball making a lot of money and beating One Piece in merchandising sales even in Japan, I hope one day justice is made and we a get a Movie with this quality.

/Off-Topic

[Gashif Aldi]

gohan_black is Indonesian. lol.
Don't worry guys. People in Indonesia just complains and doesn't care (I live there). He's a troll, just ignore him.
But, I really wanna beat this guy up. Just give him most of Ryo Onishi's legendary cuts. Tate is super good, he's just assigned on more work than he could handle.
I mean he always appear in 2-3 episodes (Not to mention sometimes he's the most credited)
Give him 20 weeks, and SHAKA LAKA BOOM! (Also some 2nd Key Animators).
Shida's the only one who always been given much more time. Just let Shida do a scene per 2-3 episode.

Dang, I'm mad.

[SaiyanGod117]

I also remembered one of the many things I love about Dragon Ball is the lack of cliché friendship lines. Just like most OP material and shonen stuff in general, this movie has lines like "You're our friend.", "I won't let you hurt my friends." etc... Something that I'm thankful that Dragon Ball doesn't have. Even in the original Toei Movies where Goku acts more heroic, he or any other character, never says stuff like this.

To add on this, I like how Dragon Ball never has weird and cringey dialogue or scenes like most anime have. Well it might have a few, but it's practically nonexistent, Super has some though.

[Alee9977]

ok look. il be honest i dont have a clue on whats going on behind the scenes in db super production but it honestly dosent matter to me whos doing what and all that. what matter to me is the final result. now you guys mention the blu ray a lot. from what I've seen so far the blu ray dosent fix much. they fixed a lot on episode 5 because it was the most infamous but the rest they bearly improved anything. and if they did its just went from horrible to just plain bad. but anyway. what i said about the charecters not heaving muscles anymore. its not even that. the proportions are all fucked up. dragon ball z and gt had a tradition of charecters looking lets call it ''complete'' and now in db super the inconsisity is really the problem. my ablulute worst episode maybe in all of dragon ball history is episode 14 of super. look at that.

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

now when the goku black arc started both goku and vegeta bodies had a much closer design to the one on z. they werent super muscler but they dident had chicken legs and hands

so why am i bitching now? because after the animation improved drasticlly episode 72 came and it was a huge downfall all the way to the begining. and btw. 71 looked great. but 72 looked so bad that i fear now that show would be back to the beerus and frieza arc quality.

now you all say its filler but it isnt. it was a mini arc. an importent episode. hit vs goku rematch. with drama and story. and you can be sure the manga would cover it because like i said its not really filler. the gohan movie episode. that was filler. the arale episode. this was filler. 71 and 72 is where you'd expect the best animation possibble

so you cant be searios when you say 72 had good animation. come on..

[spoiler]http://pho.to/AaRQ3[/spoiler]

if fans would give good feedback to that abomination then toei would not try improve and give the best product like they did with the goku black arc.

and i know that episode had some good close ups but those close up shots are the most easy to make and they are the least importent. if you can make the charecters look normal from distance then its a sign your animation is bad.

First of all, I find really weird that your worst animated episode is 14 instead of episodes like 5 or 24, I don't see any problems with the imagen you posted except for the one underwater.
Second, about ep 72, you shouldn't post zoomed images of far draws because we can say that every anime sucks and post an image like that.
Finally, you should read past pages of this thread were the animation of these filler episodes was discused and is assumed it is being this conservative and rough because everybody is focusing in the new arc, don't expect having movie quality episodes now, not until filler ends at least