"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

SS Goku is not stronger than Hit at all, he even had to go SSB to beat him. You twist everything, I don't see why you come with this now. Where did this come from?

I'm going to analize and probably rant the power scale of the last two numbers of the manga as soon as I read the translations. But you are coming with things that have nothing to do with that.

And I did read your comment, you put the SS Gotenks above SS2 Vegeta in hand, that's why I said you made it easy.

He needed SSBlue to beat Hit's maximum power level which he could sustain for less than 1 minute, but he was stronger than Hit's normal level as SSJ. He needed to transform because he was using up too much stamina keeping up with Hit's timeskip.

Anyway, SSJ Gotenks is obviously stronger than Vegeta since Goku said he'd be able to fight Fat Buu whereas Vegeta got completely destroyed.

Goku used the SSG form most of the time against Hit, he used the SS for a bit first, but that he was stronger like that is just an erroneous assumption that you make. He wasn't.

Yeah, SS Gotenks was stronger than SS2 Vegeta at that time, at least we agree on that.

It's stated by Beerus in all translations that SSJ Goku is stronger, though:
TheDevilsCorpse: "Shit! Goku's stronger in terms of power! How dare he use such a dirty trick like that 'Time-Skip'!"
Viz: "Dammit, Goku's power is supposed to be stronger than his! The heck is time skipping anyway?"
Mangastream: "God damn it! Goku has him totally beat in power! Screw that "Time leap", he's only got the upper hand because he's resorting to cheap tricks."

[Basako]

He needed SSBlue to beat Hit's maximum power level which he could sustain for less than 1 minute, but he was stronger than Hit's normal level as SSJ. He needed to transform because he was using up too much stamina keeping up with Hit's timeskip.

Anyway, SSJ Gotenks is obviously stronger than Vegeta since Goku said he'd be able to fight Fat Buu whereas Vegeta got completely destroyed.

Goku used the SSG form most of the time against Hit, he used the SS for a bit first, but that he was stronger like that is just an erroneous assumption that you make. He wasn't.

Yeah, SS Gotenks was stronger than SS2 Vegeta at that time, at least we agree on that.

It's stated by Beerus in all translations that SSJ Goku is stronger, though:
TheDevilsCorpse: "Shit! Goku's stronger in terms of power! How dare he use such a dirty trick like that 'Time-Skip'!"
Viz: "Dammit, Goku's power is supposed to be stronger than his! The heck is time skipping anyway?"
Mangastream: "God damn it! Goku has him totally beat in power! Screw that "Time leap", he's only got the upper hand because he's resorting to cheap tricks."

Trunks USS was stronger than perfect Cell too, but that didn't make him stronger in the end. When I say stronger, I also mean able to defeat, which SS Goku wasn't. He had to go SSG and then SSB.

But you want to take statements literally, what about those:

Whis: Goku has not only closed the power gap that existed between the two, but has now surpassed the previous power differential between he and Hit. A unique ability such as this (Hit's time skip) only works at maximum efficiency on those equal to or lesser than the users own power level.

Beerus: So why wasn't Vegeta able to overcome Hit in his blue form?

Whis: When he went blue during his fight, he wasn't able to exert even 1/10 of his usual strength. Blue isn't a transformation that can be done over and over again in succession. The amoung of stamina it consumes makes it a detriment in that regards.

Beerus: So the sort of it is, Goku's god form is stronger than Vegeta's blue was back then and it now SURPASSED Hit's current power level. I leave anythng out?

Whis: That about sums it up.

So Hit's time skip works for equal of lesser opponents and then they clearly state that Goku surpassed Hit using the SSG form.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Goku used the SSG form most of the time against Hit, he used the SS for a bit first, but that he was stronger like that is just an erroneous assumption that you make. He wasn't.

Yeah, SS Gotenks was stronger than SS2 Vegeta at that time, at least we agree on that.

It's stated by Beerus in all translations that SSJ Goku is stronger, though:
TheDevilsCorpse: "Shit! Goku's stronger in terms of power! How dare he use such a dirty trick like that 'Time-Skip'!"
Viz: "Dammit, Goku's power is supposed to be stronger than his! The heck is time skipping anyway?"
Mangastream: "God damn it! Goku has him totally beat in power! Screw that "Time leap", he's only got the upper hand because he's resorting to cheap tricks."

Trunks USS was stronger than perfect Cell too, but that didn't make him stronger in the end. When I say stronger, I also mean able to defeat, which SS Goku wasn't. He had to go SSG and then SSB.

But you want to take statements literally, what about those:

Whis: Goku has not only closed the power gap that existed between the two, but has now surpassed the previous power differential between he and Hit. A unique ability such as this (Hit's time skip) only works at maximum efficiency on those equal to or lesser than the users own power level.

Beerus: So why wasn't Vegeta able to overcome Hit in his blue form?

Whis: When he went blue during his fight, he wasn't able to exert even 1/10 of his usual strength. Blue isn't a transformation that can be done over and over again in succession. The amoung of stamina it consumes makes it a detriment in that regards.

Beerus: So the sort of it is, Goku's god form is stronger than Vegeta's blue was back then and it now SURPASSED Hit's current power level. I leave anythng out?

Whis: That about sums it up.

So Hit's time skip works for equal of lesser opponents and then they clearly state that Goku surpassed Hit using the SSG form.

The Viz translation is:
Whis: Goku's power has become far superior to that of Hit's, that's what's happening here. Hit's skills are only effective on those who are near or below his level.

So they don't have to be below him, his ability will work as long as they're not considerably above him.

[Basako]

It's stated by Beerus in all translations that SSJ Goku is stronger, though:
TheDevilsCorpse: "Shit! Goku's stronger in terms of power! How dare he use such a dirty trick like that 'Time-Skip'!"
Viz: "Dammit, Goku's power is supposed to be stronger than his! The heck is time skipping anyway?"
Mangastream: "God damn it! Goku has him totally beat in power! Screw that "Time leap", he's only got the upper hand because he's resorting to cheap tricks."

Trunks USS was stronger than perfect Cell too, but that didn't make him stronger in the end. When I say stronger, I also mean able to defeat, which SS Goku wasn't. He had to go SSG and then SSB.

But you want to take statements literally, what about those:

Whis: Goku has not only closed the power gap that existed between the two, but has now surpassed the previous power differential between he and Hit. A unique ability such as this (Hit's time skip) only works at maximum efficiency on those equal to or lesser than the users own power level.

Beerus: So why wasn't Vegeta able to overcome Hit in his blue form?

Whis: When he went blue during his fight, he wasn't able to exert even 1/10 of his usual strength. Blue isn't a transformation that can be done over and over again in succession. The amoung of stamina it consumes makes it a detriment in that regards.

Beerus: So the sort of it is, Goku's god form is stronger than Vegeta's blue was back then and it now SURPASSED Hit's current power level. I leave anythng out?

Whis: That about sums it up.

So Hit's time skip works for equal of lesser opponents and then they clearly state that Goku surpassed Hit using the SSG form.

The Viz translation is:
Whis: Goku's power has become far superior to that of Hit's, that's what's happening here. Hit's skills are only effective on those who are near or below his level.

So they don't have to be below him, his ability will work as long as they're not considerably above him.

Near or below, so not above. Then Goku SS was near or below, not above. You now say not considerably above him, but you made that up too, it's not stated. And what about the rest of the sentences?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Near or below, so not above. Then Goku SS was near or below, not above. You now say not considerably above him, but you made up that too, it's not stated. And what about the rest of the sentences?

Near just means close, it could be either above or below. And Viz images can't be copied and it's a real pain to type them out manually, but I'll give it a shot.

Beerus: But Vegeta couldn't do that even in Super Saiyan Blue.
Whis: Vegeta wasn't even able to perform at 10 percent of Super Saiyan Blue's usual strength, that form is something you can only use a few times a day, it consumes too much energy.
Beerus: So you're saying Goku's God form has surpassed that of Vegeta's Blue form, just as it's already surpassed Hit? Is that it?
Whis: Yes, possibly.

[Basako]

Near or below, so not above. Then Goku SS was near or below, not above. You now say not considerably above him, but you made up that too, it's not stated. And what about the rest of the sentences?

Near just means close, it could be either above or below. And Viz images can't be copied and it's a real pain to type them out manually, but I'll give it a shot.

Beerus: But Vegeta couldn't do that even in Super Saiyan Blue.
Whis: Vegeta wasn't even able to perform at 10 percent of Super Saiyan Blue's usual strength, that form is something you can only use a few times a day, it consumes too much energy.
Beerus: So you're saying Goku's God form has surpassed that of Vegeta's Blue form, just as it's already surpassed Hit? Is that it?
Whis: Yes, possibly.

Yeah, sorry, you made me work too, I had to type all that from Mangastream. The content of VIZ is not avaliable from my country...

But he does say that the god form is the one that surpassed Hit. That word means what it means.

[Speedster]

To all those keep saying that SSJ2 Vegeta is above SSJ3 Goku/SSJ2 Trunks here is my question. Why did Vegeta looked shocked to see SSJ2 Trunks being on par with SSJ3 Goku in chapter 15 page 35? He shouldn't if his own SSJ2 was on par with Goku’s SSJ3 let alone hundreds of times higher. Vegeta said this while in awe:

He didn't transform but…he’s as strong as Kakarrot’s Super Saiyan 3…

Anyway unless Black jobbed against Vegeta on purpose in order to receive a Zenkai there is a serious problem with the manga power scaling because the manga essentially says:

Tier 1: SSJ1 Goku
Tier 2: SSJ2 Goku
Tier 3: SSJ3 Goku/SSJ2 Trunks
Tier 4: Base Black (pre-Zenkai)
Tier 5: SSJ1 Black (pre-Zenkai)
Tier 6: SSJ2 Black (pre-Zenkai)
Tier 7: SSJ2 Vegeta
Tier 8: SSJG Goku/Hit’s max power
Tier 9: SSJB Goku/Vegeta
Tier 10: SSJ2 Black (post-Zenkai)
Tier 11: SSJR Black

So we are talking that SSJ2 Vegeta must be 5 tiers (mostly transformation tiers mind you) above SSJ2 Goku (and 4 tiers above SSJ3 Goku). Also Black from a single Zenkai went up 4 tiers and unlocked a form at least 1 tier further i.e. 5 tiers up. Not only this but apparently all these tiers are shoehorned in a mere 10x gap.

SSJ1 Goku/Normal Hit=1
SSJ2 Goku=2
SSJ3 Goku/SSJ2 Trunks=3
Base Black=4
SSJ1 Black=5
SSJ2 Black=6
SSJ2 Vegeta=6.5
SSJ God Goku/Hit (max power)=8
SSJBlue Goku/Vegeta=10
SSJ2 Black (post-Zenkai)=11
SSJ Rose Black=14

[TheUltimateNinja]

Near or below, so not above. Then Goku SS was near or below, not above. You now say not considerably above him, but you made up that too, it's not stated. And what about the rest of the sentences?

Near just means close, it could be either above or below. And Viz images can't be copied and it's a real pain to type them out manually, but I'll give it a shot.

Beerus: But Vegeta couldn't do that even in Super Saiyan Blue.
Whis: Vegeta wasn't even able to perform at 10 percent of Super Saiyan Blue's usual strength, that form is something you can only use a few times a day, it consumes too much energy.
Beerus: So you're saying Goku's God form has surpassed that of Vegeta's Blue form, just as it's already surpassed Hit? Is that it?
Whis: Yes, possibly.

Yeah, sorry, you made me work too, I had to type all that from Mangastream. The content of VIZ is not avaliable from my country...

But he does say that the god form is the one that surpassed Hit. That word means what it means.

Context matters, though. What I'm saying is that SSJ Goku is stronger than Hit, and he is indeed stronger in terms of raw power as confirmed by Beerus, but he was unable to overcome the timeskip and thus was going to be beaten by Hit. Here they're discussing the actual fight and SSGod Goku has definitively surpassed Hit in all aspects, timeskip or not. Being beaten by someone doesn't mean you're weaker than them, thus even though SSJ Goku was unable to overcome Hit's combat ability he still had the advantage in power.

[Pannaliciour]

Near or below, so not above. Then Goku SS was near or below, not above. You now say not considerably above him, but you made up that too, it's not stated. And what about the rest of the sentences?

Near just means close, it could be either above or below. And Viz images can't be copied and it's a real pain to type them out manually, but I'll give it a shot.

Beerus: But Vegeta couldn't do that even in Super Saiyan Blue.
Whis: Vegeta wasn't even able to perform at 10 percent of Super Saiyan Blue's usual strength, that form is something you can only use a few times a day, it consumes too much energy.

Beerus: So you're saying Goku's God form has surpassed that of Vegeta's Blue form, just as it's already surpassed Hit? Is that it?
Whis: Yes, possibly.

Btw if we compare this situation between manga and anime whats worst: Vegeta not knowing that you lose 90% of power by transforming two times OR not knowing/sensing that Goku trained with the kaioken times 10 in the Hyper bolic time champer?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Anyway unless Black jobbed against Vegeta on purpose in order to receive a Zenkai

Not really possible, he completely sperged out when he was getting beaten and started screaming about ningen, this shows that things clearly weren't going according to plan. Plus he was about to actually die, if Zamasu hadn't arrived in the nick of time Black would have been history.

To all those keep saying that SSJ2 Vegeta is above SSJ3 Goku/SSJ2 Trunks here is my question. Why did Vegeta looked shocked to see SSJ2 Trunks being on par with SSJ3 Goku in chapter 15 page 35? He shouldn't if his own SSJ2 was on par with Goku’s SSJ3 let alone hundreds of times higher. Vegeta said this while in awe:

He didn't transform but…he’s as strong as Kakarrot’s Super Saiyan 3…

That's why I'm saying it doesn't make sense that Vegeta's SSJ2 is so strong. His rage boost against Beerus is the only time he's ever displayed such power, but here he's not pissed off at all, so it seems that was a permanent power up.

Btw if we compare this situation between manga and anime whats worst: Vegeta not knowing that you lose 90% of power bu transforming two times OR not knowing/sensing that Goku trained with the kaioken times 10 in the Hyper bolic time champer?

The anime's solution is much better. Goku could have trained while Vegeta was sleeping or far away with his power suppressed, there's no excuse for Vegeta not knowing about SSBlue's side effect despite using it for nearly 4 years.

[Saturnine]

Black never went SSj2 though. His regular SSj just has sparks, but the hair is distinctly SSj1.

[HeroR]

Btw if we compare this situation between manga and anime whats worst: Vegeta not knowing that you lose 90% of power by transforming two times OR not knowing/sensing that Goku trained with the kaioken times 10 in the Hyper bolic time champer?

We don't know how Goku trained the Kaioken and Vegeta didn't seem to know that Trunks surpassed him in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber Chamber during the Cell Saga. So, it isn't out there for Vegeta not to know. Besides, Goku wouldn't practiced the Kaioken up to 10x. He didn't do it when he training during his trip to Namek.

That 90% drop in power is just stupid since Vegeta had that form for over three years and didn't appear to know about the weakness. Or he knew and was just dumb enough not to stay transform after dealing with Cabba.

[Basako]

Near just means close, it could be either above or below. And Viz images can't be copied and it's a real pain to type them out manually, but I'll give it a shot.

Beerus: But Vegeta couldn't do that even in Super Saiyan Blue.
Whis: Vegeta wasn't even able to perform at 10 percent of Super Saiyan Blue's usual strength, that form is something you can only use a few times a day, it consumes too much energy.
Beerus: So you're saying Goku's God form has surpassed that of Vegeta's Blue form, just as it's already surpassed Hit? Is that it?
Whis: Yes, possibly.

Yeah, sorry, you made me work too, I had to type all that from Mangastream. The content of VIZ is not avaliable from my country...

But he does say that the god form is the one that surpassed Hit. That word means what it means.

Context matters, though. What I'm saying is that SSJ Goku is stronger than Hit, and he is indeed stronger in terms of raw power as confirmed by Beerus, but he was unable to overcome the timeskip and thus was going to be beaten by Hit. Here they're discussing the actual fight and SSGod Goku has definitively surpassed Hit in all aspects, timeskip or not. Being beaten by someone doesn't mean you're weaker than them, thus even though SSJ Goku was unable to overcome Hit's combat ability he still had the advantage in power.

Ok, let's see, with stronger I also mean able to defeat. That's why I used the example of USS Trunks, which aparently was stronger than perfect Cell, but meant nothing. Goku became stronger than Hit with the SSG and even SSB, without them, he had no chance. Everything counts.

[Basako]

The anime's solution is much better. Goku could have trained while Vegeta was sleeping or far away with his power suppressed, there's no excuse for Vegeta not knowing about SSBlue's side effect despite using it for nearly 4 years.

I don't get the fist part, but the second. Why do you assume he didn't know the side effect. He made a decision to show Cabba the blue form and deal with the consecuences later.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Ok, let's see, with stronger I also mean able to defeat. That's why I used the example of USS Trunks, which aparently was stronger than perfect Cell, but meant nothing. Goku became stronger than Hit with the SSG and even SSB, without them, he had no chance. Everything counts.

But Grade 3 Trunks was actually stronger than Cell. Cell admitted it himself. His problem was speed, but if they got into a beam clash or a straight brawl Trunks would have won.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The anime's solution is much better. Goku could have trained while Vegeta was sleeping or far away with his power suppressed, there's no excuse for Vegeta not knowing about SSBlue's side effect despite using it for nearly 4 years.

I don't get the fist part, but the second. Why do you assume he didn't know the side effect. He made a decision to show Cabba the blue form and deal with the consecuences later.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that scene. But then it makes no sense Vegeta would intentionally lose 90% of his power just to beat the shit out of Cabba, he could have gone SSJ2 to achieve the same thing.

[prince212]

Ok, let's see, with stronger I also mean able to defeat. That's why I used the example of USS Trunks, which aparently was stronger than perfect Cell, but meant nothing. Goku became stronger than Hit with the SSG and even SSB, without them, he had no chance. Everything counts.

But Grade 3 Trunks was actually stronger than Cell. Cell admitted it himself. His problem was speed, but if they got into a beam clash or a straight brawl Trunks would have won.

power level discussions sucks
go to that thread post please , here just manga please

[Basako]

Ok, let's see, with stronger I also mean able to defeat. That's why I used the example of USS Trunks, which aparently was stronger than perfect Cell, but meant nothing. Goku became stronger than Hit with the SSG and even SSB, without them, he had no chance. Everything counts.

But Grade 3 Trunks was actually stronger than Cell. Cell admitted it himself. His problem was speed, but if they got into a beam clash or a straight brawl Trunks would have won.

That's what I meant. The word strong can be confusing, because there is the brute strength and actually being able to deafeat someone. You know that in a conversation it's usually used for the second meaning. Trunks had no chance against Cell. Would you put Trunks above Cell in a power scale in that time? And Goku got that state too. Even it was implied that Vegeta knew about it but was wise enough not to use it. So who is stronger? The same for Hit, only the God and Blue for are above him. Hit may not have brute strength, but he is stronger than Goku SS and a weakened SSB Vegeta.

[Basako]

Ok, let's see, with stronger I also mean able to defeat. That's why I used the example of USS Trunks, which aparently was stronger than perfect Cell, but meant nothing. Goku became stronger than Hit with the SSG and even SSB, without them, he had no chance. Everything counts.

But Grade 3 Trunks was actually stronger than Cell. Cell admitted it himself. His problem was speed, but if they got into a beam clash or a straight brawl Trunks would have won.

power level discussions sucks
go to that thread post please , here just manga please

Sorry, you are right... We are not even discussing the power levels of this chapter...

[TheUltimateNinja]

power level discussions sucks
go to that thread post please , here just manga please

Sorry, I wasn't intending to go off topic so much.

Anyway, what's the deal with Rose? For now it's looking like the difference between Base Black and SSRose Black isn't that much like in the anime.