Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What the hell is everyone talking about the battle powers being screwed in the manga?

First of all, Whis doesn't say that Tokitobashi works only on those that are equal or weaker than Hit. This is a mistranslation.

Back in the tournament, SSB Vegeta was using less than 10% of his power, and he was still stronger than SS Goku. He just wasn't strong enough to surpass Hit's Tokitobashi, like SS Goku who was also stronger than Hit.

The reason Vegeta used SSB against Hit instead of SS/2 is because this is his strongest form. SSB had already drained his power from his fight with Cabba, so ever since his fight with Hit started, all his forms (base/SS/2/B) were bellow 10%. Transforming against Hit didn't drain his power, his power was further drained from SSB in the end of their fight where he went back to base. That's how it works, SSB doesn't drain the power significantly when they transform or when they stay transformed, it drains the power after it is used.

SS Black beating SSB Vegeta doesn't mean that SSB is weak, in fact it doesn't tell us anything about SSB's power. The only thing it tells us is that Black got a huge near-death power-up.

As for Super Saiyan 2, we saw in BoG that SS2 Vegeta surpassed SS3 Goku & U. Gohan after getting angry. It was never confirmed if this power-up was temporary or permanent. In this arc, we see that Trunks made his SS2 form alone stronger than it normally is, bringing it on SS3 level, and we see that SS2 Vegeta is at an even greater level, even though we've repeatedly seen that he is equal with Goku in base & SSB. So, this arc confirms that not only SS2 Vegeta's power up was permanent to his SS2 form, but it also gives us a better idea of how huge it was. Which makes sense to be huge, since SS3 Goku couldn't touch Beerus who was beating him with his finger, while SS2 Vegeta managed to make Beerus bleed a little. It also shows that SS2 can be improved to at least 2 levels; Trunks brought it to SS3 level, and Vegeta brought it over 50 times above SS3 level, but their base forms are at around the same level (we saw them sparring in the gravity room).

And no, Black wasn't a SS2, stop calling him that.

[ekrolo2]

The only thing inherently wrong with this that I can think of is Vegeta being surprised that SS2 Trunks can match Goku at SS3. If his own SS2 was vastly better, this revelation shouldn't surprise him.
Plus this bloats the power of SSGod and Blue to absurd heights.

[TheMikado]

The only thing inherently wrong with this that I can think of is Vegeta being surprised that SS2 Trunks can match Goku at SS3. If his own SS2 was vastly better, this revelation shouldn't surprise him.
Plus this bloats the power of SSGod and Blue to absurd heights.

He may not be surprised that it can be done, but that Trunks was able to do it at all. Especially all on his own.

[emperior]

The only thing inherently wrong with this that I can think of is Vegeta being surprised that SS2 Trunks can match Goku at SS3. If his own SS2 was vastly better, this revelation shouldn't surprise him.
Plus this bloats the power of SSGod and Blue to absurd heights.

Also Vegeta commenting "No wonder Trunks couldn't beat you" when trashing SSJ Black as a Super Saiyan 2 is weird. If he commented that as a SSB it would make sense.
Anyways, it seems like Black has a mastered SSJ form, which should provide him a boost close to SSJ3. That's my theory, and I base it on the fact Black has SSJ1 hair + the sparks, and Toriyama also has depicted Goku in that way in Neko Majin Z and on a promotional image. Since Toriyama commented Goku stopped using the powered up forms to focus on mastering SSJ, I think his way of representing a mastered SSJ is adding sparks to it.
Black must have received a huge Zenkai to be able to beat Vegeta as a SSJ though.

[ekrolo2]

The only thing inherently wrong with this that I can think of is Vegeta being surprised that SS2 Trunks can match Goku at SS3. If his own SS2 was vastly better, this revelation shouldn't surprise him.
Plus this bloats the power of SSGod and Blue to absurd heights.

Also Vegeta commenting "No wonder Trunks couldn't beat you" when trashing SSJ Black as a Super Saiyan 2 is weird. If he commented that as a SSB it would make sense.
Anyways, it seems like Black has a mastered SSJ form, which should provide him a boost close to SSJ3. That's my theory, and I base it on the fact Black has SSJ1 hair + the sparks, and Toriyama also has depicted Goku in that way in Neko Majin Z and on a promotional image. Since Toriyama commented Goku stopped using the powered up forms to focus on mastering SSJ, I think his way of representing a mastered SSJ is adding sparks to it.
Black must have received a huge Zenkai to be able to beat Vegeta as a SSJ though.

I don't take any of Toriyama's old comments seriously anymore since everything we've gotten from the new stuff has directly contradicted statements like that. I think its far more sensible to assume Super Saiyan 1 gets sparks once your overall power increases to staggering levels. Vegetto has an SS3+ tier Base and has sparks when transforming but then admits he's powered down as he doesn't need his full power to bitch slap Boohan around. Blacks Base is in the same space as Vegetto's so he'd get sparks too.
I also don't think Black powered up much overall, more that he just got SSRose and that gave him a big enough boost to trounce Vegeta.

[LightBing]

I also don't think Black powered up much overall, more that he just got SSRose and that gave him a big enough boost to trounce Vegeta.

He beat up Vegeta in SSJ. He just went Rosé because he's an asshole. The last part is my assumption, which fits the bastard.

[ekrolo2]

I also don't think Black powered up much overall, more that he just got SSRose and that gave him a big enough boost to trounce Vegeta.

He beat up Vegeta in SSJ. He just went Rosé because he's an asshole. The last part is my assumption, which fits the bastard.

Oh right, hrm.... I guess the Goku who's body he stole is a lot stronger than main timeline Goku? We still don't know Black's actual backstory besides the fact he stole Goku's body but we don't know how far into the future he waited to do it.

[emperior]

I also don't think Black powered up much overall, more that he just got SSRose and that gave him a big enough boost to trounce Vegeta.

He beat up Vegeta in SSJ. He just went Rosé because he's an asshole. The last part is my assumption, which fits the bastard.

Oh right, hrm.... I guess the Goku who's body he stole is a lot stronger than main timeline Goku? We still don't know Black's actual backstory besides the fact he stole Goku's body but we don't know how far into the future he waited to do it.

He waited one year, which is the time it takes for Super DBs to recharge

[ekrolo2]

He waited one year, which is the time it takes for Super DBs to recharge

Does he say that in the manga or is that just from the anime?

[emperior]

He waited one year, which is the time it takes for Super DBs to recharge

Does he say that in the manga or is that just from the anime?

It's from the anime but it's safe to assume he didn't wait more than that.

[Saturnine]

Whatever we think about that, to me it seems that:

New angel > Vados > Whis

[Simere]

Whatever we think about that, to me it seems that:

New angel > Vados > Whis

Based on what, the cut of his jaw?

[Saturnine]

Whatever we think about that, to me it seems that:

New angel > Vados > Whis

Based on what, the cut of his jaw?

Precisely that. He looks big and burly and badass. And Broly was big, burly and a badass, and we know his power was maximum.

[Bullza]

And no, Black wasn't a SS2, stop calling him that.

He's definitely a Super Saiyan 2.

This has actually been very consistent in the manga. In all the fights over 20 chapters that have involved the Super Saiyan form there has not been so much as one spark that's appeared on the form. Literally, not one.

There has been sparks every time they've used Super Saiyan 2 without fail.

Black has sparks on pretty much every panel where he's fighting. That's Super Saiyan 2.

[ekrolo2]

And no, Black wasn't a SS2, stop calling him that.

He's definitely a Super Saiyan 2.

This has actually been very consistent in the manga. In all the fights over 20 chapters that have involved the Super Saiyan form there has not been so much as one spark that's appeared on the form. Literally, not one.

There has been sparks every time they've used Super Saiyan 2 without fail.

Black has sparks on pretty much every panel where he's fighting. That's Super Saiyan 2.

Except everyone just calls him a Super Saiyan, never 2.

[TheMikado]

I also don't think Black powered up much overall, more that he just got SSRose and that gave him a big enough boost to trounce Vegeta.

He beat up Vegeta in SSJ. He just went Rosé because he's an asshole. The last part is my assumption, which fits the bastard.

Oh right, hrm.... I guess the Goku who's body he stole is a lot stronger than main timeline Goku? We still don't know Black's actual backstory besides the fact he stole Goku's body but we don't know how far into the future he waited to do it.

It's EoZ/GT Goku

[Bullza]

Except everyone just calls him a Super Saiyan, never 2.

It's not like they have to be that weirdly specific. They're both Super Saiyan. There's been examples of that before , they referred to Goku as just a Super Saiyan when he fought Black and I think Zamasu as well but most here still assume it was Super Saiyan 2.

If you look through the manga it's been very clear cut more than it ever has been which is which. Every time they've used Super Saiyan there's been no sparks and every time they've used Super Saiyan 2 there has been sparks without exception.

I see no reason why that would just randomly change now.

[ekrolo2]

You are right about the sparks thing but Toyotaro also has that "fanboy" thing where he likes to keep dialogue specific like how he pointlessly has Whis and Beerus have an exchange confirming that Goku and Trunks are in fact using SS2.
This also wouldn't be the first time regular SS had sparks either, Goku has them in Neko Majin Z.

[Bullza]

You'd think it'd be more of a fanboy thing to keep his forms specific especially after he'd been doing so for 19 chapters in the last year and a half. Why would he mess that up now?

Compare how Goku looked in that scene where they said he was a Super Saiyan 2 to how he was when he fought Frost as a Super Saiyan and Black obviously looks more similar to the former.

Black looks exactly the same as Vegeta but they're two completely different forms?

I think the Dragon Ball Z anime had sparks in the Super Saiyan form so it has happened but this Super manga has all been done by one person whose been consistent from the start. Toyotaro drew Black with sparks in a couple dozen panels over two chapters.

[HeroR]

This is the new 'was Gohan a Super Saiyan 1 or 2 against Dabura' isn't?

And this is why I hate Super Saiyan 2.