Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by Gog » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:47 am

FoolsGil wrote:
Gog wrote:Only one problem with this so far, Yamcha did cheat on Bulma, but besides that so far, so good
Where in the manga, anime, or interviews with Toriyama has that been said?
Bulma herself stated it. Before Raditz arrived

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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by FoolsGil » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:12 pm

Gog wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:
Gog wrote:Only one problem with this so far, Yamcha did cheat on Bulma, but besides that so far, so good
Where in the manga, anime, or interviews with Toriyama has that been said?
Bulma herself stated it. Before Raditz arrived
She didn't really state anything. Based on a copy of the manga I found online:
Bulma wrote:Yamcha, that idiot? You think I care? After what he did? Well think again!
That answer could mean anything. He could have dutch oven'd her. He could have forgot an anniversary. She could've caught one of his female fans hugging him way too tightly at a baseball game, and though he didn't do anything, she took it the wrong way. They could have had a big fight because they've been together for over 10 years and Yamcha still wasn't ready for marriage. There's any number of things that could have pissed Bulma off that wasn't infidelity.
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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by Gog » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:49 am

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37243&p=1232733#p1232733

Yamcha cheated on Bulma, Nejishiki cleared that up in this thread.

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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by FoolsGil » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:21 am

Gog wrote:viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37243&p=1232733#p1232733

Yamcha cheated on Bulma, Nejishiki cleared that up in this thread.
So much for dutch ovens.
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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by Gokitalo » Fri May 05, 2017 9:19 pm

We'll see how RMK decides to handle it. I'm sure he'll come up with a pretty clever idea that doesn't outright contradict Toriyama, but at the same time fits with Yamcha's earlier assertion in Elsewhere that he's never cheated on anyone. Who knows, maybe it was a misunderstanding, or he and Bulma were on a break with ill-defined terms and he met someone. It could be any number of things.

Anyway, I'm all caught up with the latest pages and I'm very impressed, as always. RMK has done such a great job fleshing out Yamcha and adding many interesting layers to the Dragon Ball universe. I also like how he's used anime-only material to his advantage and made it fit seamlessly with both the original manga and the story he's telling. Great seeing Grand Kaio's planet explored more, too!

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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by FoolsGil » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:34 pm

Damn I missed an update: Chapter 25: At the Lake of Blood, Updated May 29th

http://dbzelsewhere.webcomic.ws/comics/383
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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:18 pm

This is what Toei should've sold as "The Yamcha manga!". Not that I dislike the version we have, it's just that this one's doing things with Yamcha himself power and personality wise whereas the genuine article's about someone else with meta knowledge in Yamcha's body using that to cheat for fun little fanservice.
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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by FoolsGil » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:34 am

ekrolo2 wrote:This is what Toei should've sold as "The Yamcha manga!". Not that I dislike the version we have, it's just that this one's doing things with Yamcha himself power and personality wise whereas the genuine article's about someone else with meta knowledge in Yamcha's body using that to cheat for fun little fanservice.
True that. Not that I don't like the official manga, but there is something more satisfying about the genuine article making things work.
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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by dbgtFO » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:28 pm

Gokitalo wrote:We'll see how RMK decides to handle it. I'm sure he'll come up with a pretty clever idea that doesn't outright contradict Toriyama, but at the same time fits with Yamcha's earlier assertion in Elsewhere that he's never cheated on anyone. Who knows, maybe it was a misunderstanding, or he and Bulma were on a break with ill-defined terms and he met someone. It could be any number of things.
I personally saw that, as the author denying that Yamcha was a cheater, no matter what Toriyama says, cause it's just a plot point to justify Bulma getting with Vegeta.

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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by ImperialWrath » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:55 pm

Doctor. wrote:It's alright I suppose. I have to question Yamcha's characterization since here he's focused on training from the beginning, while we know that he gave up fighting after Cell; it's a radically different view and I don't think the author gave it too much attention despite this story being a different version of the Boo arc (I presume at least, especially after the Kaioshins get involved; if not, then he's gonna have trouble tying it in with the Boo arc). Some things don't make sense like why Gyumao helped Kyonshi and why Yamcha was so ridiculously scared of Gyumao at the start of DB, when he managed to put up a good fight here, and still got stronger after that; following early DB Yamcha's characterization, he should have thought that he could beat Gyumao.

And maybe I misinterpreted that part, but why were the DBs a part of the undoing of the seal? I thought all you need was the 4 masters. Kyonshi's decision to turn to Yamcha's side so quickly is weird. It wasn't a "enemy of my enemy is my friend" type of deal, he seemed to have fully repented, which is weird considering even Heiwa said that he was pure evil. I also wonder why some characters even exist. I understand Barracks and Yunomi, because they're used to give Yamcha a backstory (even though I think a character like him is better off without one), but they've been pretty useless so far. Why does Pigero even exist besides comic relief? We know nothing about him, he just came out of nowhere. He was used to move the plot forward at the beginning, but after that he had no reason to stay in the story.

I suppose there's no "real" way to write these kinds of stories, but I find the whole thing incredibly fanboy-ish. Not only does Yamcha resume training, training in the RoSaT as well, but he gets stronger than Kuririn and Tenshinhan straight off the bat. Conveniently, there are 4 sacred schools that he was a part of, and the son of a Kaioshin was sealed on Earth, and conveniently yet again, an ancient God thing decided to use his body as a vessel. At least he didn't get ridiculously strong (like most stories where the author focuses on a secondary character), he's still somewhat below base Goku, but I have no doubt that he will somehow become the strongest at one point, it's how these stories usually go. The whole "give the humans the zenkai boost" thing also made me facepalm, hard.

Anyway, no point in dropping it when I'm so far in, I'll keep an eye on it because the action is quite good, despite being somewhat unnecessarily bloody for my taste. I'm curious how Boo (and Boo arc stuff like Super Saiyan 3) will somehow tie into all of this.
I know the above comment is quite old, and I doubt this will even be given much attention, but I have to comment on this. And I'm sorry if this offends the poster, but honestly, the above comment is spoken like a true hater. For one, how is it a radically different view that the Yamcha in this story would decide, post Cell, to train even harder rather than quit altogether? This would imply that Yamcha's character is not the type to push himself further when faced the threat of stronger opposition. In this sense, Toriyama's iteration of Yamcha quitting fighting and training after Cell is a radically different view of the character. Also, to say Yamcha put up a good fight against Gyumao in the flashback is not only false (the fight literally ended with Yamcha landing a sword blow to the Ox King's back and hardly any damage was sustained), but it makes me wonder if you even paid attention to that scene. As for the second part, yes you did misinterpret it. The DB's really had no noticeable effect on the seal, as it was outright stated that the seal could only be broken by having representatives from each school present, with each of them "being of one mind". Basically that they each shared the same desire or thought.

As for Kyonshi's decision, it wasn't all that weird, considering that even though he succeeded in his goal of breaking the seal, he was spurned by the very being(s) who he sought to grant him god-like power. Realizing that everything villainous act you have taken over the years essentially rendered moot, it's not really that odd that he would suddenly decide to turn over a new leaf. I also had to shake my head at the useless characters comment, as it's funny you don't seem to extend that same opinion toward Toriyama who has spent DECADES rendering virtually every non-Saiyan character pretty much in the same boat. Also again, I have to wonder if you've paid attention, Pigero was a minor character shown in DB/Z where he had a minor story line with Gohan. As for Barracks, Yunomi, and Pigero being useless, how is that a waste considering the only villains they have had a chance to encounter (Kyonshi and Heiwa) were both much stronger than them? For crying out loud, the story hasn't even finished yet. I also have to ask, how does Yamcha NOT having a backstory make his character "better off"? In what way does that benefit his character?

And to denounce this comic as "incredibly fanboy-ish" is absolutely absurd, at least it is given your reasoning. I've already addressed the Yamcha resuming training comment, so I won't bother addressing that again. But him becoming stronger than Kuririn and Tenshinhan?? First off, it wasn't off the bat, so to say that is again, extremely false. The very first chapter stated that Yamcha spent MONTHS training in the gravity chamber alone. Secondly, you DO realize that there wasn't THAT much of a different in power between Kuririn, Tenshinhan, and Yamcha at that point in the series right? In fact, given the fact that there are no canonical power levels shown of ANY characters at that point in the series, it's practically impossible to determine if there was a significant gap in power between the three. But even if there were, the gravity training alone should've been enough to enable Yamcha to eclipse that gap in the same way that Vegeta had been able to eclipse the gap with Goku. Add to that the fact that Yamcha also spent two days training in the RoSoT, while neither Kuririn or Tenshinhan went through either such training themselves, and it really shouldn't be all that difficult to believe that Yamcha could surpass the two in training.

As for there conveniently being 4 schools he was a part of, well technically Yamcha was never a member of the Crane school. In fact, he states in the very comic that he was only trained in two, the Wolf and Turtle. So again, I have to wonder if you even paid attention to the story or just skimmed through it? And again, I find it comical that you seem to have a problem with a Kaioshin being "conveniently" sealed on Earth. I wonder did you feel the same way about Majin Boo being "conveniently" left on Earth by the Supreme Kai after he killed Bibidi? As for using the DB's to grant students of the 4 schools the zenkai boost, I honestly don't see how that's facepalm worthy. If anything, it's a plot device that gives the human fighters a fighting chance to be relevant again, instead of constantly relying on the Saiyans to bail the Earth out of trouble, while at the same time not exposing the ability to EVERY human on Earth.

Honestly, Doctor, you're entire criticism of this comic seems to be complete nonsense, and really just seems like sour grapes that someone could actually create a well-thought out story line that doesn't cater to kissing the butts of the Saiyan characters. And THAT to me is pretty much the only thing I see that is worthy of a facepalm.

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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by Doctor. » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:19 pm

ImperialWrath wrote:And I'm sorry if this offends the poster, but honestly, the above comment is spoken like a true hater.
Why would I hate a fan-manga? I'm all for artistic expression and I know it takes talent and dedication to produce something like this. Criticism remains criticism.
ImperialWrath wrote:For one, how is it a radically different view that the Yamcha in this story would decide, post Cell, to train even harder rather than quit altogether?
Because it's the polar opposite of what he actually ended up doing in the real story. If it's the polar oppose, then it's radically different, that's intuitive. Such a drastic change warrants a more in-depth explanation.
ImperialWrath wrote:Also again, I have to wonder if you've paid attention, Pigero was a minor character shown in DB/Z where he had a minor story line with Gohan.
You mean a filler character? I'm sorry, I'm not a fan of the anime. My mistake for not getting the reference, then.
ImperialWrath wrote:I also have to ask, how does Yamcha NOT having a backstory make his character "better off"? In what way does that benefit his character?
That's a simple one. Yamcha's past was never once brought up in the series. When we met him, and long after he became fully integrated with the cast, he seemed to have completely accepted the way of life he had chosen. His past, his life before he became a desert bandit, was an afterthought. To bring up his past so late into the series and turn it into such a driving force behind his character arc seems completely out of left field. Some characters don't need backstories.

I never said this was a big issue, though.
ImperialWrath wrote:But him becoming stronger than Kuririn and Tenshinhan?? First off, it wasn't off the bat, so to say that is again, extremely false. The very first chapter stated that Yamcha spent MONTHS training in the gravity chamber alone. Secondly, you DO realize that there wasn't THAT much of a different in power between Kuririn, Tenshinhan, and Yamcha at that point in the series right?
No, but there was also no significant difference in mentality between someone like Tenshinhan (specifically) and the way Yamcha is portrayed in this manga. So, to portray Yamcha in such a way that he can fully utilize every tool at his disposal to become stronger, but not provide an explanation as to why someone like Tenshinhan, who was the original proprietor of the attitude that the Yamcha in this comic sports, doesn't take advantage of the same methods feels, at best, "incredibly fanboy-ish," as I stated.
ImperialWrath wrote:I wonder did you feel the same way about Majin Boo being "conveniently" left on Earth by the Supreme Kai after he killed Bibidi?
Yes? Please don't assume what I think of Toriyama's writing.
ImperialWrath wrote:Honestly, Doctor, you're entire criticism of this comic seems to be complete nonsense, and really just seems like sour grapes that someone could actually create a well-thought out story line that doesn't cater to kissing the butts of the Saiyan characters. And THAT to me is pretty much the only thing I see that is worthy of a facepalm.
I purposefully ignored the rest of your rebuttal because it has been two years and my memory on most of the details is fuzzy. And since I have no interest in going back to reread the story, it would be dishonest of me to reply with insufficient information. However, I still chose to reply to some of the more general points that rely on general franchise knowledge.

This part of your post though... I'm not sure if this is the account of the owner, or if you have any personal affiliation with the comic, but this, coupled with some other comments you sparsely made throughout your post, leads me to believe you have some kind of personal investment in the comic. And not the positive kind of one. You seem to me very bitter about the way Toriyama treated some of your (presumably) favorite characters, the non-Saiyans, and sought refuge in this comic; the inability to take criticism without going on the defensive and acting in a passive-agressive manner shows that this is abundantly clear.

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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by ImperialWrath » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:06 pm

Doctor. wrote:Why would I hate a fan-manga? I'm all for artistic expression and I know it takes talent and dedication to produce something like this. Criticism remains criticism.
You tell me? You're the one who came into a thread about a fan-manga, and then proceeded to launch nothing but what appeared to be nit-picking criticisms without a shred of compliments toward it. That's the textbook definition of a hater. I'm all for criticism, but only if it makes sense or is justified.
Doctor. wrote:Because it's the polar opposite of what he actually ended up doing in the real story. If it's the polar oppose, then it's radically different, that's intuitive. Such a drastic change warrants a more in-depth explanation.
That still doesn't make it radically different. But for the sake of argument, let's just go with your position and say that it is, why does that require a more in-depth explanation than the one he gave of humans taking a more proactive approach in protecting the Earth, instead of kicking back and letting the Saiyans do all of the work? Not every decision made has to require an intricate analysis. And as I pointed out, one could successfully argue that Toriyama's decision to have Yamcha suddenly quit fighting was a radically different concept compared to what we'd always seen of the character throughout the series up until that point.
Doctor. wrote:You mean a filler character? I'm sorry, I'm not a fan of the anime. My mistake for not getting the reference, then.
Fair enough, but you could still make the effort to at least try and research a character before you arbitrarily past judgment on them. We have online search engines for a reason.
Doctor. wrote:That's a simple one. Yamcha's past was never once brought up in the series. When we met him, and long after he became fully integrated with the cast, he seemed to have completely accepted the way of life he had chosen. His past, his life before he became a desert bandit, was an afterthought. To bring up his past so late into the series and turn it into such a driving force behind his character arc seems completely out of left field. Some characters don't need backstories.

I never said this was a big issue, though.
You really didn't answer my question though. I asked you how Yamcha not having a back story benefits him or makes him a better character? Your response doesn't really answer that question. Whereas I could easily argue that Yamcha having a fleshed out back story easily makes him more appealing to the readers, even if we ourselves can't relate to living in the desert or being a bandit. It would give us greater insight into his character, his motivations, etc. Also, just because he doesn't really ever address the subject of his past, doesn't necessarily mean he's at peace with it. It could be he just never had a reason to address it until his relationship with Bulma ended.

Lastly, I never said you did say it was a big issue.
Doctor. wrote:No, but there was also no significant difference in mentality between someone like Tenshinhan (specifically) and the way Yamcha is portrayed in this manga. So, to portray Yamcha in such a way that he can fully utilize every tool at his disposal to become stronger, but not provide an explanation as to why someone like Tenshinhan, who was the original proprietor of the attitude that the Yamcha in this comic sports, doesn't take advantage of the same methods feels, at best, "incredibly fanboy-ish," as I stated.
Well, for one, Yamcha does imply that Tenshinhan had also advanced and mastered the Kaio-ken as well, so it's not like Yamcha's been turned into some fighting genius achieving something Tenshinhan hasn't. We just haven't seen Tenshinhan in action enough to see to what degree he's capable of using the Kaio-ken. Also, one aspect of Tenshinhan's character is that he, like Piccolo, is a mostly solitary character who prefers training on his own. So in that way it makes sense that he wouldn't seek out Bulma's family's home just to use the gravity chamber. Based off of your response, that'd essentially be like criticizing the author for not having Piccolo show up on Bulma's doorstep and be like "hey, mind if I use your gravity room for a while?" So using Tenshinhan as an example to label the author's work as fanboy-ish is indeed ridiculous, as I stated.
Doctor. wrote:Yes? Please don't assume what I think of Toriyama's writing.
Now you're simply grasping at straws. I have made no assumptions on your part, I simply posed to you a question about a similar "convenience" seen in Toriyama's series. One among numerous "conveniences" really. A question which, again, you did not answer.
Doctor. wrote:This part of your post though... I'm not sure if this is the account of the owner, or if you have any personal affiliation with the comic, but this, coupled with some other comments you sparsely made throughout your post, leads me to believe you have some kind of personal investment in the comic. And not the positive kind of one. You seem to me very bitter about the way Toriyama treated some of your (presumably) favorite characters, the non-Saiyans, and sought refuge in this comic; the inability to take criticism without going on the defensive and acting in a passive-agressive manner shows that this is abundantly clear.
Ok, first off no, I'm not the owner of the fan-manga, if that's what you were implying. Nor do I have any personal affiliation with it outside of simply being a fan and enjoying it for what it is. As for Toriyama, pointing out the short-comings in his writing doesn't make me "bitter". Honestly, I've labeled similar criticisms against other mangaka over the years as well, though I can honestly say very few go to the extreme lengths that Toriyama does. As for your last comment, again, I have no problem in accepting justified or accurate criticism, notice I never said a word about your criticism of the artwork. It's just that most of the criticisms you did make came across as weak and nitpick-ish in my opinion. The fact that you would blatantly ignore two prominent questions I posed to you, while also attempting to insult me by making false accusations against me only further lends credence to my earlier hater accusation.

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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by Doctor. » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:45 pm

ImperialWrath wrote:You tell me? You're the one who came into a thread about a fan-manga, and then proceeded to launch nothing but what appeared to be nit-picking criticisms without a shred of compliments toward it. That's the textbook definition of a hater. I'm all for criticism, but only if it makes sense or is justified.
I said "It's alright." Literally the first words. And then I said the action was "quite good," are you purposefully ignoring all of that? That doesn't qualify as "nothing but nit-picking criticisms without a shred of compliments toward it." You make it sound like I said it was shit. Just because I criticized it more than I praised it doesn't mean that I didn't praise it.
ImperialWrath wrote:That still doesn't make it radically different. But for the sake of argument, let's just go with your position and say that it is, why does that require a more in-depth explanation than the one he gave of humans taking a more proactive approach in protecting the Earth, instead of kicking back and letting the Saiyans do all of the work? Not every decision made has to require an intricate analysis. And as I pointed out, one could successfully argue that Toriyama's decision to have Yamcha suddenly quit fighting was a radically different concept compared to what we'd always seen of the character throughout the series up until that point.
Not every decision needs an intricate analysis. A complete 180, however, does need one.
ImperialWrath wrote:Fair enough, but you could still make the effort to at least try and research a character before you arbitrarily past judgment on them. We have online search engines for a reason.
Why should I assume that what I presumed to be a new character is in reality a filler character of the anime adaptation of the series? I cannot research what I never could have foreseen.

It's like blaming the people who never heard of or read the Jaco manga for not knowing who the character was during RoF. Of course they didn't, and they will continue not to know until they accidentally stumble across that fact or someone tells them.
ImperialWrath wrote:I asked you how Yamcha not having a back story benefits him or makes him a better character? Your response doesn't really answer that question. Whereas I could easily argue that Yamcha having a fleshed out back story easily makes him more appealing to the readers, even if we ourselves can't relate to living in the desert or being a bandit. It would give us greater insight into his character, his motivations, etc. Also, just because he doesn't really ever address the subject of his past, doesn't necessarily mean he's at peace with it. It could be he just never had a reason to address it until his relationship with Bulma ended.
You could have easily inferred my reasoning from my response. Yamcha doesn't need a backstory, and it benefits his character, because he's a character that has (presumably) left his past behind. This portrays him as someone who is independent, confident and self-reliant, which is very much in-line with early Yamcha's characterization. Giving him a backstory which serves as the main driving force of his character arc makes him look insecure and cowardly.
ImperialWrath wrote:Well, for one, Yamcha does imply that Tenshinhan had also advanced and mastered the Kaio-ken as well, so it's not like Yamcha's been turned into some fighting genius achieving something Tenshinhan hasn't. We just haven't seen Tenshinhan in action enough to see to what degree he's capable of using the Kaio-ken. Also, one aspect of Tenshinhan's character is that he, like Piccolo, is a mostly solitary character who prefers training on his own. So in that way it makes sense that he wouldn't seek out Bulma's family's home just to use the gravity chamber. Based off of your response, that'd essentially be like criticizing the author for not having Piccolo show up on Bulma's doorstep and be like "hey, mind if I use your gravity room for a while?" So using Tenshinhan as an example to label the author's work as fanboy-ish is indeed ridiculous, as I stated.
Fair enough, I just thought that the absolute (smart) abuse of resources in order to catch up with the other characters is something very much unlike Dragon Ball, though I guess that is more of a criticism of the source material rather than the fan series.
ImperialWrath wrote:Now you're simply grasping at straws. I have made no assumptions on your part, I simply posed to you a question about a similar "convenience" seen in Toriyama's series. One among numerous "conveniences" really.
You condescendingly assumed that I had no problem with Majin Boo's cocoon being on Earth in order to justify your rebuttal of my "comical" complaint about the Kaioshin's imprisonment on Earth being arbitrary and convenient. Do not pretend you were doing anything else.
ImperialWrath wrote:A question which, again, you did not answer.
Yes, I did.
Doctor. wrote:Yes?
Bullshit is bullshit, the author is irrelevant. Now, and for the last time, don't assume what I think of Toriyama's writing and don't try to lie afterwards saying that wasn't your intention when it clearly was.
ImperialWrath wrote:Ok, first off no, I'm not the owner of the fan-manga, if that's what you were implying. Nor do I have any personal affiliation with it outside of simply being a fan and enjoying it for what it is.
It's alarming you're taking such an aggressively defensive stance, if that's the case.
ImperialWrath wrote:As for Toriyama, pointing out the short-comings in his writing doesn't make me "bitter".
Repeatedly pointing out the same shortcoming in his writing, even in arguments it shouldn't be in, makes you come across as bitter, if you want me to be honest.
ImperialWrath wrote:It's just that most of the criticisms you did make came across as weak and nitpick-ish in my opinion.
Because I never once claimed it was a bad manga, yet you chose to take it as such.
ImperialWrath wrote:The fact that you would blatantly ignore two prominent questions I posed to you, while also attempting to insult me by making false accusations against me only further lends credence to my earlier hater accusation.
I very clearly pointed out that I was purposefully ignoring your arguments because I'm not willing to go reread hundreds of pages to defend a two-year old post I may or may not agree with when I'm done with such endeavor. I specifically chose to answer to general statements about the franchise itself or accusations laid against my person. I made no false accusations, I called you out on your toxic behavior. It is highly hypocritical of you to make such a statement when you did nothing but try to insult me in a passively-aggressive manner in your first post (please refer to your first and last paragraph) over the fact that I thought this fanmanga was mediocre.

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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by FoolsGil » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:32 pm

Damn. I thought we had an update. Instead a fight over an old comment. :|
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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by GigaDrill » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:40 am

FoolsGil wrote:Damn. I thought we had an update. Instead a fight over an old comment. :|
Updates happen like every 4-5 months and the creator mentioned having life problems so maybe hopes were a bit too high
Doctor. wrote:At least he didn't get ridiculously strong (like most stories where the author focuses on a secondary character), he's still somewhat below base Goku, but I have no doubt that he will somehow become the strongest at one point, it's how these stories usually go. The whole "give the humans the zenkai boost" thing also made me facepalm, hard.
What I can see happening is that Yamcha would only become the strongest through the Kaioshin inside him, and the story would end with said Kaioshin leaving. At least that's what the story seems to be implying.

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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by ImperialWrath » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:19 am

Doctor. wrote:I said "It's alright." Literally the first words. And then I said the action was "quite good," are you purposefully ignoring all of that? That doesn't qualify as "nothing but nit-picking criticisms without a shred of compliments toward it." You make it sound like I said it was shit. Just because I criticized it more than I praised it doesn't mean that I didn't praise it.
So two half sentences, one of which you followed up with an immediate criticism about it being "too bloody for your taste", accompanied by a literal WALL of text about what you feel the author is doing wrong, and those are supposed to be equal in merit? Lmao, ok.
Doctor. wrote:Not every decision needs an intricate analysis. A complete 180, however, does need one.
Why? Because you say so? Again, outside of labeling it as "radical", you really haven't given much of a reason why it needs one. Other than you feel Yamcha needs some grandiose reasoning to do so. :roll:
Doctor. wrote:Why should I assume that what I presumed to be a new character is in reality a filler character of the anime adaptation of the series? I cannot research what I never could have foreseen.

It's like blaming the people who never heard of or read the Jaco manga for not knowing who the character was during RoF. Of course they didn't, and they will continue not to know until they accidentally stumble across that fact or someone tells them.
The difference in the scenario you just used is that people who don't read or haven't heard of the Jaco manga aren't on a forum criticizing said manga. YOU are the one who read a fan-manga, criticized the author for inputting a character that you knew nothing about into the story, without bothering to do a simple Google search to see if the character actually existed in either canon or filler in the series. Two completely different things there, thus your comparison is completely baseless.
Doctor. wrote:You could have easily inferred my reasoning from my response. Yamcha doesn't need a backstory, and it benefits his character, because he's a character that has (presumably) left his past behind. This portrays him as someone who is independent, confident and self-reliant, which is very much in-line with early Yamcha's characterization. Giving him a backstory which serves as the main driving force of his character arc makes him look insecure and cowardly.
This comment was hilarious. So, let me get this straight, YOU want me to basically ASSUME (something which is synonymous with inferring) what your reasoning for a blank statement like that. But then you want to both wrongfully accuse and criticize me of making assumptions in the very SAME post?? Whatever, personally, I disagree with Yamcha not needing a back story, as it makes him easier to relate to or understand as a character. For example, there are fans out there who criticize Yamcha's character because he started out as a bandit. Do you know why that criticism is hard to argue against? Because there's no context in the series surrounding it. The same applied to Vegeta, until we got his back story of him basically being held in bondage under Freeza, it was easy to criticize his character for being this homicidal maniac. Again, it didn't help his character, because there was initially no context around it.

Another example, though outside of the series, is the character Hiei, from the series Yu Yu Hakusho. Not sure if you're familiar with that series, but he was a character who was arguably the most mysterious in the series, in terms of his motivations and goals, and why he had huge trust issues with others. A large part of that was his background was largely unknown. It wasn't until that past was revealed, that we learned that of him having a twin sister that he was forcibly separated from, how he was cast out by his mother's people, and betrayed by the bandit group that he had been raised by. His fan-base increased even further because we got that back story of his character. Likewise with Yamcha, your argument of his back story making look insecure and weak falls flat, because it makes him easier to relate toward. After all, as human beings most (if not all of us) can relate to having issues in our lives, either past or present, that we've run away from or otherwise been unwilling to deal with it. You can't get anymore human than that.
Doctor. wrote:You condescendingly assumed that I had no problem with Majin Boo's cocoon being on Earth in order to justify your rebuttal of my "comical" complaint about the Kaioshin's imprisonment on Earth being arbitrary and convenient. Do not pretend you were doing anything else.
Now you're purposely being obtuse. Again, I made no assumptions whatsoever, nor was I condescending. I posed a legitimate question, one that you still continue to dodge. If I wanted to make an assumption, I would've actually phrased that question as a statement against you, which is not what I did. And the reason why I did so is because as a fan-fiction writer, I see this all the time where fans of a series will criticize a fan-fiction writer for not adhering to standards or engaging in certain story concepts that they do not hold the series creator to. The reason I phrased my response as a question, rather than a statement or accusation, is because I was trying to AVOID making assumptions about what your thoughts are on the series, and instead give you the benefit of the doubt in regards to that. And as I pointed out above, it's ridiculous for you to criticize me for not "inferring", which is just another word for assuming, one aspect of your argument, then turn around and accuse and criticize me of making assumptions on another point of yours.

Do not make false accusations against me to avoid addressing your own laziness or reluctance in expounding on your opinions.
Doctor. wrote:Yes, I did.
No, you did not.
Doctor. wrote:Bullshit is bullshit, the author is irrelevant. Now, and for the last time, don't assume what I think of Toriyama's writing and don't try to lie afterwards saying that wasn't your intention when it clearly was.
I've already addressed this above. The ONLY person who has made assumptions on anyone is you. Bullshit is bullshit, and you have yet to legitimately point out any on the author of this fan-manga. For the last time, stop making false accusations against me because you're too lazy to explain your own criticism of the series.
Doctor. wrote:It's alarming you're taking such an aggressively defensive stance, if that's the case.
How has my stance been aggressive? Because I labeled your initial post that of a hater? What's alarming is your apparent willingness to patronize and falsely accuse someone because they pointed out the absurdity in your arguments.
Doctor. wrote:Repeatedly pointing out the same shortcoming in his writing, even in arguments it shouldn't be in, makes you come across as bitter, if you want me to be honest.
And why should it not be in the argument? Again, it's very similar to the same shortcomings you're pointing out. Calling me bitter so you can dismiss my rebuttal isn't going to change that.
Doctor. wrote:Because I never once claimed it was a bad manga, yet you chose to take it as such.
Right, so in other words, when I do take your advice and infer, when in reality I merely questioned it, on your opinions, then once again you want to criticize me instead of addressing the point. :roll:
Doctor. wrote:I very clearly pointed out that I was purposefully ignoring your arguments because I'm not willing to go reread hundreds of pages to defend a two-year old post I may or may not agree with when I'm done with such endeavor. I specifically chose to answer to general statements about the franchise itself or accusations laid against my person. I made no false accusations, I called you out on your toxic behavior. It is highly hypocritical of you to make such a statement when you did nothing but try to insult me in a passively-aggressive manner in your first post (please refer to your first and last paragraph) over the fact that I thought this fanmanga was mediocre.
Again, you have yet to explain how any of my behavior has been toxic. Have I personally disrespected you? No, I have not. Have I personally insulted you? No, I have not. In fact, literally the first thing I did in my original post was to apologize if you took offense to my post, which you obviously have. Have I insulted your opinion? Sure, you could make that argument, but that's not the same as insulting or disrespecting you personally. Please show me what statement I made that insulted YOU as a PERSON. Not your OPINION, YOU. The fact is that your initial opinion, two years ago, was that of a person throwing shade on someone's content, for no other apparent reason than the weak, nitpick-ish ones that you gave. There's not a single thing that I've said that is hypocritical, and if your only response to someone criticizing your opinion is to personally label and insult them, then I'm not going to continue entertaining you. Either address the relevant points made, or don't. Pure and simple.

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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by Doctor. » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:03 am

ImperialWrath wrote:So two half sentences, one of which you followed up with an immediate criticism about it being "too bloody for your taste", accompanied by a literal WALL of text about what you feel the author is doing wrong, and those are supposed to be equal in merit? Lmao, ok.
Don't backtrack. You said I didn't compliment it at all. I proved you wrong, that even if I praised it little, I still did praise it. Acknowledge your mistake.

If I never claimed it was bad, if I claimed it was "alright," then proceeded to give a "literal WALL of text about what you feel the author is doing wrong," then that is constructive criticism, that is advice for the author to fix what I consider mistakes in the future and improve his story. I more often than not criticize more than I praise, even the things that I really like, that's just my approach to art. You chose to take it personally.
ImperialWrath wrote:Why? Because you say so? Again, outside of labeling it as "radical", you really haven't given much of a reason why it needs one. Other than you feel Yamcha needs some grandiose reasoning to do so. :roll:
Yes, because I say so, because I feel like such a drastic change needs some more introspection rather than being glossed over. Ignoring the fact that that's an entirely reasonable proposition, when did I try to label my preferences as fact? I said I had to "question" Yamcha's characterization, I didn't say "Yamcha's characterization fucking sucks, he's completely out of character, the author clearly doesn't know what the fuck he's doing," which would be a legitimate hater's comment. But that's not what I wrote, now is it?

Oh and the "Lmao ok" and " :roll: " are you being condescending yet again. Just in case you try to play the victim card again, like you're going to do later on in this post.
ImperialWrath wrote:The difference in the scenario you just used is that people who don't read or haven't heard of the Jaco manga aren't on a forum criticizing said manga. YOU are the one who read a fan-manga, criticized the author for inputting a character that you knew nothing about into the story, without bothering to do a simple Google search to see if the character actually existed in either canon or filler in the series. Two completely different things there, thus your comparison is completely baseless.
Terrible analogy. The people who didn't read the Jaco manga would be on a forum criticizing the movie for including a new character that seemingly brings nothing new to the story and barely moves the plot in any way, only to be later corrected by other fans who'd explain that he's actually a character from a recent Toriyama manga and this served to tie him in with the story. Again, perfectly reasonable scenario, and that's what happened here. You decided to take my ignorance and make it out to be a result of laziness and hate rather than genuine ignorance, because I, nor you, would never be able to search for something I have no idea exists.

Do I have to search for Dragon Ball Multiverse's XXI just to see if he's a reference to some filler character I don't know about? No, see how that's a preposterous suggestion?
ImperialWrath wrote:This comment was hilarious. So, let me get this straight, YOU want me to basically ASSUME (something which is synonymous with inferring) what your reasoning for a blank statement like that. But then you want to both wrongfully accuse and criticize me of making assumptions in the very SAME post??
I (rightfully) accused you of making assumptions about what I thought of Toriyama's writing, which had nothing to do with the debate at hand and you knew nothing about my position on the subject. Inferring something very obvious out of an argument I made about a subject you have some posts to go by to judge my opinion is something completely different.
ImperialWrath wrote:The same applied to Vegeta, until we got his back story of him basically being held in bondage under Freeza, it was easy to criticize his character for being this homicidal maniac. Again, it didn't help his character, because there was initially no context around it.
It's still easy to criticize Vegeta for being an homicidal maniac because he was one.

As for the rest, there's a difference between having a backstory and letting your backstory define you. That's why Vegeta is insecure and Goku is not.
ImperialWrath wrote:Now you're purposely being obtuse. Again, I made no assumptions whatsoever, nor was I condescending.
Yes, you were:
ImperialWrath wrote:And again, I find it comical that you seem to have a problem with a Kaioshin being "conveniently" sealed on Earth. I wonder did you feel the same way about Majin Boo being "conveniently" left on Earth by the Supreme Kai after he killed Bibidi?
"What? You had a problem with the Kaioshin being conveniently sealed on Earth? Well... in the original series, Majin Boo was ALSO conveniently sealed on Earth, bet you didn't complain about that!"

That's exactly what your post reads like, which evidently enough, you go on to prove:
ImperialWrath wrote:And the reason why I did so is because as a fan-fiction writer, I see this all the time where fans of a series will criticize a fan-fiction writer for not adhering to standards or engaging in certain story concepts that they do not hold the series creator to. The reason I phrased my response as a question, rather than a statement or accusation, is because I was trying to AVOID making assumptions about what your thoughts are on the series, and instead give you the benefit of the doubt in regards to that.
Yet you try to spin this as an innocent question, rather than an "Ah-ha, gotcha bitch!" moment on your part. You weren't trying to avoid any assumptions, you had already made all of the assumptions in your head from the moment you read my post, you wouldn't have found it "comical" otherwise. And you want me to know how this is true? Because you did the exact same thing earlier in your original post:
ImperialWrath wrote:I also had to shake my head at the useless characters comment, as it's funny you don't seem to extend that same opinion toward Toriyama who has spent DECADES rendering virtually every non-Saiyan character pretty much in the same boat.
Look at that, that's not a question, that's "a statement or accusation." That's another condescending assumption of what I think of Toriyama's writing.

Don't try to lie after you've gotten caught. It doesn't make you look good.
ImperialWrath wrote: I posed a legitimate question, one that you still continue to dodge. [...] No, you did not.
I wonder if you're purposefully ignoring the response or if you have problems with reading comprehension. And I don't ask this out of malice, but because I have given you the answer in my first response and then quoted it to you again when you claimed I ignored it. And I will do it once again just to prove how you're either lying or not paying any attention.
Doctor. wrote:Yes?
What, does the question mark confuse you, is that it? It's only there because you asked a (again, condescending) question with such a blatantly obvious response that I was indignant as to what to reply to you. Yes, I have a problem with Majin Boo conveniently being on Earth. It's forced and contrived. It's also one of the main complaints people have about the Boo arc.
ImperialWrath wrote:How has my stance been aggressive? Because I labeled your initial post that of a hater? What's alarming is your apparent willingness to patronize and falsely accuse someone because they pointed out the absurdity in your arguments.

[...]

Again, you have yet to explain how any of my behavior has been toxic. Have I personally disrespected you? No, I have not. Have I personally insulted you? No, I have not. In fact, literally the first thing I did in my original post was to apologize if you took offense to my post, which you obviously have. Have I insulted your opinion? Sure, you could make that argument, but that's not the same as insulting or disrespecting you personally. Please show me what statement I made that insulted YOU as a PERSON. Not your OPINION, YOU. The fact is that your initial opinion, two years ago, was that of a person throwing shade on someone's content, for no other apparent reason than the weak, nitpick-ish ones that you gave. There's not a single thing that I've said that is hypocritical, and if your only response to someone criticizing your opinion is to personally label and insult them, then I'm not going to continue entertaining you. Either address the relevant points made, or don't. Pure and simple.
Because your first or second post on this website was a response to a two-year old post, where you make direct claims aimed at me such as:
ImperialWrath wrote:the above comment is spoken like a true hater. [...] I also had to shake my head at the useless characters comment, as it's funny you don't seem to extend that same opinion toward Toriyama who has spent DECADES rendering virtually every non-Saiyan character pretty much in the same boat. [...] And again, I find it comical that you seem to have a problem with a Kaioshin being "conveniently" sealed on Earth. I wonder did you feel the same way about Majin Boo being "conveniently" left on Earth by the Supreme Kai after he killed Bibidi? [...]

Honestly, Doctor, you're entire criticism of this comic seems to be complete nonsense, and really just seems like sour grapes that someone could actually create a well-thought out story line that doesn't cater to kissing the butts of the Saiyan characters. And THAT to me is pretty much the only thing I see that is worthy of a facepalm.
That's omitting the constant overuse of words and sentences such as "I wonder if you paid attention," "ridiculous," "comical," and "nonsense," which, although aren't any insult on my person, are definitely expressions you associate with aggressiveness. That last paragraph especially shows how aggressively defensive you're being about this fancomic.

You constantly projected this "Toriyama doesn't care about the non-Saiyan characters and that's okay" mentality, something you vehemently hate by the looks of things, onto me multiple times throughout your post and pretended as if you were debating against a caricature of the people you think hold that that opinion. Then you get called out on that toxic behavior, on your passive-aggressive jabs, on your personal, direct insults against me and you decide to play the victim and act like you're without fault here, when the one who started this entire argument by personally attacking someone multiple times was none other than you. You outright lie by claiming I ignored your questions, when I either answered them and you ignored the response or I specifically said I wouldn't answer them out of lack of info, or claiming I made false accusations against you, which is not the case as proven above. You claim you never insulted me personally when you constantly assumed what I thought and dedicated an entire paragraph saying it seemed like I had "sour grapes," which is just another way of saying I'm jealous I can't write something similar. You try to pretend I insulted you throughout this entire conversation, when the only thing that could be misconstrued as an insult was the part where I said you seemed bitter about something. And seeing as how this debate turned out, that turned out to be true.

And no, I have not taken offense to your post (rather, it looks like you took offense to my posts, even though I've been completely civil). I just don't take kindly to blatant lies.

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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by ImperialWrath » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:11 am

Doctor. wrote:Don't backtrack. You said I didn't compliment it at all. I proved you wrong, that even if I praised it little, I still did praise it. Acknowledge your mistake.

If I never claimed it was bad, if I claimed it was "alright," then proceeded to give a "literal WALL of text about what you feel the author is doing wrong," then that is constructive criticism, that is advice for the author to fix what I consider mistakes in the future and improve his story. I more often than not criticize more than I praise, even the things that I really like, that's just my approach to art. You chose to take it personally.
I'm not backtracking at all, I'm merely pointing out how half-baked they sound, as opposed to the actual thought you put into pointing out what you consider to be deficiencies in the story. But ok, I'll concede to this one.
Doctor. wrote:Yes, because I say so, because I feel like such a drastic change needs some more introspection rather than being glossed over. Ignoring the fact that that's an entirely reasonable proposition, when did I try to label my preferences as fact? I said I had to "question" Yamcha's characterization, I didn't say "Yamcha's characterization fucking sucks, he's completely out of character, the author clearly doesn't know what the fuck he's doing," which would be a legitimate hater's comment. But that's not what I wrote, now is it?

Oh and the "Lmao ok" and " :roll: " are you being condescending yet again. Just in case you try to play the victim card again, like you're going to do later on in this post.
Hold on, when I did ever say that you tried to label your preferences as fact? I simply responded to your "questioning" Yamcha's characterization by pointing out how ridiculous it was, which is why I labeled it a hater's comment. You directly referred to the author's depiction of Yamcha as "fanboyish", and then immediately proceeded to justify that by erroneously stating Yamcha had become stronger than Kuririn and Tenshinhan "right off of the bat". Those were YOUR words, not mine. And when I called you out on that, you then tried to change the narrative of your criticism by pointing out that basically it made no sense that someone like Tenshinhan (I noticed how you completely abandoned Kuririn at this point in the argument as well) wouldn't take advantage of the same resources as Yamcha, despite the fact that Tenshinhan was the originator of the mentality that Yamcha seems to have in this fan-manga. And yet again, I pointed out the fallacy in that point as well. And even though you did concede that point about Tenshinhan being too solitary to ask Bulma or Dr. Brief's permission to use the gravity room, you still are holding onto the fanboyism argument. Again, explain to me how that's not a hater's comment?

Also, yeah, duh, of course me saying "Lmao ok" and giving the eye roll emoji was me being condescending. That's because you had, quite frankly, earned it with your continued attempt to assassinate my character in order to avoid having to concede your argument. My being condescending then doesn't mean I was being condescending back in my first post. Frankly, you seem to be projecting quite a lot, because every accusation you make against me is literally behavior you're engaging in yourself.
Doctor. wrote:Terrible analogy. The people who didn't read the Jaco manga would be on a forum criticizing the movie for including a new character that seemingly brings nothing new to the story and barely moves the plot in any way, only to be later corrected by other fans who'd explain that he's actually a character from a recent Toriyama manga and this served to tie him in with the story. Again, perfectly reasonable scenario, and that's what happened here. You decided to take my ignorance and make it out to be a result of laziness and hate rather than genuine ignorance, because I, nor you, would never be able to search for something I have no idea exists.

Do I have to search for Dragon Ball Multiverse's XXI just to see if he's a reference to some filler character I don't know about? No, see how that's a preposterous suggestion?
It's actually not a terrible analogy, it's a LITERAL interpretation of what happened. For one, we're not discussing a movie, we're discussing a fan-manga, since you apparently want to be technical and all. Also, you should really take your own advice about assuming for other people, because I actually DID take the time out to search not just for Pigero's character, but also Yunomi, Barracks, and even Kyonshi. Which is how I discovered that of those characters, only Pigero was actually depicted in the series, albeit in the anime filler. So with that said, no, I don't see how what you suggested is preposterous because I actually DID it. So you can say it's ignorance, or go with my narrative that you were just lazy, the point is still that you tried to criticize the author's work without apparently taking into account ANY context around it or doing your due diligence (i.e. research).

And yet again, when I pointed that out, you immediately tried to (falsely) label me rather than acknowledge the point.
Doctor. wrote:I (rightfully) accused you of making assumptions about what I thought of Toriyama's writing, which had nothing to do with the debate at hand and you knew nothing about my position on the subject. Inferring something very obvious out of an argument I made about a subject you have some posts to go by to judge my opinion is something completely different.
You (wrongfully) accused me of making assumptions about what you think of Toriyama's writing, which is a dumb assertion considering that, as you pointed out I knew (and still know) nothing about your position on. Which again, is why I asked the question. My bringing up Toriyama's writing, however, does have something to do with the debate as I pointed out a very similar example of an author using a device that could be considered "convenient" as a means to move the plot forward. If that has nothing to do with the debate, then neither does your Jaco manga example that you brought up earlier. But I haven't dismissed that point nor accused you of anything in doing so, have I? No, I have not.
Doctor. wrote:It's still easy to criticize Vegeta for being an homicidal maniac because he was one.

As for the rest, there's a difference between having a backstory and letting your backstory define you. That's why Vegeta is insecure and Goku is not.
I feel like you're missing the point here. Of course you can still criticize Vegeta for being a homicidal maniac, God knows I still do it when debating Vegeta fans. My point was that his actions become more understandable and therefor, easier to relate to, because you're aware of and understand the context of characters past. Which is a similar argument on my part in regards to why it's better for Yamcha to have an exposed back story for the fans to see, rather than just leaving it and the character in limbo.

And of course Goku isn't insecure, he hasn't killed a bunch of innocent people. The guy won't even kill most villains.
Doctor. wrote:Yes, you were:
Like I said in my last post, I'm not gonna continue arguing this point with you. I did no such thing, and I've repeatedly shown that I haven't.
Doctor. wrote:"What? You had a problem with the Kaioshin being conveniently sealed on Earth? Well... in the original series, Majin Boo was ALSO conveniently sealed on Earth, bet you didn't complain about that!"

That's exactly what your post reads like
No, no, no, don't change the context of my words. You can believe whatever you want about what I said, and if that's your opinion that I sounded condescending then okay, that's your opinion and I'm fine with that (I disagree with it, but I'm fine with it). But don't presume to speak for me and label your opinion in regards to my question as fact, as if you know better than I do in regards to the meaning of my words. Because you don't, and you only prove yourself to be the hypocrite.
Doctor. wrote:Yet you try to spin this as an innocent question, rather than an "Ah-ha, gotcha bitch!" moment on your part. You weren't trying to avoid any assumptions, you had already made all of the assumptions in your head from the moment you read my post, you wouldn't have found it "comical" otherwise. And you want me to know how this is true? Because you did the exact same thing earlier in your original post:
Lmao, now not only are you presuming to know what I meant by my own words better than I do, but now you're presuming to know what I think as well? The reason I found that part of your criticism comical is because again, as I pointed out above, authors use plot-devices to move a story forward all of the time. That's why I said I was curious on what your thoughts about the whole Majin Boo thing, and why I asked a question. See that keyword I used in BOTH posts? Curious, because that's what you do when you're curious about something, you ASK questions.

A question which I'm still waiting on the answer too, by the way. I'm not gonna let you continue to try and duck it.
Doctor. wrote:Look at that, that's not a question, that's "a statement or accusation." That's another condescending assumption of what I think of Toriyama's writing.

Don't try to lie after you've gotten caught. It doesn't make you look good.
Yeah, that was also an entirely different subject than the whole "Kaioshin being convenient" discussion. Using two separate arguments with two different responses in order to try and justify your point is erroneous and deliberately misleading. This is why I stated you were grasping at straws. Also, at no point have I lied about anything I've said. Just because I continue trying to tell you that my question was NOT me making an assumption about you or what you think, and you continue to believe otherwise, doesn't make me a liar. Rather, as I stated earlier, it makes it seem as if you're projecting your own faults in this discussion onto me.
Doctor. wrote:I wonder if you're purposefully ignoring the response or if you have problems with reading comprehension. And I don't ask this out of malice, but because I have given you the answer in my first response and then quoted it to you again when you claimed I ignored it. And I will do it once again just to prove how you're either lying or not paying any attention.
Doctor. wrote:Yes?
What, does the question mark confuse you, is that it? It's only there because you asked a (again, condescending) question with such a blatantly obvious response that I was indignant as to what to reply to you. Yes, I have a problem with Majin Boo conveniently being on Earth. It's forced and contrived. It's also one of the main complaints people have about the Boo arc.
No, I don't have a problem with reading comprehension, nor was I ignoring your response. Perhaps if you had simply given the answer you FINALLY gave from the beginning, instead of sounding like a politician being asked a question he/she doesn't understand (which obviously you did), we could've actually made some headway in this discussion. As I would've immediately pointed out what I did earlier, which is that authors use plot-devices like those all of the time, literally just about EVERY series. That's why I said using that as a means to criticize the author is weak and nitpick-ish. I'm not saying it's not a legit criticism, but it does come across as weak.
Doctor. wrote:That's omitting the constant overuse of words and sentences such as "I wonder if you paid attention," "ridiculous," "comical," and "nonsense," which, although aren't any insult on my person, are definitely expressions you associate with aggressiveness. That last paragraph especially shows how aggressively defensive you're being about this fancomic.
Using sentences such as "I wonder if you paid attention" when pointing out an obvious point in the story, such as the fact the author clearly showed Yamcha spend 6 months in gravity training, followed by 2 days in the RoSoT, in response to your incorrect assertion that Yamcha became stronger than Kuririn and Tenshinhan right off of the bat (again your words), isn't aggressive. Rather, again, it's a legitimate statement, because otherwise you wouldn't have made that assertion. Likewise, using words like "ridiculous", "comical", and "nonsense" about your criticism of this fan-comic isn't aggressive, especially since I took time to detail why.

If I had done something like type an entire response in all caps (rather than using them on certain to words to emphasize a point like I have been doing), or overuse a string a punctuation marks, or even lace my comments with profanity here and there, then you'd have a fair and legitimate argument in calling me aggressive. See how that works?
Doctor. wrote:You constantly projected this "Toriyama doesn't care about the non-Saiyan characters and that's okay" mentality, something you vehemently hate by the looks of things, onto me multiple times throughout your post and pretended as if you were debating against a caricature of the people you think hold that that opinion. Then you get called out on that toxic behavior, on your passive-aggressive jabs, on your personal, direct insults against me and you decide to play the victim and act like you're without fault here, when the one who started this entire argument by personally attacking someone multiple times was none other than you. You outright lie by claiming I ignored your questions, when I either answered them and you ignored the response or I specifically said I wouldn't answer them out of lack of info, or claiming I made false accusations against you, which is not the case as proven above. You claim you never insulted me personally when you constantly assumed what I thought and dedicated an entire paragraph saying it seemed like I had "sour grapes," which is just another way of saying I'm jealous I can't write something similar. You try to pretend I insulted you throughout this entire conversation, when the only thing that could be misconstrued as an insult was the part where I said you seemed bitter about something. And seeing as how this debate turned out, that turned out to be true.
Once again, you're being misleading, or in this case outright lying, I literally only brought up Toriyama's lack of character development outside of the Saiyans one time. It was not, nor has it ever been constant. And sure, I don't like that aspect of the series, and I'm not the only one as many fans of the series have pointed this out online. I also did not project anything on you multiple times, once again another act of dishonesty on your part. In fact, this entire quote above is a flat out, bald-faced, outright lie. Even if I HAD made assumptions against you, that's not the same as personal insults. That's like me accusing you of assuming I'm wearing jeans, and then using that false-assumption to accuse you of calling me a tacky dresser, you see how absurd that sounds? My calling you out a NAME would be a personal insult, or an attack on you as a person. Again, you've unfairly made your own assumptions and labels about me, and then continued to use them as a scapegoat to dodge the flaws I pointed out in your arguments. In fact, I could help you and point out what legitimate criticisms you could've made that I would've wholeheartedly agreed with, such as why the author didn't have Yamcha seek out Kuririn and Tenshinhan right after the seal had been broken and Heiwa had been released. Or how the author had Yamcha train up 400x Earth's gravity when, as far as we know, it took Vegeta nearly 3 years to train up to 500x. Any of those points you could've made, and others, about the comic and I would've had nothing to say, because I've made those same criticisms in the comments section on the authors website for the comic and his/her facebook page for the comic.

The fact that you have yet to point out a single instance of me doing either of those things tells me that the only that's true about this debate is that you obviously had no faith in hardly any of your points, but clearly don't want to admit to being wrong, otherwise you would've stuck to addressing and defending them rather than continuing this song and dance as if you are the victim and I just singled you out for no reason. Which is, once again, an assertion that is absolutely ridiculous.
Doctor. wrote:And no, I have not taken offense to your post (rather, it looks like you took offense to my posts, even though I've been completely civil). I just don't take kindly to blatant lies.
You've been far from civil, and the only thing blatant here is your denial of that.

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Doctor.
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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by Doctor. » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:43 am

Debating against you is painful because you're full of such hateful rhethoric and keep ignoring what I say in favor of your own interpretation of my position. What seems astonishing to me, however, is the complete lack of self-awareness: to accuse your opponent of doing what you're doing, but be genuinely clueless that you're doing it.

I've already explained why I'm not defending my two-year old arguments.
Doctor. wrote: I purposefully ignored the rest of your rebuttal because it has been two years and my memory on most of the details is fuzzy. And since I have no interest in going back to reread the story, it would be dishonest of me to reply with insufficient information. However, I still chose to reply to some of the more general points that rely on general franchise knowledge.
Doctor. wrote:I very clearly pointed out that I was purposefully ignoring your arguments because I'm not willing to go reread hundreds of pages to defend a two-year old post I may or may not agree with when I'm done with such endeavor. I specifically chose to answer to general statements about the franchise itself or accusations laid against my person.
In case you still don't understand, I'll explain it even more clearly: I physically cannot defend or concede my arguments because I remember almost nothing. I don't know if my arguments are sound or not and I haven't been pretending to know. It would be dishonest of me to pick a side, hence why I haven't done so and hence why I have purposefully ignored the bulk of your post. And I explained this from my very first response to you, my intention was to reply to arguments you made that don't depend much on knowledge about this manga, but on general franchise knowledge, and accusations you made against me, which no matter how much you try to deny the fact that they exist, anyone can see them clear as day. This is what I've done from the start, this is what I've told you I was doing but now here you are saying stuff like this, pretending like I think whatever I thought 2 years ago still holds up today (it might, I don't know, that's the point, I said I may or may not agree with my post):
ImperialWrath wrote:The fact that you have yet to point out a single instance of me doing either of those things tells me that the only that's true about this debate is that you obviously had no faith in hardly any of your points, but clearly don't want to admit to being wrong, otherwise you would've stuck to addressing and defending them rather than continuing this song and dance as if you are the victim and I just singled you out for no reason. Which is, once again, an assertion that is absolutely ridiculous.
If you still can't understand that I don't wish to have any debate because I literally cannot debate about what I don't remember and only chose to do so because you were being hostile, then I don't know what to tell you. What I know, however, is that this has gone past the point where this would be on-topic. So I'm done. You may have the last response, I don't particularly care.

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Re: Webcomic - Dragonball Z Elsewhere

Post by Gokitalo » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:19 am

Doctor. wrote:
Because it's the polar opposite of what he actually ended up doing in the real story. If it's the polar oppose, then it's radically different, that's intuitive. Such a drastic change warrants a more in-depth explanation.
I am 99.99 percent sure that RMK is building toward said explanation. I think he's even mentioned (possibly on his DeviantArt account) that he has a specific explanation in mind for reconciling Yamcha's training in Elsewhere with his apparent retirement from fighting by the time the Boo saga came around. Assuming Yamcha actually did indeed quit, as he claimed: all we really had to go on in the manga was his word, as I recall.

Anyway... I hope this argument between the two of you is over. It's been very unpleasant to get through and has really soured the tone of this thread. It's alright to disagree on things, but not in a way that's rude and personal, which is a violation of Rule #4 of the forum. So let's try to keep things civil. And brief!

RMK says he's aiming to release the next batch of pages on August 15, which has got me pretty excited. He's been dropping little hints as well in the comments regarding the role some of the imprisoned villains might play in Yamcha's fight against Gero. Apparently King Cold might be up to something!

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