"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

...we likely won't see Trunks get a new form either.

The "Trunks gets new transformation" plotpoint was already fulfilled in the Future Boo Arc flashback, in which he (presumably) achieves his mastered SS2 form after the death of Future Kibito.

That was just regular Super Saiyan 2.

[OLKv3]

...we likely won't see Trunks get a new form either.

The "Trunks gets new transformation" plotpoint was already fulfilled in the Future Boo Arc flashback, in which he (presumably) achieves his mastered SS2 form after the death of Future Kibito.

That was just regular Super Saiyan 2.

This. He didn't master SSJ2 until later, training as his life depended on it.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

...we likely won't see Trunks get a new form either.

The "Trunks gets new transformation" plotpoint was already fulfilled in the Future Boo Arc flashback, in which he (presumably) achieves his mastered SS2 form after the death of Future Kibito.

That was just regular Super Saiyan 2.

That was never specified, but even in that case, the plot-point was still fulfilled. We already know Trunks has a far more powerful version of SS2. I guess it's not a new form in the exact same way that SS Rage is, but it's close enough that I'm confident it corresponds to the same part of the Toriyama draft.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The "Trunks gets new transformation" plotpoint was already fulfilled in the Future Boo Arc flashback, in which he (presumably) achieves his mastered SS2 form after the death of Future Kibito.

That was just regular Super Saiyan 2.

This. He didn't master SSJ2 until later, training as his life depended on it.

I wouldn't call Trunks' powered-up SS2 as "Mastered Super Saiyan 2", or "Full Power Super Saiyan 2". Vegeta has taken Super Saiyan 2 to an even greater level, so Trunks hasn't mastered its power.

[LightBing]

Trunks has a different version/type/upgrade of SSJ2 that much is obvious. I like to call it Mastered SSJ2, while I name Vegeta's own version Mutated SSJ2 but that's my own categorization which doesn't matter for the point Jinzoninguen MULE is trying to convey: Trunks already has been given a power up. Which seems a story point from Mr.Toriyama's script and I agree.

Although in the manga this power up will likely be even more useless than it was in the anime. If in the anime, after the big fuss it made, the best he did was gain time. The same plot point likely won't happen here. The intention by the author I analyse it as giving the character his "little" victory in his struggle against Black. Both mediums have a different approach; the anime dramatizing it greatly making a huge show of it, while the manga chooses to make it a detail of Trunks resilience against such adversity.

I'm very happy to have these two versions, I wont deny that the anime version is great entertainment, even if it doesn't have the quiet character compliment the manga gives Trunks, by turning the power up into the classic shonen anger moment.

[GTx10]

The truth is Future Trunks SS2 Form being stronger/On par with SS3 Son Goku poer is just weird. Why not have Trunks become a SS3 and make it easier on all of us. Granted this has been a issue since Vegeta's "Angry SS" moment in BoG so...Meh? But I guess Trunks SS2 Form can be similar to Goku and Gohan's SS1 Forms from the Cell Arc. Its a state that allows a user to unleash all their power without drain...
As long as Son Goku's SSG and SSGSS Form are stronger than Trunks SS2 Form then everything works out. The Manga seems to point that fact out nicely so we, as fans are confused but "God" Forms are still given the spot light. In a way it seems like a lot of these new SS Forms are created by whether or not a character looks cool in that Form or not.
SS2 Trunks and the "Angry SS" Form trunks gets in the anime look cool. SSG Son Goku is super cute and SSBlue looks good on Son Goku and Vegeta. Maybe Toriyama, the Toei Staff, whatever, are going for a more "Well does the character look good as a Super Saiyan XYZ?" No? Then give him blue highlights and Broly eyes!" I'm merely guessing at this point.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Why not have Trunks become a SS3 and make it easier on all of us.

Because SS3 has been proven time and time again as a useless transformation. Why bother giving Trunks a power-up if he has to worry about dropping out of it after a few minutes? No, what we have now is the better option.

[sintzu]

Maybe Toriyama, the Toei Staff, whatever, are going for a more "Well does the character look good as a Super Saiyan XYZ?" No? Then give him blue highlights and Broly eyes!" I'm merely guessing at this point.

I've read comments about Vegeta not looking good in it so maybe that's exactly what they're doing.

Someone here found a way to make it all make sense.

He or she said that Goku gave Ssj2 & Ssj3 those names off the top of his head so maybe Ssj2, Ssj3 and the forms Vegeta and Trunks used are the same form.

The long hair form is just a Ssj2 that's power is out of control while the forms Vegeta and Trunks used are forms that are under control so they have the same or greater power but they look calm (short hair instead of long hair everywhere) and don't drain the user's power.

I doubt the writers were thinking that but in-universe it makes sense.

[Grimlock]

Because SS3 has been proven time and time again as a useless transformation. Why bother giving Trunks a power-up if he has to worry about dropping out of it after a few minutes? No, what we have now is the better option.

Despite its drawbacks, Super Saiyan 3 is still a stronger transformation, that's why it's called "3", which is a number above "2". The character can do more with it during his time limit than what he could do as a Super Saiyan 2. "Asspulling" something to make Super Saiyan 2 a superior transformation is... Well, as asspull usually is, a bullshit. And believe me, you are reading this from a Super Saiyan 2 fan.

It'd have been be better for Trunks to have Super Saiyan 3 or a completely new transformation that surpasses Super Saiyan 2, with its proper explanation other than raw rage and that don't leave any trait of doubt (like a blue aura, leading fans to think if that's godly Ki).

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Despite its drawbacks, Super Saiyan 3 is still a stronger transformation, that's why it's called "3", which is a number above "2". The character can do more with it during his time limit than what him could do as a Super Saiyan 2.

That's never been demonstrated to be the case. In fact, SS3 has never been useful due to its extensive drawbacks.

It'd have been be better for Trunks to have Super Saiyan 3 or a completely new transformation that surpasses Super Saiyan 2, with its proper explanation other than raw rage.

That's entirely opinion-based, but Trunks' mastered SS2 has every bit as much legitimacy as SS3, which wasn't explained at all.

[Grimlock]

That's never been demonstrated to be the case. In fact, SS3 has never been useful due to its extensive drawbacks.

You have a point, but only because Super Saiyan 3 was used in unfavorable moments for Goku and Gotenks was a kid (although I believe teen and adult Gotenks would be the same, his personality would make Super Saiyan 3 no justice...). We should've seen how Super Saiyan 3 would be handled by Vegeta. Future Trunks is known for not playing around with his opponents, so he would also make Super Saiyan 3 useful.

That's entirely opinion-based, but Trunks' mastered SS2 has every bit as much legitimacy as SS3, which wasn't explained at all.

if Super Saiyan 2 can be mastered to this point, why this hasn't been brought up before? There was never a hint that Super Saiyan 2 can be mastered like this. And if that is indeed possible, this should be enough to make Gotenks and mainly Gohan (as "Mastered Super Saiyan 2" seemingly surpasses Gohan's great hidden power) useful again, isn't?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

If Super Saiyan 2 can be mastered to this point, why this hasn't been brought up before? There was never a hint that Super Saiyan 2 can be mastered like this.

The obvious is that no one had thought of it yet. You could really make the same critique about lots of things in the original manga. Why wasn't SS hinted at sooner? It's not like Goku hadn't met the stated criteria before Namek. How come it was never hinted at that Boo could absorb people before Gotenks?

That's just off the top of my head. Any questions pertaining to "why didn't it happen before?" are irrelevant because they all have an obvious answer, no one had thought of it yet.

[Grimlock]

Why wasn't SS hinted at sooner? It's not like Goku hadn't met the stated criteria before Namek.

Although Super Saiyan is unlocked by strong emotions, it also requires a certain power level, which Goku never met it before.

How come it was never hinted at that Boo could absorb people before Gotenks?

Because when Buu absorbed the Kaioshins, no one was around except for Bibidi. Super Saiyan 2 was around and it was known since when Gohan first transformed, seven years passed and all that was dicovered was a superior transformation. If Super Saiyan 2 can be mastered, shouldn't they have figured it out during the timeskip? Like they found out about Super Saiyan Second Grade and Super Saiyan Third Grade.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Why wasn't SS hinted at sooner? It's not like Goku hadn't met the stated criteria before Namek.

Although Super Saiyan is unlocked by strong emotions, it also requires a certain power level, which Goku never met it before.

How come it was never hinted at that Boo could absorb people before Gotenks?

Because when Buu absorbed the Kaioshins, no one was around except for Bibidi. Super Saiyan 2 was around and it was known since when Gohan first transformed, seven years passed and all that was dicovered was a superior transformation.

You've missed the point entirely. These were all extra conditions that were applied after the fact, they had little relevance to the story as it was progressing. You seem to be thinking of this entirely from an in-universe perspective, that's not a realistic or useful approach for explaining anything.

[Grimlock]

You seem to be thinking of this entirely from an in-universe perspective, that's not a realistic or useful approach for explaining anything.

Indeed I am, purposely. I know that the obviously answer out-universe would be "Toriyama didn't think of it yet". But that's not an excuse for the in-universe, as I said, from the in-universe perspective, what Trunks showed in the manga, the way and context, makes it an asspull. Something that could've been better was Goku, Vegeta and Gohan saying that they didn't know/realize that Super Saiyan 2 can be mastered, but that didn't happen.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

You seem to be thinking of this entirely from an in-universe perspective, that's not a realistic or useful approach for explaining anything.

Indeed I am, purposely. I know that the obviously answer out-universe would be "Toriyama didn't think of it yet". But that's not an excuse for the in-universe, as I said, from the in-universe perspective, what Trunks showed in the manga, the way and context, makes it an asspull. Something that could be better was Goku, Vegeta and Gohan saying that they didn't know/realize that Super Saiyan 2 can be mastered, but that didn't happen.

That's a bizarre criteria. They didn't need to say anything, it was obvious. Also, there's no reason that it couldn't be mastered, it's plausible, even. Outside of your unusual, strict criteria, it's not an asspull by any means.

[LightBing]

If Super Saiyan 2 can be mastered, shouldn't they have figure it out in the timeskip? Like they found out about Super Saiyan Second Grade and Super Saiyan Third Grade.

If Super Saiyan could be mastered and even surpassed, why didn't Goku and Vegeta strived for it before the Androids? It's the exact same thing.

If you really want an in-universe explanation, the characters weren't pushed to master SSJ2 because they didn't have a threat to force them to grow(Boo happened in a day or two), like is the common trend in the story. Goku got SSJ3 which I can make the parallel of being like Super Saiyan Grade 3 but didn't have the time to go the master SSJ2 way or any other reasons.

After Boo, well they just couldn't do it or didn't want to. Maybe Vegeta's Mutated SSJ2 is a side effect of his own attempt. Goku might have decided to rely on SSJ3 and/or been blinded by it's power.
Trunks was facing the threat of Black forcing him to grow. Like I said before, the characters have extraordinary breakthroughs when they are forced into a corner.

Even Vegeta being the genius he is didn't think of mastering Super Saiyan. I wonder, if Goku didn't think of it everyone would still be going around using Super Saiyan Grade 2. The story makes it clear such a feat isn't as simple as snapping their fingers.
Is it really an asspull to hold mastering SSJ2 to the same high standard, probably even higher since it should be even harder.

[Grimlock]

They didn't need to say anything, it was obvious. Also, there's no reason that it couldn't be mastered, it's plausible, even. Outside of your unusual, strict criteria, it's not an asspull by any means.

Not quite "obvious", aren't Goku and Vegeta genius of fighting? They should know if a form can or not be mastered after having it for years.

Okay, let's start from the point that Super Saiyan 2 can be mastered and such, how can powering up the Super Saiyan 2 take him to a level that surpasses post-Universe 6 saga and post-some trainings with Whis Super Saiyan 3 Goku? Obviously his Super Saiyan 3 now is way much stronger than his Super Saiyan 3 from Buu saga. Does mastering Super Saiyan 2 give that much boost in power?

If Super Saiyan could be mastered and even surpassed, why didn't Goku and Vegeta strived for it before the Androids?

Because Vegeta had just achieved it and Goku was training with Gohan and Piccolo in base form, as far as I can remember. Don't remember if it's a filler scene too.

the characters weren't pushed to master SSJ2 because they didn't have a threat to force them to grow(Boo happened in a day or two), like is the common trend in the story. Goku got SSJ3 which I can make the parallel of being like Super Saiyan Grade 3 but didn't have the time to go the master SSJ2 way or any other reasons.

You should know that for Goku, it doesn't require to have a threat for him to be hungry for more power. Also, do you really believe that in the Other World doesn't have powerful fighters to make Goku excited and wanting to get stronger? As for Vegeta, he trained during the seven years because knew Goku would be training, he probably achieved Super Saiyan 2 not too long before the beginning of Buu saga to realize that Super Saiyan 2 can be mastered, but Goku had plenty of time, or better saying, he had an eternity.

[GodVegetto91]

I believe it was clearly stated that the universe survival arc would start in this months manga chapter.. so i don't know where all your doubts come from? They could easily cramp it all up in 1 chapter. Have the first half be about the ending of the Zamasu arc. And the second half the start of the universe survival arc.

[RedShift]

There has been no proof, hinting, nor mention that any character has 'mastered' anything beyond the base Super Saiyan. Mastery of the base Super Saiyan form was a significant plot point of an entire arc of Dragonball Z. At no point since has anyone said; "Hey, lets repeat that process with Super Saiyan 2." At no point in the series has Goku thought to himself "Hey, I've only used Super Saiyan 3 a handful of times ever. Maybe if I train with it for a while I can mitigate it's Ki guzzling effects."

Unless someone coughs up some concrete evidence that proves without a shadow of a doubt (or differing interpretation) that characters have taken SS2/SS3 as far as it possibly can go and there is nowhere left to improve, stuff your personal headcannon in a box and keep it there. Watching people argue over who they think has 'mastered' higher transformations when there's no evidence suggesting anything of the sort is nauseating.