Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

Never would I have thought that we would get more confusion in battle powers than what we got in the Boo arc.

[Bullza]

SSBlue isn't that strong, SSJ1/2 Black was effortlessly thrashing Vegeta just now. And earlier he didn't power up from transforming unless you want to say SSJ2 Vegeta is 50-100x SSJ3 as well.

Wouldn't that just mean Black was strong? He had a boost that made him go from under SSJ2 Vegeta to above SSJB Vegeta is all.

But yeah it would have to mean that SSJ2 Vegeta would be over 50 or 100x stronger than SSJ3 Goku which is....ugh.

It's becoming more of a mess than the anime.

[LightBing]

In answer to the conversation in the manga thread. A repost of something I wrote a month or so ago.

10% Blue doesn't equal SSJ.
Even after Goku learns to counter the time-skip, Hit still advices Goku to go Blue which pretty much implies 10% Blue is greater than SSJ.
During the fight SSJ Goku does nothing to Hit, there's even a panel with both the fighters faces where Hit is grinning and Goku clearly struggling since he was getting pretty tired. While it does look like SSJ Goku performed better than Vegeta, both were still equally owed because they were weaker than Hit. Toyotarõ just portrayed the Goku fight in a better light, although it's clear that Goku was being toyed by Hit the whole time.

Finally, Whis explains that Hit's time-skip only works on those weaker or comparable to Hit himself. That's why SSJG which is stronger than 10% Blue breaks the technique. Immediately after hearing this Hit makes a shocked face and says the line "you're on a completely different level".

It goes something like this :
SSJB >>> SSJG >>>>>>>> SSJB(10%) >>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ

Vegeta's Mutated SSJ2 should be close to SSJB (10%) but not quite there yet. Between that gap we can fit SSJ2 Mastered, Black and SSJ3. In this chapter Trunks says that previously Black needed SSJ to defeat him, so Black in base should be that much stronger than SSJ2 Mastered and SSJ3.
Also isn't Black just SSJ in this chapter and not SSJ2? I'm actually not sure.

[TheMikado]

Never would I have thought that we would get more confusion in battle powers than what we got in the Boo arc.

Exactly, that was mild compared to this mess. I remember when we use to complain about base vs SSJ vegetto due to the differences in the manga vs anime. Look how far we've come where the same form is literally thousands of times stronger/weaker depending on which media you're following.

[Simere]

During the fight SSJ Goku does nothing to Hit, there's even a panel with both the fighters faces where Hit is grinning and Goku clearly struggling since he was getting pretty tired. While it does look like SSJ Goku performed better than Vegeta, both were still equally owed because they were weaker than Hit. Toyotarõ just portrayed the Goku fight in a better light, although it's clear that Goku was being toyed by Hit the whole time.

And in that panel, the actual reason he's losing is explained rather than what you're saying. It's clearly stated the reason Goku starts losing is, despite having the power advantage, he's using more energy countering the Time-Skip than it takes for Hit to use it.

[LightBing]

During the fight SSJ Goku does nothing to Hit, there's even a panel with both the fighters faces where Hit is grinning and Goku clearly struggling since he was getting pretty tired. While it does look like SSJ Goku performed better than Vegeta, both were still equally owed because they were weaker than Hit. Toyotarõ just portrayed the Goku fight in a better light, although it's clear that Goku was being toyed by Hit the whole time.

And in that panel, the actual reason he's losing is explained rather than what you're saying. It's clearly stated the reason Goku starts losing is, despite having the power advantage, he's using more energy countering the Time-Skip than it takes for Hit to use it.

But he doesn't have the power advantage as a Super Saiyan. Whis said that Hit's technique only works on those equal or weaker than him and that Goku closed the gap that previously existed when he went SSJG.

[Simere]

During the fight SSJ Goku does nothing to Hit, there's even a panel with both the fighters faces where Hit is grinning and Goku clearly struggling since he was getting pretty tired. While it does look like SSJ Goku performed better than Vegeta, both were still equally owed because they were weaker than Hit. Toyotarõ just portrayed the Goku fight in a better light, although it's clear that Goku was being toyed by Hit the whole time.

And in that panel, the actual reason he's losing is explained rather than what you're saying. It's clearly stated the reason Goku starts losing is, despite having the power advantage, he's using more energy countering the Time-Skip than it takes for Hit to use it.

But he doesn't have the power advantage as a Super Saiyan. Whis said that Hit's technique only works on those equal or weaker than him and that Goku closed the gap that previously existed when he went SSJG.

Then why would Beerus say he does on the next page?

[LightBing]

Then why would Beerus say he does on the next page?

I can ask you the same, why does Whis then said what he said? We're at a stand still, it appears they these are contradictory statements.
Taking into account that Whis statement is after Beerus one and that the Hakaishin needed to ask Whis what the hell is going on. I'm going to trust Whis more than Beerus.
Beerus is being portrayed as ignorant to what's happening. He's a mechanism for the story to explain to us what's going on. By making Beerus the dumb guy who asks questions and Whis the guy who can answer those questions.

We have reasons to doubt Beerus, none to doubt Whis.

[Simere]

It's only contradictory if you're trying to argue that SSJ Goku isn't near 10~% SSB Vegeta. That, or are glossing over the "near" or "comparable" qualifier. Goku could have have had the power advantage, but still not to such an extent that it could overwhelm the Time Skip.

[LightBing]

It's only contradictory if you're trying to argue that SSJ Goku isn't near 10~% SSB Vegeta. That, or are glossing over the "near" or "comparable" qualifier. Goku could have have had the power advantage, but still not to such an extent that it could overwhelm the Time Skip.

I looked back at the chapter and saw another relevant phrase from Beerus. When he sums up what Whis explained, he says that SSJG is stronger than Vegeta's 10% Blue and that now it surpasses Hit's current level. Beerus is disagreeing with his previous statement that Goku had more power. Only after turning SSJB that happened.

[Simere]

Now that's a seeming contradiction. I still maintain, though, that it means the difference in their powers just became too large. You have to ignore too many other things otherwise: Goku deciding to fight as SSJ, their fight itself indicating they were on a comparable level in terms of power, the explanation of Goku losing because his stamina couldn't keep up(if he was also losing in power then this would be pointless), and Beerus's statement.

Just to be clear on what I think their difference was(not precise power scaling, just to demonstrate how Goku could be stronger but still not strong enough):

Hit: 1
SSJ Goku: 1.1
SSG Goku: 2

[LightBing]

Goku said he would use Blue later at the start of the fight and since he didn't knew Hit was hiding power, he's admitting he can't win in SSJ. This point actually supports Goku being weaker than Hit as a SSJ.

The fight didn't indicate they were on a comparable level, we see Hit relaxed and grinning all the time. Hit also decides not hide his movements, since he didn't put his hand on his pockets. Later when he gets serious against SSJG, he puts them there again and did the same against Vegeta.
Hit was toying with Goku, like when he let base Goku hit him a couple of times. The Kais even mentioned they never saw Hit talk so much and the Old Kai says it's all because of Goku.
The story tell us this to allow the fight to have all these stages, instead of just being a beat-down like Vegeta vs Hit. Hit purposely is holding back against SSJ Goku.

Goku was getting tired because he was exerting maximum effort, Hit because like Whis says was stronger than Goku, was able to use his time-skip to it's fullest efficiency meaning barely any effort. If Goku was stronger than Hit, then Hit wouldn't have such a stamina advantage because he wouldn't be able to use the time-skip properly.

Beerus line..., has been talked enough.

[Noah]

Never would I have thought that we would get more confusion in battle powers than what we got in the Boo arc.

Boo arc? You're kidding right? What about GT? That's where things got pretty mess up, now with Super got even more beyond our imagination.

[Simere]

Goku said he would use Blue later at the start of the fight and since he didn't knew Hit was hiding power, he's admitting he can't win in SSJ. This point actually supports Goku being weaker than Hit as a SSJ.

If it were admitting he needed SSB to win it wouldn't make sense because, as far as he knew, SSG was more than sufficient. As you pointed out.

The fight didn't indicate they were on a comparable level, we see Hit relaxed and grinning all the time.

We also see Goku relaxed and grinning. This only changes in the panel where they explain that his energy is beginning to falter.

Hit also decides not hide his movements, since he didn't put his hand on his pockets. Later when he gets serious against SSJG, he puts them there again and did the same against Vegeta.

He kept his hands in his pockets after going full power because he only had one more chance to use it so he was going to do everything he could to make it successful. It's not an indication of seriousness. It would be impossible for him to keep putting his hands in his pockets if someone countered his Time-Skip and they started trading blows.

If Goku was stronger than Hit, then Hit wouldn't have such a stamina advantage because he wouldn't be able to use the time-skip properly.

No, because even though he was stronger, he was still near his level so it worked fully.

[RandomGuy96]

If it's not too much to ask, would someone mind quickly filling me in on the last, oh... three weeks?

Also the new manga chapter. I here they plugged up the power fuckery rather well?

[Sora Saiyan]

There's no indication that they have God ki in any form but SSBlue, though. And Vegeta was performing the exact same against both Base and SSJ Black, in fact he may have even been doing better against SSJ Black because Base Black was at least able to avoid & block some of his hits, so I really doubt SSJ was even a 2x multiplier for Black, let alone 50x.

Yeah I know that, I was just spit balling to try and make a bit of sense out of it.
If the characters didn't mention Blacks SSJ form being any different from theirs I'm definitely not going to pretend it's got a different multiplier. This stuff is like SSJ2 Vegeta vs Kid Buu and later Base Vegeta vs Kid Buu. Super Buu not being able to reach Vegeta before he pulls Fat Buu out... DB hasn't ever consistently shown what the multipliers/power difference should show, but I'm not about to change the multipliers for a couple of moves that missed, especially when nothing was stated to imply any difference in the forms. Either way Vegeta in SSJ2 is somehow way above Trunks even if you try to go with Blacks SSJ being weak, going from Vegetas statement of "Trunks at his current level would be no match for you". So that Vegeta was well above SSJ3 anyway, since he was stomping the SSJ form of Black who can stomp Trunks who is nearing SSJ3.

I think the part that was supposed to imply it in the last chapter was Trunks repeated comments about something being wrong about Black and him fighting Vegeta and telling him to finish Black off quickly because he was suspicious. As I've said before the execution of what was being implied was so bad that it wasn't effective at all.

I just can't buy it, there's no way unless its stated in this new chapter it was intended. He was totally brickinh himself when Vegeta went Blue, forget the scuffle with SSJ2. Trunks knows that Black seemingly gets crazy power ups as he stated it's been a long time since Black has needed to use SSJ against him, so that could be the reason he has a bad feeling. I'm thinking this beat down that Vegeta gives Black is the equivalent of what Toei had shown after he went in the ROSAT, there's the "you can't use his body because you're an impostor" and there's even the Black power up after that turns the tables. Overall it seems so similar, so I'm guessing that this was in Toriyamas notes, as we know they're very brief so it would explain the differences along with the creative freedom.

[Simere]

If it's not too much to ask, would someone mind quickly filling me in on the last, oh... three weeks?

Also the new manga chapter. I here they plugged up the power fuckery rather well?

Debate over whether Goku is over ten times stronger since his first fight with Hit, due to his claim that the Time Skip wouldn't work on him anymore and Hit's questionable agreement.

Some guy tried to claim Golden Freeza is still, at this point in Super, stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta.

Argument over whether Krillin is stronger than Tien due to Krillin once again being identified as the strongest Earthling.

Dashed hopes that Gohan regained his Ultimate/Mystic power after being forced to go Super Saiyan against Watagash. Next episode will have Goku and Gohan sparring a bit which hopefully should give us some better idea of where he's at.

That Black could beat SSB Vegeta as just a SS still seems plenty fucked to me.

[TheMikado]

I think the part that was supposed to imply it in the last chapter was Trunks repeated comments about something being wrong about Black and him fighting Vegeta and telling him to finish Black off quickly because he was suspicious. As I've said before the execution of what was being implied was so bad that it wasn't effective at all.

I just can't buy it, there's no way unless its stated in this new chapter it was intended. He was totally brickinh himself when Vegeta went Blue, forget the scuffle with SSJ2. Trunks knows that Black seemingly gets crazy power ups as he stated it's been a long time since Black has needed to use SSJ against him, so that could be the reason he has a bad feeling. I'm thinking this beat down that Vegeta gives Black is the equivalent of what Toei had shown after he went in the ROSAT, there's the "you can't use his body because you're an impostor" and there's even the Black power up after that turns the tables. Overall it seems so similar, so I'm guessing that this was in Toriyamas notes, as we know they're very brief so it would explain the differences along with the creative freedom.

The parts that I am specifically stating are Black allowing himself to get beat up, and Vegeta beating Black up.

In the anime it appears they accomplished the 1st one in Black's visit to the past where Goku is beating up on Black and Black is enjoying. Trunks says almost the same line word for word as the anime. That Black should be stronger.
The second where Vegeta beat's up Black is pretty obvious.

In the manga it appears Toyotaro may have combined these two plot points. Black allowing himself to get beat up, and Vegeta beating him up. Trunks similar commentary is what pulls it together for me, I just think it was poorly executed by Toyotaro and he relied too much on Trunks exposition to carry the point, that's all.

Anyway all this does is make me really question the outline and the order that the plot points should appear. Honestly it doesn't even seem line this "outline" is written in chronological order. I have no idea what the correct answers are these are just my observations.

[TheMikado]

If it's not too much to ask, would someone mind quickly filling me in on the last, oh... three weeks?

Also the new manga chapter. I here they plugged up the power fuckery rather well?

Debate over whether Goku is over ten times stronger since his first fight with Hit, due to his claim that the Time Skip wouldn't work on him anymore and Hit's questionable agreement.

Some guy tried to claim Golden Freeza is still, at this point in Super, stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta.

Argument over whether Krillin is stronger than Tien due to Krillin once again being identified as the strongest Earthling.

Dashed hopes that Gohan regained his Ultimate/Mystic power after being forced to go Super Saiyan against Watagash. Next episode will have Goku and Gohan sparring a bit which hopefully should give us some better idea of where he's at.

That Black could beat SSB Vegeta as just a SS still seems plenty fucked to me.

Don't forget the alien Tien vs identifying as an earthling argument.

[Gog]

Some guy tried to claim Golden Freeza is still, at this point in Super, stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta.

I still believe , does that make me a bad person? If I think that