"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

IF the motivations are the same as what was revealed in the anime which is that Zamasu just wanted a strong mortal body and Goku basically was it due to being specifically told about Goku from kaioshin.

I already told you why this doesn't make sense. The anime's motivations don't work because Zamasu had a personal reason in the anime to steal Goku's body. Zamasu in the manga doesn't, so stealing his body instead of someone stronger just comes off, at best, as arbitrary and, at worst, as moronic and story-breaking.

A comic/TV series and everything done in an episodic format can't be criticized for things that can be explored later on.

So, we shouldn't be allowed to criticize Trunks' new form because it can still be explained at some point? This isn't how it works, either. You have appropriate times to explain your plot points. The appropriate time to explain Trunks' transformation already passed. Likewise, I think that Toyotaro has already squandered the opportunity to better explore Zamasu's motives.

You can't say a comic is bad if one issue is, you can't say a whole manga is bad based on one chapter, or a whole series is bad based on one episode.

But I didn't say this. I said that, if the implications I'm pointing out are true, then the premise becomes flawed. That's it, I'm not calling the manga bad (well, it is bad, but not because of this one point).

Viewers are allowed to judge a story without having the full information because it's the story's job to keep the reader/viewer engaged. Again, just be able to man up and admit you were wrong if your criticisms fail to hold any weight once the story is finished. People (deservedly) criticize the anime week-to-week without waiting for the arc to finish to comment on its plot points and the ramifications they may have, the manga isn't exempt from this.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

He had an obsession with mortals, and Goku has the strongest mortal body.

That's extremely debatable considering he's Vegeta's equal, we've never seen Hit's full power and the twelve universes are full of powerful fighters that we'll meet next arc. Him having a hatred of mortals doesn't justify him stealing a mortal body, if he wants to eradicate them and prove the superiority of the Gods, then he should have stolen a God's body. It's not like he holds any respect towards them anyway, considering he killed them.

We're also not sure Zamasu can swap bodies with Beerus or Whis, but he's not familiar with them in any of the material anyway.

The Super DBs are said to grant any wish and we know they can affect Gods since they affected Zamasu.

Yes he did, Black said he came to Trunks' timeline to escape Beerus.

In the anime they specifically say they wanted to use a mortal body when he explains the zero mortals plan. If that thinking is still the same in the manga, which we don't know yet, then it makes sense to take the strongest mortals body. Why would he steal Vegeta's body when Kaioshin specifically mentioned Goku and Zamasu specifically looked up Goku? We have no idea if he watched any footage of Vegeta for comparison and even if he did Vegeta wasn't the one who defeated Buu and caught Zamasu's attention initially anyway. In fact this makes even more sense in the manga because we know that Goku's strength already surpassed Hit where in the anime Hit is around as strong as SSB X KK X 10 which should have made Hit the one Zamasu stole the body from if he was strictly looking for the most powerful mortal.

You're overlooking the fact Zamasu fought Goku in the anime and lost and which pretty much sealed his decision to takeover Goku. Him watching the U6 fight further enhanced this decision because a) Goku didn't even come close to using his full power thus further humiliating a fighter prodigy Kioshin. b) Goku a mere mortal was cloaking himself in God ki.
This was the motivation to use a mortal's body and specifically Goku's.

The Manga just hasn't fleshed the villains well at all. If they use the we wanted a mortal's body to carry out the Zero Mortal Plans it doesn't work in the Manga because there is no history between Zamasu and Goku like the anime, the motivation for using a mortals body is missing. Bottom line is having Goku and Zamasu fight was key and not having this to stop a "time paradox" unfortunately doing more harm than good. In the anime at least he got to experience Goku, he got humiliated that adds believablity to his actions, I can understand everything he did thereon in.

[Draconic]

A comic/TV series and everything done in an episodic format can't be criticized for things that can be explored later on.

So, we shouldn't be allowed to criticize Trunks' new form because it can still be explained at some point? This isn't how it works, either. You have appropriate times to explain your plot points. The appropriate time to explain Trunks' transformation already passed. Likewise, I think that Toyotaro has already squandered the opportunity to better explore Zamasu's motives

The story arc is done. The ending has been reached. Whatever comes next classifies as "sequel" territory, so yes, you can criticize all the Trunks ass-pulls because within the context of the story it was presented in they are not explained. All the details of the plot are laid bare and ready to be discussed.

I see your point about the story needing to keep people engaged, but the story is not just the plot. It's the full package. A lack of explanations for this thing, or some weird pacing choices are not the only things that make a story engaging. For example, if the reader/viewer feels and resonates with one character and wants to see his story unfold, even if another character has questionable development, the story still does it's job in keeping said viewer/reader hooked. This gives the writer(s) the opportunity to not have to do everything they can with a plot point or a character in the first half of the story, allowing for a more dynamic story, always having the chance to introduce something new or spin everything on it's head later on.

Of course, pointing out when something seems questionable to you is fine, but making a judgement and then having to later admit you were wrong is not really how you criticize something. The judgement is done when all the details have been put on under the lense. It's why you don't see critics rating a movie when they get a 20 minute preview, or rate a 13 episode TV show when they get like 3 in advance.

I guess my argument doesn't fully stand up when talking about the Super Manga, since we know how everything will eventually turn up and from the choices made by now, you can make a pretty good assessment about how most things are going to play out, but what I'm talking about is on a general level, where having two versions of the same story with minor differences is not the norm.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Okay, here's all the plot holes this creates, tell me if I missed any:
1: Why didn't Goku and Vegeta just become Vegetto to fight Beerus? As we've just seen SSBlue isn't even close to Super Vegetto, let alone SSJ3 Vegetto. SSJ3 Vegetto would be at least 10x stronger than SSGod Goku and easily able to wreck Beerus.

2: If Vegeta was going to lose 90% of his power from going Blue, he should have gone SSJ2 instead. These past few chapters show that his SSJ2 is far above Goku's SSJ3 as SSJ2 Vegeta > Black > SSJ2 Trunks ~ SSJ3 Goku, so even if you nerf SSJ3 and make it only a 200x multiplier, SSJ2 Vegeta would be 250x at least, 50% of SSBlue. With that much power he'd even be able to break Hit's timeskip like SSGod Goku.

3: What the heck is going on with Black? I thought that maybe his total power was Zamasu + Goku and that's why transforming didn't give him much of a boost since only the Goku side would get powered up, but clearly he just got a massive boost from going SSJ whereas earlier his power barely increased.

What? I mean point one. Where did you get all that from? There was nothing about Vegetto in here. About not fusing against Beerus, Kaioshins weren't there and Beerus was encouraging them to achieve the SSG form, so they summoned Shenron to ask about it. Finally, they ended the fight as friends, more or less.

I think it's worng Black SS1/2 can beat SSB Vegeta, even after the boost. It would have made much more sense if he did it after turning SSR. But don't burn with the multipliers, they may have appeared in a guidebook or whatever, but they were never so specific in the manga, neither the anime.

In the Hit fight SSJ Goku was stronger than Hit.

You have proven absolutely nothing, but an obsession to make stuff up and then blame the manga for not sticking to your power level logic.

What the heck was it nerfed from?

1: This was already proven back in the U6 arc when SSJ Goku was stronger than Hit, this makes him at least equal to 10% of SSBlue Vegeta who was unable to break Hit's timeskip, so at best he's only slightly more powerful than Hit like SSJ Goku, but there's even more proof now with SSJ1/2 Black beating the shit out of SSBlue Vegeta, Black's base is incredibly powerful, but the power of his transformations are normalized as in the anime he was already God level in base, but SSRose only put him slightly above SSBlue, he likely has the same nerfed transformations in the manga which led to him being destroyed by SSJ2 Vegeta despite transforming pre-Zenkai. Also, this theory that he jobbed intentionally is bunk since he was clearly getting pissed off and was lucky to escape with his life. He would have died right there if Zamasu didn't save him.

And Vegetto is SSJ3 level in base according to the Daizenshuu but even if you ignore that he has to be at least SSJ2 level in base as he was able to completely thrash Buuhan using only SSJ1 and Buuhan was Super Buu + Ultimate Gohan, both of whom are far above SSJ3 Goku, even if you're extremely conservative Buuhan is at minimum ~4-6x SSJ3 Goku and that's with heavy lowballing.

2: SSJ2 Vegeta is far stronger than SSJ3 Goku, I don't know how anyone can even deny this, SSJ2 Trunks was the same as SSJ3 Goku and was fodder to Base Black, however SSJ2 Vegeta was beating the shit out of Black which places him far above Goku and Trunks.

Check out pages 11 & 12, they show that SSJ Goku > Hit. On page 11 Champa says the fight isn't going anywhere, but Vados reassures him that Hit doesn't use stamina to timeskip, but Goku needs to use a lot of energy to keep up, this shows that even with the advantage of the timeskip Hit has to rely on stamina to beat Goku.

On page 12 Beerus says Goku is supposed to be stronger than Hit and that timeskip is cheating, this shows that in raw power Goku is stronger than Hit.
https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/chapters ... er-13/4986

This is supported by TheDevilsCorpse's translation as well which states SSJ Goku > Hit in raw power: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30467&p=1105402#p1105402

[DBZ Macky]

I am starting to think that Toriyama wrote in his outline something like "Include a line about percentages, specifically 10%, so that the whole power scale is fucked and these fucking weaboos stop making their shitty lists about battle powers, a plot device that I dropped decades ago".

[TheUltimateNinja]

I am starting to think that Toriyama wrote in his outline something like "Include a line about percentages, specifically 10%, so that the whole power scale is fucked and these fucking weaboos stop making their shitty lists about battle powers, a plot device that I dropped decades ago".

But now nothing makes sense anymore and we have no idea how strong these guys are supposed to be. SSBlue is only 10x SSJ while at the same time being stronger than Super Vegetto? Makes no sense unless Vegetto is only 9x stronger than Goku & Vegeta.

[MyNiggaGoku]

I am starting to think that Toriyama wrote in his outline something like "Include a line about percentages, specifically 10%, so that the whole power scale is fucked and these fucking weaboos stop making their shitty lists about battle powers, a plot device that I dropped decades ago".

But now nothing makes sense anymore and we have no idea how strong these guys are supposed to be. SSBlue is only 10x SSJ while at the same time being stronger than Super Vegetto? Makes no sense unless Vegetto is only 9x stronger than Goku & Vegeta.

Can't you just accept that the power scaling is not to be taken seriously anymore?Until mid DBZ you can power scale very easily but Boo arc onwards and the power levels(ugh god I hate that term) are out of control.And guess what...Toriyama doesn't care,Toyotaro doesn't care & Toei doesn't care.And you shouldn't also.Just enjoy the show,be it in anime or manga form.And I am not saying this only for you personally...I am saying it for everyone who thinks that the power scaling must be logical or otherwise the show is ruined.

[DBZ Macky]

At this point, justifying the power scale is pretty hard.
Two options:
1. Give up.
2. Two base theory.

Can't you just accept that the power scaling is not to be taken seriously anymore?Until mid DBZ you can power scale very easily but Boo arc onwards and the power levels(ugh god I hate that term) are out of control.And guess what...Toriyama doesn't care,Toyotaro doesn't care & Toei doesn't care.And you shouldn't also.Just enjoy the show,be it in anime or manga form.And I am not saying this only for you personally...I am saying it for everyone who thinks that the power scaling must be logical or otherwise the show is ruined.

Toyotarou at the very least does care, or at least used to. He's gone out of his way to give battle power numbers for his work prior to DBS. For example, Dragon Ball Zero.

Strength and power scaling have always been pretty important in a story like Dragon Ball where the main focus is fighting. Sure, the author isn't sitting with a calculator in his hand while he's writing, but it's reasonable to expect some kind of consistency.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Two options:
1. Give up.
2. Two base theory.

Two base theory in the manga? There's no indication that such a thing exists in the manga. There's some hints in the anime like them learning to condense their ki into God ki in base, but that's not solid proof either, though I guess you could make it work. No such thing in the manga.

Can't you just accept that the power scaling is not to be taken seriously anymore?Until mid DBZ you can power scale very easily but Boo arc onwards and the power levels(ugh god I hate that term) are out of control.And guess what...Toriyama doesn't care,Toyotaro doesn't care & Toei doesn't care.And you shouldn't also.Just enjoy the show,be it in anime or manga form.And I am not saying this only for you personally...I am saying it for everyone who thinks that the power scaling must be logical or otherwise the show is ruined.

Actually even in the Buu Arc power levels still made sense. We know SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Buutenks > Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu > SSJ2 Vegeta, simple enough. Sure, there's arguments about whether SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku or Base Gotenks (Post) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre), but we know all the important details like who's stronger than who at maximum. In Super nothing makes sense at all. There's no explanation given for why SSJ2 Vegeta is so much stronger than SSJ3 Goku, the only possibility is that he still has that mutated SSJ2 he used against Beerus.

[Basako]

Okay, here's all the plot holes this creates, tell me if I missed any:
1: Why didn't Goku and Vegeta just become Vegetto to fight Beerus? As we've just seen SSBlue isn't even close to Super Vegetto, let alone SSJ3 Vegetto. SSJ3 Vegetto would be at least 10x stronger than SSGod Goku and easily able to wreck Beerus.

2: If Vegeta was going to lose 90% of his power from going Blue, he should have gone SSJ2 instead. These past few chapters show that his SSJ2 is far above Goku's SSJ3 as SSJ2 Vegeta > Black > SSJ2 Trunks ~ SSJ3 Goku, so even if you nerf SSJ3 and make it only a 200x multiplier, SSJ2 Vegeta would be 250x at least, 50% of SSBlue. With that much power he'd even be able to break Hit's timeskip like SSGod Goku.

3: What the heck is going on with Black? I thought that maybe his total power was Zamasu + Goku and that's why transforming didn't give him much of a boost since only the Goku side would get powered up, but clearly he just got a massive boost from going SSJ whereas earlier his power barely increased.

What? I mean point one. Where did you get all that from? There was nothing about Vegetto in here. About not fusing against Beerus, Kaioshins weren't there and Beerus was encouraging them to achieve the SSG form, so they summoned Shenron to ask about it. Finally, they ended the fight as friends, more or less.

I think it's worng Black SS1/2 can beat SSB Vegeta, even after the boost. It would have made much more sense if he did it after turning SSR. But don't burn with the multipliers, they may have appeared in a guidebook or whatever, but they were never so specific in the manga, neither the anime.

In the Hit fight SSJ Goku was stronger than Hit.

No, he wasn't. And what does this have to do with anything?

[Basako]

Actually even in the Buu Arc power levels still made sense. We know SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Buutenks > Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu > SSJ2 Vegeta, simple enough. Sure, there's arguments about whether SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku or Base Gotenks (Post) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre), but we know all the important details like who's stronger than who at maximum. In Super nothing makes sense at all. There's no explanation given for why SSJ2 Vegeta is so much stronger than SSJ3 Goku, the only possibility is that he still has that mutated SSJ2 he used against Beerus.

You made it easy. So where do you put SS Gotenks, you left it out on purpose because, oops, it may go over Vegeta SS2. Oh, it doesn't make sense, ahhh, ohhh!! Garbage!!!!

That Vegeta's rage boost against Beerus in SS2 was temporary was a fan made theory, by now proven wrong. Get over it, he is stronger than SS3 Goku, yes.

[MyNiggaGoku]

Can't you just accept that the power scaling is not to be taken seriously anymore?Until mid DBZ you can power scale very easily but Boo arc onwards and the power levels(ugh god I hate that term) are out of control.And guess what...Toriyama doesn't care,Toyotaro doesn't care & Toei doesn't care.And you shouldn't also.Just enjoy the show,be it in anime or manga form.And I am not saying this only for you personally...I am saying it for everyone who thinks that the power scaling must be logical or otherwise the show is ruined.

Toyotarou at the very least does care, or at least used to. He's gone out of his way to give battle power numbers for his work prior to DBS. For example, Dragon Ball Zero.

Strength and power scaling have always been pretty important in a story like Dragon Ball where the main focus is fighting. Sure, the author isn't sitting with a calculator in his hand while he's writing, but it's reasonable to expect some kind of consistency.[/quote]
Yes I agree with you but if you try to make sense out of the current power scaling you just won't.I would love it if the powerscaling was more logical but unfortunately that's not the case.So I will try enjoying the show by appreciating what I have and by not complaining about what I don't have.

Can't you just accept that the power scaling is not to be taken seriously anymore?Until mid DBZ you can power scale very easily but Boo arc onwards and the power levels(ugh god I hate that term) are out of control.And guess what...Toriyama doesn't care,Toyotaro doesn't care & Toei doesn't care.And you shouldn't also.Just enjoy the show,be it in anime or manga form.And I am not saying this only for you personally...I am saying it for everyone who thinks that the power scaling must be logical or otherwise the show is ruined.

Actually even in the Buu Arc power levels still made sense. We know SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Buutenks > Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu > SSJ2 Vegeta, simple enough. Sure, there's arguments about whether SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku or Base Gotenks (Post) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre), but we know all the important details like who's stronger than who at maximum. In Super nothing makes sense at all. There's no explanation given for why SSJ2 Vegeta is so much stronger than SSJ3 Goku, the only possibility is that he still has that mutated SSJ2 he used against Beerus.[/quote]
I can see that you understand how illogical the current power scaling is.That's why I am telling you there's no point in finding any logic in it.Sure there are parts that make sense but there are some which just don't.Don't confuse yourself with such things...I know it can be very infuriating that the show you love makes a mockery out of itself by not having logical power scaling in itself but just take what you're given.

[TheMikado]

That's extremely debatable considering he's Vegeta's equal, we've never seen Hit's full power and the twelve universes are full of powerful fighters that we'll meet next arc. Him having a hatred of mortals doesn't justify him stealing a mortal body, if he wants to eradicate them and prove the superiority of the Gods, then he should have stolen a God's body. It's not like he holds any respect towards them anyway, considering he killed them.



The Super DBs are said to grant any wish and we know they can affect Gods since they affected Zamasu.

Yes he did, Black said he came to Trunks' timeline to escape Beerus.

In the anime they specifically say they wanted to use a mortal body when he explains the zero mortals plan. If that thinking is still the same in the manga, which we don't know yet, then it makes sense to take the strongest mortals body. Why would he steal Vegeta's body when Kaioshin specifically mentioned Goku and Zamasu specifically looked up Goku? We have no idea if he watched any footage of Vegeta for comparison and even if he did Vegeta wasn't the one who defeated Buu and caught Zamasu's attention initially anyway. In fact this makes even more sense in the manga because we know that Goku's strength already surpassed Hit where in the anime Hit is around as strong as SSB X KK X 10 which should have made Hit the one Zamasu stole the body from if he was strictly looking for the most powerful mortal.

You're overlooking the fact Zamasu fought Goku in the anime and lost and which pretty much sealed his decision to takeover Goku. Him watching the U6 fight further enhanced this decision because a) Goku didn't even come close to using his full power thus further humiliating a fighter prodigy Kioshin. b) Goku a mere mortal was cloaking himself in God ki.
This was the motivation to use a mortal's body and specifically Goku's.

The Manga just hasn't fleshed the villains well at all. If they use the we wanted a mortal's body to carry out the Zero Mortal Plans it doesn't work in the Manga because there is no history between Zamasu and Goku like the anime, the motivation for using a mortals body is missing. Bottom line is having Goku and Zamasu fight was key and not having this to stop a "time paradox" unfortunately doing more harm than good. In the anime at least he got to experience Goku, he got humiliated that adds believablity to his actions, I can understand everything he did thereon in.

If Zamasus fight Goku was so key to his character I would think it would be in the Toriyamas original outline and this part of BOTH storylines. Just saying. So far the only consistent thing between the two as far as motivation is that Zamasu hates mortals, not that he has to fight Goku or even has a specific hatred for him. It's possible that idea may have been a Toei invention and not part of the original outline.

[DBZ Macky]

Really? I don't think there was half as much inflation and confusion in the Boo and Freeza arcs combined than a single major arc of Super.

P.S. May I suggest we take this discussion to the power levels thread?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Two options:
1. Give up.
2. Two base theory.

Two base theory in the manga? There's no indication that such a thing exists in the manga. There's some hints in the anime like them learning to condense their ki into God ki in base, but that's not solid proof either, though I guess you could make it work. No such thing in the manga.

Can't you just accept that the power scaling is not to be taken seriously anymore?Until mid DBZ you can power scale very easily but Boo arc onwards and the power levels(ugh god I hate that term) are out of control.And guess what...Toriyama doesn't care,Toyotaro doesn't care & Toei doesn't care.And you shouldn't also.Just enjoy the show,be it in anime or manga form.And I am not saying this only for you personally...I am saying it for everyone who thinks that the power scaling must be logical or otherwise the show is ruined.

Actually even in the Buu Arc power levels still made sense. We know SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Buutenks > Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu > SSJ2 Vegeta, simple enough. Sure, there's arguments about whether SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku or Base Gotenks (Post) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre), but we know all the important details like who's stronger than who at maximum. In Super nothing makes sense at all. There's no explanation given for why SSJ2 Vegeta is so much stronger than SSJ3 Goku, the only possibility is that he still has that mutated SSJ2 he used against Beerus.

You made it easy. So where do you put SS Gotenks, you left it out on purpose because, oops, it may go over Vegeta SS2. Oh, it doesn't make sense, ahhh, ohhh!! Garbage!!!!

That Vegeta's rage boost against Beerus in SS2 was temporary was a fan made theory, by now proven wrong. Get over it, he is stronger than SS3 Goku, yes.

Did you even read my post? I clearly said in the 2nd sentence that there's arguments about Gotenks' power level that cannot be clearly answered, but we know the important details like who's the strongest when they're at their best. And even Base Gotenks may be stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, we have no clue what his true power level is.

Also, SSJ2 and SSJ3 have clearly defined multipliers and SSJ3 is far above SSJ2. Trunks did some training to power up his SSJ2 to SSJ3 level, but Vegeta never did such a thing, and even if he did he'd only be equal to SSJ3 Goku, not far stronger. What explanation is there other than Vegeta using a special SSJ2?

No, he wasn't. And what does this have to do with anything?

He was clearly stronger, read the second part of my post for proof. Beerus outright says that Goku is stronger than Hit. And it matters because it shows that SSBlue is only 10x SSJ.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

In the anime they specifically say they wanted to use a mortal body when he explains the zero mortals plan. If that thinking is still the same in the manga, which we don't know yet, then it makes sense to take the strongest mortals body. Why would he steal Vegeta's body when Kaioshin specifically mentioned Goku and Zamasu specifically looked up Goku? We have no idea if he watched any footage of Vegeta for comparison and even if he did Vegeta wasn't the one who defeated Buu and caught Zamasu's attention initially anyway. In fact this makes even more sense in the manga because we know that Goku's strength already surpassed Hit where in the anime Hit is around as strong as SSB X KK X 10 which should have made Hit the one Zamasu stole the body from if he was strictly looking for the most powerful mortal.

You're overlooking the fact Zamasu fought Goku in the anime and lost and which pretty much sealed his decision to takeover Goku. Him watching the U6 fight further enhanced this decision because a) Goku didn't even come close to using his full power thus further humiliating a fighter prodigy Kioshin. b) Goku a mere mortal was cloaking himself in God ki.
This was the motivation to use a mortal's body and specifically Goku's.

The Manga just hasn't fleshed the villains well at all. If they use the we wanted a mortal's body to carry out the Zero Mortal Plans it doesn't work in the Manga because there is no history between Zamasu and Goku like the anime, the motivation for using a mortals body is missing. Bottom line is having Goku and Zamasu fight was key and not having this to stop a "time paradox" unfortunately doing more harm than good. In the anime at least he got to experience Goku, he got humiliated that adds believablity to his actions, I can understand everything he did thereon in.

If Zamasus fight Goku was so key to his character I would think it would be in the Toriyamas original outline and this part of BOTH storylines. Just saying. So far the only consistent thing between the two as far as motivation is that Zamasu hates mortals, not that he has to fight Goku or even has a specific hatred for him. It's possible that idea may have been a Toei invention and not part of the original outline.

Regardless of whether it was in the outline or not, it gave an actual motivation and believablity to Zamasu's actions to want to takeover Goku's body. If this was purely Toei then that may have been one of the best choices they made, but I think you're right we should wait for the entire arc to finish before making comparisons etc now we know Toyo won't be rushed maybe he'll explore these things later? This latest chapter was the best of his arc so I'm feeling a bit better it.

[Basako]

Two base theory in the manga? There's no indication that such a thing exists in the manga. There's some hints in the anime like them learning to condense their ki into God ki in base, but that's not solid proof either, though I guess you could make it work. No such thing in the manga.


Actually even in the Buu Arc power levels still made sense. We know SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Buutenks > Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu > SSJ2 Vegeta, simple enough. Sure, there's arguments about whether SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku or Base Gotenks (Post) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre), but we know all the important details like who's stronger than who at maximum. In Super nothing makes sense at all. There's no explanation given for why SSJ2 Vegeta is so much stronger than SSJ3 Goku, the only possibility is that he still has that mutated SSJ2 he used against Beerus.

You made it easy. So where do you put SS Gotenks, you left it out on purpose because, oops, it may go over Vegeta SS2. Oh, it doesn't make sense, ahhh, ohhh!! Garbage!!!!

That Vegeta's rage boost against Beerus in SS2 was temporary was a fan made theory, by now proven wrong. Get over it, he is stronger than SS3 Goku, yes.

Did you even read my post? I clearly said in the 2nd sentence that there's arguments about Gotenks' power level that cannot be clearly answered, but we know the important details like who's the strongest when they're at their best. And even Base Gotenks may be stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta, we have no clue what his true power level is.

Also, SSJ2 and SSJ3 have clearly defined multipliers and SSJ3 is far above SSJ2. Trunks did some training to power up his SSJ2 to SSJ3 level, but Vegeta never did such a thing, and even if he did he'd only be equal to SSJ3 Goku, not far stronger. What explanation is there other than Vegeta using a special SSJ2?

No, he wasn't. And what does this have to do with anything?

He was clearly stronger, read the second part of my post for proof. Beerus outright says that Goku is stronger than Hit. And it matters because it shows that SSBlue is only 10x SSJ.

About the multiplyers, some of you take the numbers and multiply so tightly, as far as we know, Toriyama didn't establish them and he never took them into consideration like that. Obviously, transforming multiply the strenght of base, but it doesn't have to be something like x50 of SS for everyone always, because we don't even know if that's how Toriyama makes it. I think it makes more sense that multipliers could change and even there are other factors, like stamina, speed (we saw this with the USS), body shape and muscles, the draining. You want everything to fit exactly the x50, x200, x400 and whatever numbers somebody spit someday, and if doesn't, you say is wrong. No, Toriyama and Toyotaro may not be considering this numbers at all, nothing in the manga and the anime have ever showed this, neither any of their words.

SS Goku is not stronger than Hit at all, he even had to go SSB to beat him. You twist everything, I don't see why you come with this now. Where did this come from?

I'm going to analize and probably rant the power scale of the last two numbers of the manga as soon as I read the translations. But you are coming with things that have nothing to do with that.

And I did read your comment, you put the SS Gotenks above SS2 Vegeta in hand, that's why I said you made it easy.

[TheUltimateNinja]

SS Goku is not stronger than Hit at all, he even had to go SSB to beat him. You twist everything, I don't see why you come with this now. Where did this come from?

I'm going to analize and probably rant the power scale of the last two numbers of the manga as soon as I read the translations. But you are coming with things that have nothing to do with that.

And I did read your comment, you put the SS Gotenks above SS2 Vegeta in hand, that's why I said you made it easy.

He needed SSBlue to beat Hit's maximum power level which he could sustain for less than 1 minute, but he was stronger than Hit's normal level as SSJ. He needed to transform because he was using up too much stamina keeping up with Hit's timeskip.

Anyway, SSJ Gotenks is obviously stronger than Vegeta since Goku said he'd be able to fight Fat Buu whereas Vegeta got completely destroyed.

[LightBing]

TheUltimateNinja you're working on the misconception that SSJ Goku is equal or stronger than 10% Blue. I'll try to find a post I made about it and repost it in the power level thread, answer there if you want to do it.

[Basako]

SS Goku is not stronger than Hit at all, he even had to go SSB to beat him. You twist everything, I don't see why you come with this now. Where did this come from?

I'm going to analize and probably rant the power scale of the last two numbers of the manga as soon as I read the translations. But you are coming with things that have nothing to do with that.

And I did read your comment, you put the SS Gotenks above SS2 Vegeta in hand, that's why I said you made it easy.

He needed SSBlue to beat Hit's maximum power level which he could sustain for less than 1 minute, but he was stronger than Hit's normal level as SSJ. He needed to transform because he was using up too much stamina keeping up with Hit's timeskip.

Anyway, SSJ Gotenks is obviously stronger than Vegeta since Goku said he'd be able to fight Fat Buu whereas Vegeta got completely destroyed.

Goku used the SSG form most of the time against Hit, he used the SS for a bit first, but that he was stronger like that is just an erroneous assumption that you make. He wasn't.

Yeah, SS Gotenks was stronger than SS2 Vegeta at that time, at least we agree on that.