Fan Service

[ABED]

If memory serves, Maron is Kuririn's girlfriend in the Garlic Jr. arc. Marron is his and 18's daughter.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Um... So you want fanservice because it might make them entertaining. My, My brain cannot. Comprehend

Marron was a boring plank of wood, with big pieces of flab attached to the chest. You know what, Chi Chi, Bulma, and Vados, are busty enough, they don't need to roam around in skin tight red clothing with shows just enough skin, that you feel your little man standing up. That would be stupid, and would stand out like a sore thumb.

You know what, I still stand by it, if I want fan service I'll go into the sex fanart thread, If I want dragon ball. I'll watch Dragon ball super.

You're overreacting. And, what can your mind not comprehend? Is it I think well executed fanservice would be a nice change to make the characters entertaining for me or is it how can I possibly think fanservice can make a character entertaining?

The Marron and Kuririn sub-plot was the only thing I gave a shit about in the utter boring crap that was the Garlic Jr. arc, but the staff didn't do much with her, so yeah you could say that she was a failed attempt at fanservice and a wasted character.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

How would fanservice play into making DB women less boring?

Entertainment is of various types. With all the official material we've got none of the female characters had any sort of entertainment value to them in my opinion.

So, I think well executed fanservice would be a change and a territory the franchise hasn't gone into. I would like to see it even though I know it's very unlikely.

[TheGreatness25]

If memory serves, Maron is Kuririn's girlfriend in the Garlic Jr. arc. Marron is his and 18's daughter.

There is no such distinction in Funimation's dub spelling nor Steve Simmons's translated spelling. I'm not sure if their Japanese names are spelled differently, but I'd guess not. Kuririn's daughter's name is spelled as "Marron" in Viz's version of the manga. I think this is the fans' way of coping with the awkwardness of the situation lol

I'm a firm believer in moving forward and exploring something new rather than dwelling on the past. So to me, if you're continuing the series, explore new ground with it. Naturally, fan service goes against that.

I do believe that there is way too much fan service now. Look at Burdock. What the hell happened to his character? Why even touch him? Fan service.

Future Trunks? You people couldn't even figure out what to do with current Trunks but you bring back future Trunks? The story that fans felt he could have had -- his happy ending -- was gone now. Why? Fan service.

Vegetto. For the love of all that is holy, why? Why touch Vegetto? How can the series legitimately go on when I know that all Goku and Vegeta have to do is slap on some Potara earrings and presto? So either they have to resort to fusion in every fight from now on, or I'll know that the villain is not too powerful because fusion is always in the back pocket. It made sense that they'd not want to do it before, but now that it's not permanent, then what's the excuse? Why touch Vegetto? Fan service.

Z, GT, and Super place high value on transformations, and they should. There are only so many of their own limits that they could break through. In order for the story to progress, there has to be a way of getting stronger. Enter transformations. But, really? I can see the thought that people like the design of Super Saiyan. So take that, recolor it, and voila! Transformation. Fan service.


I would much rather have new characters (I cannot take this away from Super, though), new, new, new. Go nuts. Explore new things never imagined before. Instead, arguably the best arc is focused on fan service -- future Trunks and an evil Goku.

[ABED]

There is no such distinction in Funimation's dub spelling nor Steve Simmons's translated spelling.

Sure about that one?

Vegetto. For the love of all that is holy, why? Why touch Vegetto? How can the series legitimately go on when I know that all Goku and Vegeta have to do is slap on some Potara earrings and presto? So either they have to resort to fusion in every fight from now on, or I'll know that the villain is not too powerful because fusion is always in the back pocket. It made sense that they'd not want to do it before, but now that it's not permanent, then what's the excuse? Why touch Vegetto? Fan service.

There are a number of reasons in universe for fusing into Vegetto, so this one depends on execution. If you could fuse together with a dance and found yourself overwhelmed to the point of hopelessness, would you not do it? See, there are organic reasons for it. The distinction between Vegetto and Gogeta are irrelevant in this discussion.

Z, GT, and Super place high value on transformations, and they should. There are only so many of their own limits that they could break through. In order for the story to progress, there has to be a way of getting stronger. Enter transformations. But, really? I can see the thought that people like the design of Super Saiyan. So take that, recolor it, and voila! Transformation. Fan service.

I don't see the transformations as fanservice as much as just uncreative writing.

arguably the best arc is focused on fan service -- future Trunks and an evil Goku.

How is Evil Goku fanservice? I haven't seen Super, but wasn't it Zamasu in some alternate form?

the staff didn't do much with her

What could they do? She's not a warrior, but what they did do was create a pretty compelling episode where Kuririn lets her go and his fake laugh/real cry at the end is heartbreaking.

[TheGreatness25]

There is no such distinction in Funimation's dub spelling nor Steve Simmons's translated spelling.

Sure about that one?

Pretty sure. And if Funimation's Dragon Ball Z website wasn't a shell of its former self, I would have probably found a character page to show you, but I guess Funimation's going to make it hard on me and I have to put up screenshots of it. I don't have time for this lol

Z, GT, and Super place high value on transformations, and they should. There are only so many of their own limits that they could break through. In order for the story to progress, there has to be a way of getting stronger. Enter transformations. But, really? I can see the thought that people like the design of Super Saiyan. So take that, recolor it, and voila! Transformation. Fan service.

I don't see the transformations as fanservice as much as just uncreative writing.

Nothing fan servicy about transformations at all; transformations are important. But what they look like?

arguably the best arc is focused on fan service -- future Trunks and an evil Goku.

Evil Goku isn't fanservice.

I've been reading fanfics about evil Goku since 1998.

[ABED]

I've been reading fanfics about evil Goku since 1998.

It's a trope in fiction to have a dark mirror of the protagonist. Execution is what matters.

Pretty sure. And if Funimation's Dragon Ball Z website wasn't a shell of its former self, I would have probably found a character page to show you, but I guess Funimation's going to make it hard on me and I have to put up screenshots of it. I don't have time for this lol

That wouldn't help your case as I'm not going with Funimation's spelling. Remember, this is the company that spelled Freeza as F-R-I-E-Z-A.

Nothing fan servicy about transformations at all; transformations are important. But what they look like?

Not remotely fanservice, just uncreative.

[TheGreatness25]

I've been reading fanfics about evil Goku since 1998.

It's a trope in fiction to have a dark mirror of the protagonist. Execution is what matters.

So you're saying that the idea behind something makes no difference to whether it's being fan service or not? If the fans marveled at the idea of an evil Goku and that's what they got, that's not fan service to you because of the execution?

Pretty sure. And if Funimation's Dragon Ball Z website wasn't a shell of its former self, I would have probably found a character page to show you, but I guess Funimation's going to make it hard on me and I have to put up screenshots of it. I don't have time for this lol

That wouldn't help your case as I'm not going with Funimation's spelling. Remember, this is the company that spelled Freeza as F-R-I-E-Z-A.

It sure wouldn't help my case, but I did say that there's no distinction in either the dub nor Japanese version. I was going through some episodes and even where the Funimation version does say her name, the Japanese one doesn't. Does anyone ever actually say her name in the anime? lol

EDIT
All right, well the only place I could find the name spelling that Steve Simmons used was in the very last (number seven) Dragon Book. Yeah, it has it spelled as "Marron" and has Kuririn's ex-girlfriend as "Maron." Though, really, Kuririn's daughter is "マーロン" and his ex-girlfriend is "マロン." There is a little difference.

Even in GT, her dub name is with the double "R." Agh, I guess I overlooked it when putting together my list of name variations between the dub and original. That's my mistake.

You see, I'm not understanding your idea of "fan service." Theoretically, it's giving people what they want. So I listed that they gave people an evil Goku, a new transformation that looked nearly identical to the one that they liked the most (Super Saiyan 1), they gave the fans Vegetto (prematurely in my estimation) all because these are popular things that fans have been imagining and talking about for years. But then you come back at me with "Well it all depends on execution." So to me, just the fact that they resorted to those ideas is fan service. In the end, I'm agreeing with your original post. But if you have a different notion of "fan service" than I do, whatever you say.

[ABED]

All right, well the only place I could find the name spelling that Steve Simmons used was in the very last (number seven) Dragon Book. Yeah, it has it spelled as "Marron" and has Kuririn's ex-girlfriend as "Maron." Though, really, Kuririn's daughter is "マーロン" and his ex-girlfriend is "マロン." There is a little difference.

That makes all the difference. They are two different characters and one way to know the difference is the spelling of their name.

Theoretically, it's giving people what they want.

And yours seems limited purely to the negative column. Sure, fanservice can be something as vague as "giving fans what they want", but an evil Goku doesn't fall into that category necessarily. Writers do it all the time and not because they want to appeal to fans, but rather they like a foil for the hero. Vegetto is a matter of execution. Sure, it can be bad if it doesn't feel right for the story and done purely for the nostalgia pop, but given the results, why wouldn't the heroes use such a technique?

So you're saying that the idea behind something makes no difference to whether it's being fan service or not?

No, and how do you know what the idea was behind an Evil Goku? Were you there when they wrote it? Writers have used this trope forever.

[Doctor.]

What do you define as fan service?

Good question and it's a vague term, but the Wikipedia entry says "giving the fans 'exactly what they want.' Fan service usually refers to 'gratuitous titillation', but can also refer to intertextual references to other series or story and visual elements that audiences tend to desire."

But what constitutes as what "fans want"? Every fan wants something different. Popular opinion isn't something that can be quantified.

[ABED]

What do you define as fan service?

Good question and it's a vague term, but the Wikipedia entry says "giving the fans 'exactly what they want.' Fan service usually refers to 'gratuitous titillation', but can also refer to intertextual references to other series or story and visual elements that audiences tend to desire."

But what constitutes as what "fans want"? Every fan wants something different. Popular opinion isn't something that can be quantified.

Great point, which goes to the whole "vague or broad definition".

[Doctor.]

Vegetto. For the love of all that is holy, why? Why touch Vegetto? How can the series legitimately go on when I know that all Goku and Vegeta have to do is slap on some Potara earrings and presto? So either they have to resort to fusion in every fight from now on, or I'll know that the villain is not too powerful because fusion is always in the back pocket. It made sense that they'd not want to do it before, but now that it's not permanent, then what's the excuse? Why touch Vegetto? Fan service.

I don't know about you, but the mere existence of fusion already brings up the problem of "Why aren't they fusing? They could beat this guy in an instant if they fused". The Potara's existence just exacerbated that problem even more by making it a quick, permanent fusion that could be undone any time with a quick trip inside of Mr. Boo's body. The fact that Super bothered to actually address the fact that they could fuse and finish the fight and, not only that, but gave the fusion limitations to explain how they will not use it in the future is actually a positive aspect, not a negative one.

I seriously cannot comprehend how you're attributing this flaw to Super and not to the original manga for even creating Vegetto in the first place.

[ABED]

I don't know about you, but the mere existence of fusion already brings up the problem of "Why aren't they fusing?

Very true.

They could beat this guy in an instant if they fused".

Eh, you lost me there. They didn't know that, it proved true, but it's only proven to be the case once they fused.

The Potara's existence just exacerbated that problem even more by making it a quick, permanent fusion that could be undone any time with a quick trip inside of Mr. Boo's body.

But they didn't know that and it's a hell of a gamble they took when they allowed Buu to absorb them.

[Doctor.]

Eh, you lost me there. They didn't know that, it proved true, but it's only proven to be the case once they fused.

But they didn't know that and it's a hell of a gamble they took when they allowed Buu to absorb them.

I mean post-Boo. Any threat that ever appears after Boo will suffer from a lack of tension because we, the audience, will be asking in the back of our heads why they aren't fusion, they would most likely be able to beat the opponent with fusion.

So, I find it strange that TheGreatness25 is only noticing this problem now with Vegetto's appearance in the Zamasu arc when these problems have been present ever since Vegetto appeared for the first time and he proved to be such a powerhouse.

[TheGreatness25]

I don't know about you, but the mere existence of fusion already brings up the problem of "Why aren't they fusing? They could beat this guy in an instant if they fused". The Potara's existence just exacerbated that problem even more by making it a quick, permanent fusion that could be undone any time with a quick trip inside of Mr. Boo's body. The fact that Super bothered to actually address the fact that they could fuse and finish the fight and, not only that, but gave the fusion limitations to explain how they will not use it in the future is actually a positive aspect, not a negative one.

I seriously cannot comprehend how you're attributing this flaw to Super and not to the original manga for even creating Vegetto in the first place.

Don't get me wrong; I didn't like the fusion characters in the manga either. But there was a difference. First of all, they came along toward the end. That kind of makes a big difference. Up until their last villain, there was no sense of, "Hey, we could just fuse!"

Another big difference is that there was a weakness -- and I'm not talking just about the time limit. The fusion dance had a weakness that they had to perfectly learn how to do it, because if not, they'd turn into an inadequate version of the fusion. Plus, another weakness was that an opponent would probably not stand idly by and allow the participants to perform the fusion dance. This made this particular form of fusion undesirable and inefficient in battle. Yes, there was a time limit, but it's not so much the time limit as when they have to refuse. They'd be lucky enough to fuse the first time and if the battle doesn't end within the 30 minutes, I doubt they'd get the opportunity to do it again.

The Potara fusion also had a huge weakness that made in undesirable. The Potara fusion was supposed to be permanent. That is why it was to be taken as an absolute last resort and after Goku and Vegeta miraculously (what are the odds, right?) diffused, they didn't seem too interested in the idea of beings stuck together forever and ever. So, that made the Potara fusion undesirable.

I didn't see this for myself, but from what I understand, there's a time limit on the Potara fusion, right? So all they have to do is slap on the Potara earrings, fuse, and they don't have to worry about the Potara's undesirable traits anymore because they will unfuse. Again, the only thing that would keep them away from it was that it was permanent. And after diffusing, all they have to do is take the earring off and put it back on, so the part that makes the fusion dance undesirable is also gone. Or am I missing something? Is there a rule that they can't perform it for some period of time? Even so, it would still behoove them to fuse even if it's for a short while, because that would still fare better than them as individuals.

Again, I don't know if Zamasu was more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue (hate this freaking name) Vegetto, but if he was, what's that say about every villain that comes next? That would mean that every villain is weaker than Zamasu if Goku and Vegeta are not using fusion against him or her. And if the villain is more powerful, what's stopping Goku and Vegeta from fusing? That's my entire point about this.

Don't get me wrong, if it turns out to be better executed and thought out than I give it credit for, I'll gladly accept it. But for right now, I feel like they blew their wad with the Super Saiyan Blue Vegetto too early. This kind of trump card should be saved for last.

[ABED]

Eh, you lost me there. They didn't know that, it proved true, but it's only proven to be the case once they fused.

But they didn't know that and it's a hell of a gamble they took when they allowed Buu to absorb them.

I mean post-Boo. Any threat that ever appears after Boo will suffer from a lack of tension because we, the audience, will be asking in the back of our heads why they aren't fusion, they would most likely be able to beat the opponent with fusion.

So, I find it strange that TheGreatness25 is only noticing this problem now with Vegetto's appearance in the Zamasu arc when these problems have been present ever since Vegetto appeared for the first time and he proved to be such a powerhouse.

First, if the threat is sufficient, then the fusion isn't a guaranteed knock out blow. In the case of Buu, the aim wasn't to simply destroy Buu. Lastly, the main characters have in-character reasons for not resorting to fusion every time. They love a fight, first and foremost, and will only use fusion as a last resort.

[TheGreatness25]

Eh, you lost me there. They didn't know that, it proved true, but it's only proven to be the case once they fused.

But they didn't know that and it's a hell of a gamble they took when they allowed Buu to absorb them.

I mean post-Boo. Any threat that ever appears after Boo will suffer from a lack of tension because we, the audience, will be asking in the back of our heads why they aren't fusion, they would most likely be able to beat the opponent with fusion.

So, I find it strange that TheGreatness25 is only noticing this problem now with Vegetto's appearance in the Zamasu arc when these problems have been present ever since Vegetto appeared for the first time and he proved to be such a powerhouse.

First, if the threat is sufficient, then the fusion isn't a guaranteed knock out blow. In the case of Buu, the aim wasn't to simply destroy Buu. Lastly, the main characters have in-character reasons for not resorting to fusion every time. They love a fight, first and foremost, and will only use fusion as a last resort.

It's not a guaranteed knockout blow (in fact, who'd fusion ever beat? lol), but it's still a much better blow than not fusing.

You're right about the characters having their reasons not to fuse, but those reasons have as much to do with the characters' personalities as they do with the fusions' respective weaknesses; in which case, the Potara's main weakness was taken away in Super.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball Super Episode #66 was definitely a play at the sort of 'combat' fan service of bringing back Vegetto and making him a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, to say nothing of the fact that they can now sell more merchandise of him. The episode really falls flat, though, because it is not a successful ride of fan service. The only good piece of animation is from Shida Naotoshi, who manages a sixty second segment that is still filled with a lot of conservative animation. When Bleach did a big fan service episode it brought on a plethora of talented animators who were all able to turn in great work. I am, of course, speaking of Bleach Episode #341.

I don't think fanservice is bad if fans get things they know and love but it's used organically like at the end of Skyfall where things come full circle. It's annoying, but tolerable when there are inorganic moments that are still kinda cool (Vader being badass at the end of Rogue One), but the worst of it is when the moments or story exist SOLELY to pop the fans often the expense of the story and characters because fans have fond memories of something they previously saw. I don't enjoy seeing a long running series devolve into a series of callbacks to moments or characters I loved in the past. The reason I loved those moments were because they were new.

A couple of people here bring up Social media, but I really hope that isn't the reason for this proliferation of fanservice as I don't think social media reactions are indicative of the overall audience.

That Vader scene was awful. Why didn't he use the Force to stop everyone in place and pull back the data rod before that guy got so far? It wasn't exactly that long of a corridor. Par for the course for a film so wrapped up in its narrative it never takes the time to develop its characters, though.

Actually now that you talk about it. I'm glad that we're not getting fan service of the tits and ass variant, like One Piece, as I'm going to say it. Its annoying and distracting and adds nothing too the plot. Unless they manage to add fan service without intruding on the plot.

But besides that, let the fan service stay at the sexy fan art section, and let it stay there ever more

Japanese comics and animation are deeply rooted in sex. It only makes sense for their to be a plethora of it. Most works are created by Otaku (who ultimately will serve their own Otaku needs) and you cannot be an Otaku unless you are a horny fucker attracted to 2D women. As more creators pile into this franchise it is only natural to expect their influence to shine through, especially when such an influence would be rich with passion a this franchise so desperately needs to see shine through.

That being said, fuck the plot. All that matters is getting drawings that tell you what you need to know about how the artist and characters feel. Tying everything's importance into narrative is just an excuse to make up for a creator's inability to do anything but thing up general plot ideas, rather than make a completed television work, film or comic. One will far sooner create a work of artistic merit not by trying to push a message for the sake of critical acclaim, but by being honest about one's feelings and pouring that honesty into one's work.

Nothing wrong with that fanservice. I would love to see it happen, but execution once again is the most important. Dragon Ball women are so unbearably boring that it would be a nice change to see if fanservice makes them entertaining or not.

Marron was somewhat of an exception. But, there was so much more the staff could've done with her, but they didn't. I guess it's the stupid mainstream effect like JulieYBM said that'll forever keep Dragon Ball devoid of it.

Dragon Ball woman are so unbearably boring because of multiple factors. One being, of course, Toriyama isn't comfortable with his sexuality and the others being two-fold: the leaders of the animated projects are too afraid to break from Toriyama's general workings and the ultra-conservative nature of older members of Toei Animation. Look at Dragon Ball Super Episode #74, for example. We never see Videl get hit, likely because of her being a mom, but also because of the time slot and the series' general kowtowing to the ridiculous western sensibilities slowly infesting Japanese children's content. Then we have Maron, who never went anywhere because Nishio and friends had no nerve to go anywhere with her.

[Doctor.]

Don't get me wrong; I didn't like the fusion characters in the manga either. But there was a difference. First of all, they came along toward the end. That kind of makes a big difference. Up until their last villain, there was no sense of, "Hey, we could just fuse!"

That's fine, but you're saying that only now that Vegetto appeared again will you think that they could fuse against any future opponent and get it done with. That's not true, you should have been thinking that since Super started because they should logically be using fusion to deal with any big threat after Boo.

The Potara fusion also had a huge weakness that made in undesirable. The Potara fusion was supposed to be permanent. That is why it was to be taken as an absolute last resort and after Goku and Vegeta miraculously (what are the odds, right?) diffused, they didn't seem too interested in the idea of beings stuck together forever and ever. So, that made the Potara fusion undesirable.

The Potara is an awfully convenient way of fusion. You just need to put the earrings on and done. You don't need to learn the dance. You don't need to time stall to even do the dance in the first place. And, best of all, the boost was bigger than the dance's and the fusion was permanent, meaning there would be no risk of running out of Ki mid-fight and defusing.

The fact that it's permanent isn't a weakness the moment they befriended Boo. They can make a quick trip inside his body and undo the fusion. So, again, this lack of tension you noticed will be present from here on out should have already been present from the start of DBS.

I didn't see this for myself, but from what I understand, there's a time limit on the Potara fusion, right? So all they have to do is slap on the Potara earrings, fuse, and they don't have to worry about the Potara's undesirable traits anymore because they will unfuse. Again, the only thing that would keep them away from it was that it was permanent. And after diffusing, all they have to do is take the earring off and put it back on, so the part that makes the fusion dance undesirable is also gone. Or am I missing something? Is there a rule that they can't perform it for some period of time? Even so, it would still behoove them to fuse even if it's for a short while, because that would still fare better than them as individuals.

But again, it wasn't permanent ever since the Boo arc. They could defuse if they just asked Boo to absorb them whilst they had a barrier up. That's literally how easy it is to undo the fusion.

Not using the Potaras against any threat would be stupid, not the other way around. Now that Super actually limited the Potaras by making it a 1-hour time limit and making it so that, like the dance, outputing too much energy will shorten the limit (Gowasu says this and Vegetto's fusion lasted barely 5 minutes) basically means that both fusions are useless and will probably never be used again as their power keeps growing.

Super is actually filling in holes with this, not creating more. You will never once again think "why aren't they fusing?" because they've made it clear that both fusions are now useless.

Again, I don't know if Zamasu was more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue (hate this freaking name) Vegetto, but if he was, what's that say about every villain that comes next?

He wasn't. He was much weaker and only survived because of his immortality and the fact the time limit ran out.

That would mean that every villain is weaker than Zamasu if Goku and Vegeta are not using fusion against him or her.

This isn't a problem. You don't need to keep escalating battle powers to make a villain a threat.

And if the villain is more powerful, what's stopping Goku and Vegeta from fusing? That's my entire point about this.

Again, Super already addressed this. The more energy you output, the shorter the fusion time.

[TheGreatness25]

Yeah, fusion existed since Super's beginning, but it's easy to cut it some slack. And the theory about having Boo absorb Vegetto is good, except it could also be presented that the characters aren't really sure of all the factors leading up to Vegetto's diffusing, so taking a chance on that is pretty high-stakes.

But I don't particularly care about Vegetto being in Super; I'm just thinking that they might have gone all-out already. In the very least, Goku and Vegeta are so much more powerful than they were in Z, but I don't see them ever catching up to Vegetto's power now that he had his Super incarnation. The series is kind of all about power escalation.

Regardless, I just hope that it was executed nicely for when I watch it. I still think that it's no coincidence that Vegetto made an appearance instead of figuring out another way to win against Zamasu. I do firmly believe that the decision to throw Vegetto in there was due to his popularity among the fans (to tie it back up to the thread).