Should Super Saiyan have been a one time thing?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Plus it would also preserve the Super Saiyan legend, it really sucked how it immediately became obsolete in the next arc in canon.

Super Saiyan, as described by Vegeta, ended up non-representative of its myth in the same arc that introduced its concept. Vegeta himself didn't place much stock in the tale until he believed it was possible to achieve for himself. In-universe, there was no legend to preserve with Goku proving its ideas false. Possessing a tranquil heart with intense rage was not recorded in the Super Saiyan stories Vegeta & Freeza knew of. The Saiyans were required to contradict their natures to reach that plateau. The myth is representative of Broli more than it is the rest of the Saiyans. The notion that the enemies after Freeza were a "problem" that needed "to be fixed" is creatively limited.

That said, I may be the rare individual that enjoys Super Saiyan getting its "reality check" in the next arc. The idea that it should remain untouchable after its debut never rubbed me the right way. The series loves to preach that there's always someone stronger. Vegeta was a perfect device to hammer that message. He truly believed he was the mightiest of the mighty until the Artificial Humans forced him & the rest of the Saiyans to innovate their transformation. In any standard series, Super Saiyan would be the end-all superpower. In Toriyama's world, there's still always room for improvement. No one is above humility. I'm personally glad the characters were forced to push what they thought was the limit right past "the wall"!

I don't think setting a precedent of devaluing everything is a good thing, it takes away any sense of amazement when we see something new since we know in a few chapters/episodes it'll be useless.

[PsionicWarrior]

And nobody likes Goten and Trunks for basically ruining the super Saiyan legend, even though Vegeta did the same. But Goten and Trunk's case was much more in your face, then Vegeta's was

Since when are legends accurate mate lol
It makes perfect sense other Saiyajins are able to do it lol

[Gog]

And nobody likes Goten and Trunks for basically ruining the super Saiyan legend, even though Vegeta did the same. But Goten and Trunk's case was much more in your face, then Vegeta's was

Since when are legends accurate mate lol
It makes perfect sense other Saiyajins are able to do it lol

Yeah you mean the two children who were capable at doing it at birth?

[Gog]

Although, doesn't Goten/Trunks having Super Saiyan contradict this whole ideal you conceived?

And nobody likes Goten and Trunks for basically ruining the super Saiyan legend, even though Vegeta did the same. But Goten and Trunk's case was much more in your face, then Vegeta's was

In what way do you feel contradiction was present? Trunks & Goten are described as easily mastering Super Saiyan. They weren't cited to forsake possession of a tranquil heart & feeling intense rage when they first transformed. If anything, they're representative of humility never striking them & fulfilling Turtle Hermit's old fear with Goku & Kuririn. If you recall, Turtle Hermit believed that without challenge, they would become content with their power & regress, ultimately failing to test themselves further. That's pretty much what happens with Trunks & Goten.

Being tailless half-Saiyans, tremendous power was granted to them from birth. The amount of challenges & walls they encountered pale in comparison to the main cast's tribulations. They are continuously slighted for slacking off & never taking martial arts seriously. In their perspective, what's the point? They're already part of Earth's finest & talented in their own right. By being allied with veteran warriors, their opportunity for "reality checks" rarely comes by. It's made no better with their reliance of Metamor Fusion. They're never forced to innovate too often when they may simply rely on each other's strength when they wish. It makes them different types of characters, but not bad characters.

They're the anti-thesis to Goku & Vegeta's philosophies & I don't believe there's anything wrong with showcasing such a comparison. With the latter, they're all about never being satisfied with their best. With Trunks & Goten, their best is "good enough" & they have alternate outlets if they require assistance. The apparent purpose is that they're mostly against the series' message & they're portrayed in a negative light for their behavior. I'm cool with the variety of personalities to illustrate a point because it later reveals Turtle Hermit's fears with Goku & Kuririn. Despite all my rambling, I would like to hear why either of you view contradiction with that in regard to Super Saiyan. I personally wrote why I think "the Super Saiyan legend" is being made more than what it is from the actual script. Broli is what Vegeta thought a real Super Saiyan was like yet they're beings who mostly reject unrestrained intent.

No, I'm not mad at them for that, I'm just annoyed that they were capable of doing it at birth, with no training. Its just annoying how they got Super Saiyan that's all sorry that I didn't specify properly

[PsionicWarrior]

No, I'm not mad at them for that, I'm just annoyed that they were capable of doing it at birth, with no training. Its just annoying how they got Super Saiyan that's all sorry that I didn't specify properly

[/quote]

But this leads to the awesome follow-up with them becoming the last hope and the symbolism of the new gen carrying over at some point lol
In the end Goku still saves the day, couldn't have done it without M. Satan and others like Buu or Vegeta though lol

[emperior]

In my opinion the best compromise would have been to only have Super Saiyan without its powered forms (SSJ2, SSJ3) the bulked up forms could still exist and Gohan would turn SSJ at the Cell Games.

Though SSJ2 and SSJ3 are awesome and I like the serie as it is. Maybe giving Goten and Trunks SSJ was useless, it could have been made so that they can only transform when fused. Would also explain why nowadays they've been dropped

[Lord Beerus]

I personally think there should have been no more forms after Super Saiyan and cast should have used their intelligence to actually win battles instead of relying who can hit the hardest and power up the quickest.

[PsionicWarrior]

I personally think there should have no more forms after Super Saiyan and cast should have used their intelligence to actually win battles instead of relying who can hit the hardest and power up the quickest.

But that's the most entertaining parts mate, every powerup, every transformation is a big moment, you remember very cleary the first time you saw them lol

[Mac]

No, but I do think no one should've surpassed SSJ, Gohan could've been the sole exception with SSJ2, and that's it. Gives more opportunities for tactical fighting instead of power level stuff.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

No, but I do think no one should've surpassed SSJ, Gohan could've been the sole exception with SSJ2, and that's it. Gives more opportunities for tactical fighting instead of power level stuff.

Something like that wouldn't create a series with strategy-based fights, it would shift the focus of fighting to Super Saiyans exclusively. In fact, that's pretty much exactly what happened, Piccolo being the only occasional exception.

[Nejishiki]

I don't think setting a precedent of devaluing everything is a good thing, it takes away any sense of amazement when we see something new since we know in a few chapters/episodes it'll be useless.

Well, that's part of the subject I want to address. Goku & Freeza's original battle is not devalued by future events. That sort of perspective seems to devalue the organic journey we took to get there. When read & watched as intended, chapter-by-chapter, episode-by-episode, the gravity chamber of what we experience is appropriately portrayed. Their classic tale is no less exciting now than it was in the past because of upcoming arcs. You wouldn't say "Kaio-ken x20's Kamehameha was a waste of time because we knew Super Saiyan was coming up soon" because the story itself doesn't know that yet. Analyzing events as a whole may lead to your belief that everything is being trivialized when it's properly set & executed.

Let's view Super Saiyan's usage in context. We spend considerable time with it in its debut, learning the essentials. When it returns, it's stronger & dispatches enhanced versions of the previous antagonists. When Goku returns, he reveals how he improved it exponentially. The setup is established & the twist that Super Saiyan isn't as untouchable as universally believed comes off as a shock.

To build setup, our protagonists prepare for the Artificial Humans via their standard training methods. In execution, everyone, Super Saiyans included, are nearly killed despite building upon powers that were already mightier than before. Their old thoughts aren't going to cut it anymore because their current mindset is limiting Super Saiyan. With their reality checks cashed, they're forced to innovate, birthing the concept of Graded Super Saiyans.

We spend appropriate time with the concept, learning its positives & negatives yet the formula still isn't quite right. The narrative shows with Vegeta & Future Trunks & tells with Goku's theories. There's natural evolution at play & the next step, Grade IV, is organically introduced after we view alternate methods. This is nicely paced, fleshes the mechanics of Super Saiyan, and is plenty exciting from the standard trope of "locked superpower". Is there not genuine amazement through this journey? Isn't that creative instead of writing, say, two more arcs with the standard Super Saiyan? Shaking concepts up keeps escalation flowing; methods of old are required to change constantly. The characters & the audience always seek the next step.

It makes perfect sense other Saiyajins are able to do it lol

I wouldn't go that far. There's a reason native Saiyans couldn't achieve it. They were generally slaves to their natural desires & incapable of true composure. I strictly speak in context of those who reached those heights. All of those characters were unlike any individual before them.

No, I'm not mad at them for that, I'm just annoyed that they were capable of doing it at birth, with no training. Its just annoying how they got Super Saiyan that's all sorry that I didn't specify properly

I think your dissatisfaction with the children is starting to cloud what's actually portrayed. Trunks & Goten did train & improve their martial arts, to a point & without proper fundamentals. They did so under the guise of playtime, yeah, but it's misrepresentation to distance events from what they were. You'll end up remembering things that weren't there. I know I tend to do that until I read the story again!

[PsionicWarrior]

It makes perfect sense other Saiyajins are able to do it lol

I wouldn't go that far. There's a reason native Saiyans couldn't achieve it. They were generally slaves to their natural desires & incapable of true composure. I strictly speak in context of those who reached those heights. All of those characters were unlike any individual before them.

Agreed with your given context but still, from the point one can achieve it I find it only natural the others can too if they know in which direction they have to work for it lol

[TheUltimateNinja]

I don't think setting a precedent of devaluing everything is a good thing, it takes away any sense of amazement when we see something new since we know in a few chapters/episodes it'll be useless.

Well, that's part of the subject I want to address. Goku & Freeza's original battle is not devalued by future events. That sort of perspective seems to devalue the organic journey we took to get there. When read & watched as intended, chapter-by-chapter, episode-by-episode, the gravity chamber of what we experience is appropriately portrayed. Their classic tale is no less exciting now than it was in the past because of upcoming arcs. You wouldn't say "Kaio-ken x20's Kamehameha was a waste of time because we knew Super Saiyan was coming up soon" because the story itself doesn't know that yet. Analyzing events as a whole may lead to your belief that everything is being trivialized when it's properly set & executed.

Kaioken and Super Saiyan are inherently different, however. Kaioken was always shown to be a dangerous and somewhat unreliable technique with a very short time limit after which it leaves you almost completely drained, however SSJ doesn't really have any notable defects (Well, besides SSJ3, but it still lasts much longer than Kaioken). SSJ was also presented as the limit of a Saiyan's power for a while whereas Kaioken was simply a technique.

Also, that moment would have been devalued if Kaioken were an SSJ-like transformation. Let's say this pattern of obtaining new forms started back at the end of DB and Goku went SSJ to beat Piccolo, SSJ2 to beat Nappa & Vegeta, SSJ3 to beat the Ginyu force and so on. If Goku were to then go SSJ4 and fire off a Kamehameha that Frieza blocks with half his power, it wouldn't hold any weight at all because we'd know he'd probably achieve SSJ5 at the end and beat Frieza.

Let's view Super Saiyan's usage in context. We spend considerable time with it in its debut, learning the essentials. When it returns, it's stronger & dispatches enhanced versions of the previous antagonists. When Goku returns, he reveals how he improved it exponentially. The setup is established & the twist that Super Saiyan isn't as untouchable as universally believed comes off as a shock.

It's not really much of a shock, the villains of the next arc are obviously going to be stronger than the heroes if they're to present a threat. I just find to be pretty poor writing that Gero was able to singlehandedly make 2 teenagers far more powerful than the most powerful beings in the universe (Besides Buu and the Gods/Demons) by adding some cyborg parts to them. By his own admission he stopped monitoring Goku after the Saiyan Arc so he overshot his target by a massive margin.

Also, Trunks already revealed that all of the Super Saiyans besides himself were dead in the future, so we already knew that the androids were stronger than the SSJs before we even saw them.

To build setup, our protagonists prepare for the Artificial Humans via their standard training methods. In execution, everyone, Super Saiyans included, are nearly killed despite building upon powers that were already mightier than before. Their old thoughts aren't going to cut it anymore because their current mindset is limiting Super Saiyan. With their reality checks cashed, they're forced to innovate, birthing the concept of Graded Super Saiyans.

We spend appropriate time with the concept, learning its positives & negatives yet the formula still isn't quite right. The narrative shows with Vegeta & Future Trunks & tells with Goku's theories. There's natural evolution at play & the next step, Grade IV, is organically introduced after we view alternate methods. This is nicely paced, fleshes the mechanics of Super Saiyan, and is plenty exciting from the standard trope of "locked superpower". Is there not genuine amazement through this journey? Isn't that creative instead of writing, say, two more arcs with the standard Super Saiyan? Shaking concepts up keeps escalation flowing; methods of old are required to change constantly. The characters & the audience always seek the next step.

Honestly, I'd be fine with most of the transformations with some slight changes, namely making it so that SSJ2 and SSJ3 aren't distinct transformations. I'd have SSJ2 be the fully mastered version of SSJ, essentially the "true" Grade 4/FPSSJ, and I'd have SSJ3 be Goku's way of adding the Grade forms' power to FPSSJ/SSJ2 without any speed loss at the expense of tremendous energy drain.

[kinisking]

No, I'm not a huge fan of temporary power ups.

[Gog]

No, I'm not a huge fan of temporary power ups.

Me see's what you did their, and me has been knocked off the chair while laughing.

[Akyon]

I personally think there should have been no more forms after Super Saiyan and cast should have used their intelligence to actually win battles instead of relying who can hit the hardest and power up the quickest.

I'm with Lord Beerus here.

Not only did multiple transformations render the non Saiyan Squad totally worthless, they also were not BIG exciting moments. "Oh wow, Goku's getting his ass kicked here. Sure hope he finds a way to over come the opponent with a clever strategy, or tactics or a new technique or-oh no, he's just magically stronger than the opponent now by growing his hair and losing his eyebrows. Cool."

The initial transformation was exciting because it was brand new. It was a legendary form. It was incredible. After that we had so many more SSJ forms it quickly lost it's novelty and became the norm and in doing so lost that "WOW" factor it originally had.

[PsionicWarrior]

"Oh wow, Goku's getting his ass kicked here. Sure hope he finds a way to over come the opponent with a clever strategy, or tactics or a new technique or-oh no, he's just magically stronger than the opponent now by growing his hair and losing his eyebrows. Cool."

It's not magically lol

[Gog]

"Oh wow, Goku's getting his ass kicked here. Sure hope he finds a way to over come the opponent with a clever strategy, or tactics or a new technique or-oh no, he's just magically stronger than the opponent now by growing his hair and losing his eyebrows. Cool."

It's not magically lol

Its asspull-y, not magical.

[PsionicWarrior]

Who cares lol

[Gog]

Who cares lol

Apparently everyone in this thread do.