Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

At this point, any kind of interpretation of the power levels is fair game. With that said, I would like to hear everyone's opinion on the SSGSS "multiplier".
Personally, I think it should be pretty low, a little stronger than SS3'S 400x.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Whis isn't saying in the image you just posted that if the opponent is stronger than Hit, Tokitobashi doesn't work on him. VulgarStream made it sound like that.

Huh? But... that is exactly what Whis is saying.

"Hit's skills are only effective against opponents who are near or below his level."

Sounds pretty clear cut to me.

Yeah. Unless you want to argue "skills" doesn't mean "Time Skip" (even though Hit hasn't been using anything else up to that point), I'm not seeing any room for interpretation.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What? That's the way my fiancé translated it, and the way Viz translated it. (Even VulgarStream ended up with the same thing.) So, unless Herms is seeing something the rest of us didn't...

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Whis isn't saying in the image you just posted that if the opponent is stronger than Hit, Tokitobashi doesn't work on him. VulgarStream made it sound like that.

Huh? But... that is exactly what Whis is saying.



Sounds pretty clear cut to me.

"Hit's skills are only effective against opponents who are near [aka stronger, but to a certain point] or below [aka weaker] his level."

SS Goku was stated to be stronger than Hit, yet he wasn't strong enough to overcome it, so he falls into the "near" category, while SSG Goku was too strong for Hit. Beerus & Whis only said that SSG Goku surpassed >10% SSB Vegeta, and Hit implied that SS Goku was weaker than the SSB Vegeta he faced as well.

And no, Black wasn't a SS2, stop calling him that.

He's definitely a Super Saiyan 2.

This has actually been very consistent in the manga. In all the fights over 20 chapters that have involved the Super Saiyan form there has not been so much as one spark that's appeared on the form. Literally, not one.

There has been sparks every time they've used Super Saiyan 2 without fail.

Black has sparks on pretty much every panel where he's fighting. That's Super Saiyan 2.

By that logic, SS3 Goku is a SS2. Look at Black's freaking hair.

Irrelevant, Black's body shouldn't even budge from a hit the moment that Black saw him.

Again... that's not how it works.

Yes, it is? That's exactly how Dragon Ball's power system works. If you're much stronger than your opponent, then your opponent's hits don't faze you unless you're unaware of their presence. Vegeta blasts second form Freeza in the back and it barely scratches him. Kuririn tries to attack Cell and he doesn't even budge.

Sneak attacks only work if:
a) The opponent is unaware of your presence;
b) You're using a special technique (Shin Kikoho, Kienzan);

None of these factors were at play.

Dragon Ball may be science-fiction, but it still follows some basic real-life rules. Just because Black was fast enough to see him attacking doesn't mean he had the time to react. And he didn't, because he was distracted by the Time Machine that was his #1 priority to destroy.

[DBZ Macky]

Whis isn't saying in the image you just posted that if the opponent is stronger than Hit, Tokitobashi doesn't work on him. VulgarStream made it sound like that.

Huh? But... that is exactly what Whis is saying.

"Hit's skills are only effective against opponents who are near or below his level."

Sounds pretty clear cut to me.

Yeah. Unless you want to argue "skills" doesn't mean "Time Skip" (even though Hit hasn't been using anything else up to that point), I'm not seeing any room for interpretation.

Although I don't think it's that way, but a different interpretation is possible. Take for example, Guldo.
His power was barely working against Kuririn and Gohan.

I'll be talking about the Anime here, it's been a while since I've read the Namek stuff.
The moment Guldo stopped his breath, Gohan and Kuririn were already close enough to him that if he hesitated for even a couple more seconds, he would certainly get hit.

So maybe Hit's power works like that? Maybe Goku was so far and above Hit that Hit just wasn't able to react in time?

Also, repeating here, but if SS Goku was stronger than SSGSS Vegeta at 10%, does that mean that SSGSS has a less than 500x multiplier?

[Bullza]

By that logic, SS3 Goku is a SS2. Look at Black's freaking hair.

How's that by that logic? Super Saiyan has no sparks. Super Saiyan 2 has sparks. It's consistently been drawn that one from chapter 1. The regular Super Saiyan form has never been drawn with sparks in this manga. Black has sparks.

His hair looks like Super Saiyan on some panels and Super Saiyan 2 on other panels. Looking at chapter 2 when Goku uses Super Saiyan and then Super Saiyan 2 then that first shot of Black transformed has hair more like Goku as a Super Saiyan 2.

[Lord Beerus]

SS Goku was stated to be stronger than Hit, yet he wasn't strong enough to overcome it, so he falls into the "near" category, while SSG Goku was too strong for Hit. Beerus & Whis only said that SSG Goku surpassed >10% SSB Vegeta, and Hit implied that SS Goku was weaker than the SSB Vegeta he faced as well.

Don't you kind see what the problem is with that statement? SSJ Goku was definitely keeping up with Hit and his Time Skip until fatigue kicked in. It was never a case of SSJ Goku being weaker than Hit. Hell, it's the arguably opposite. It's just that Goku didn't have enough stamina to maintain keeping up with Hit's Time Skip. How can SSJ Goku be heavily implied to be as strong as Hit, a circumstance which should prevent him being affected by Hit's Time Skip, yet he's still affected by Hit's Time Skip ability?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

SS Goku was stated to be stronger than Hit, yet he wasn't strong enough to overcome it, so he falls into the "near" category, while SSG Goku was too strong for Hit. Beerus & Whis only said that SSG Goku surpassed >10% SSB Vegeta, and Hit implied that SS Goku was weaker than the SSB Vegeta he faced as well.

Don't you kind see what the problem is with that statement? SSJ Goku was definitely keeping up with Hit and his Time Skip until fatigue kicked in. It was never a case of SSJ Goku being weaker than Hit. Hell, it's the arguably opposite. It's just that Goku didn't have enough stamina to maintain keeping up with Hit's Time Skip.

SS Goku was keeping up with Hit because he could react fast enough, while SSG Goku made the Tokitobashi unable to work to its full extent.

How can SSJ Goku be heavily implied to be as strong as Hit, a circumstance which should prevent him being affected by Hit's Time Skip, yet he's still affected by Hit's Time Skip ability?

It is stated that SS Goku is stronger than Hit, not implied. That's why the interpretation of "near or below" meaning "a little weaker or weaker" makes no sense. By "near or below", Whis means "stronger but not far stronger, or weaker".

[Saturnine]

The Cell thing was anime filler only. The manga follows the manga and the anime follows the anime.

That's a rather arbitrary thing to say. Just because the Super anime has Gregory and Satan's entourage in it, doesn't mean it's less faithful to the manga than Toyotaro's manga. These two media are actually equivalent, probably with a slight bias towards the anime even. The Super anime can definitely be considered a legitimate continuation of Toriyama's manga in its own right, no less than the manga adaptation at the very least.

[HeroR]

The Cell thing was anime filler only. The manga follows the manga and the anime follows the anime.

That's a rather arbitrary thing to say. Just because the Super anime has Gregory and Satan's entourage in it, doesn't mean it's less faithful to the manga than Toyotaro's manga. These two media are actually equivalent, probably with a slight bias towards the anime even. The Super anime can definitely be considered a legitimate continuation of Toriyama's manga in its own right, no less than the manga adaptation at the very least.

Super even had a scene that only happened in the manga, the two bank robbers. So the anime also takes from the manga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

By that logic, SS3 Goku is a SS2. Look at Black's freaking hair.

How's that by that logic? Super Saiyan has no sparks. Super Saiyan 2 has sparks. It's consistently been drawn that one from chapter 1. The regular Super Saiyan form has never been drawn with sparks in this manga. Black has sparks.

His hair looks like Super Saiyan on some panels and Super Saiyan 2 on other panels. Looking at chapter 2 when Goku uses Super Saiyan and then Super Saiyan 2 then that first shot of Black transformed has hair more like Goku as a Super Saiyan 2.

And SS & SS2 Goku has also been consistently drawn with specific hairstyles, and SS Black's hairstyle is consistent with that of SS Goku's (it only looks slightly different because of the air in a few panels) and looks nothing like SS2 Goku's hairstyle.

[Bullza]

What air? They always fight outside there's air for everyone. It's not like they made a point of huge gusts of wind were blowing his hair up. Some shots it looks spikier than others.

Why are we talking about his hair?

The sparks are clear and undeniable to see. Unless he decided to take a dump on his consistency or Black just so happens to have a unique form of Super Saiyan that has the same sparks as Super Saiyan 2 then it's Super Saiyan 2.

[Simere]

Whis isn't saying in the image you just posted that if the opponent is stronger than Hit, Tokitobashi doesn't work on him. VulgarStream made it sound like that.

Huh? But... that is exactly what Whis is saying.

"Hit's skills are only effective against opponents who are near or below his level."

Sounds pretty clear cut to me.

Yeah. Unless you want to argue "skills" doesn't mean "Time Skip" (even though Hit hasn't been using anything else up to that point), I'm not seeing any room for interpretation.

Does the original language not allow for "near" to mean slightly or moderately stronger?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Does the original language not allow for "near" to mean slightly or moderately stronger?

It did in Korean. I don't know about Japanese. The issue here is that, given the context of everything surrounding the line, I don't think anyone was actually suggesting that the Time Skip wouldn't work on people in that general tier of power, even those only slightly stronger. Unless you're being super pedantic, "technique a doesn't work on someone stronger than person b" doesn't mean it stops the moment you're one power level point above your opponent. At least not to me. So I don't see the point of nitpicking to that minute type of level. This isn't Pokemon, where a one level difference renders one-hit KO moves useless.

[TheUltimateNinja]

In the Viz translation at least Whis notes that SSGod Goku is far above Hit and 10% SSBlue Vegeta, and even then the timeskip wasn't fully broken, just shortened.

So it seems to me that being stronger than Hit doesn't just immediately render his timeskip useless, but rather simply shortens it proportionally to the gap in power. So SSJ Goku, being only slightly stronger than Hit, was most likely too weak to make any sort of difference in the length of the timeskip unlike SSGod Goku who was vastly stronger.

[Hugo Boss]

Changing the subject a bit, did Trunks became stronger in this recent chapter? I remember Vegeta saying he couldn't beat SS(2) Black but he wasn't stronger than Base Black either, so did anything happen?

[HeroR]

Changing the subject a bit, did Trunks became stronger in this recent chapter? I remember Vegeta saying he couldn't beat SS(2) Black but he wasn't stronger than Base Black either, so did anything happen?

Nothing was said about Trunks getting a power-up.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Changing the subject a bit, did Trunks became stronger in this recent chapter? I remember Vegeta saying he couldn't beat SS(2) Black but he wasn't stronger than Base Black either, so did anything happen?

Nope. Trunks just kept taking Black off-guard, who was focused on Mai & destroying the Time Machine.

[Bullza]

New episode.

Goku sparred with Gohan for some reason Goku needed to turn Super Saiyan and Gohan (as a Super Saiyan) was still able to have a good go of it. How on Earth do you explain that?

Base Goku was supposed to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks before getting multiple times stronger by now. Gohan isn't supposed to train so much now and as weaker than he was as Mystic Gohan so that fight shouldn't have happened as it did at all.

Two Base theory? Goku held back by the hundreds or thousands yet still went Super Saiyan anyway? It's filler so just completely ignore it but then wouldn't you have to ignore the other filler aswell? There actually was a retcon of their Base strength? God help us all.

Also for some reason Krillin actually bled when he was shot.

[LowRyder2005]

Darned Bullza, I was about the give the newsflash with a "BREAKING NEWS" label. This is some pretty heavy stuff that will drive the fanbase crazy, haha. A cornerstone for a lot of people nowadays was (and for some will still be, probably) "Base Goku and Vegeta > everything but the Gods". I'm kind of giggling in my head because I can already hear the echoes of fellow message-boards raging with strength debates.

My own interpretation is at this point that there was a normal base and the "beyond God base" which - for some reason - hasn't been used since the Copy Vegeta arc. Goku will simply go Super Saiyan 1/2/3 to give himself a handicap. After all, "handicapping himself" is the same as fighting not at his full strength, I guess. The same Goku/ Vegeta won't use the super awesome base, which is a state in-between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan Blue.

Putting aside explanations like "Goku went Super Saiyan to get x times stronger, but then punched Gohan with x/100000 of his Super Saiyan strength", I suppose this will be my in-universe stance for some time. And I can see a lot of folks adopting something similar. Goku was probably still going easy, I think, but I'd have a lot of trouble picturing him as dozens of times stronger than Gohan.

If anyone missed the brief fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4B9bFgf_jM

[TheMikado]

New episode.

Goku sparred with Gohan for some reason Goku needed to turn Super Saiyan and Gohan (as a Super Saiyan) was still able to have a good go of it. How on Earth do you explain that?

Base Goku was supposed to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks before getting multiple times stronger by now. Gohan isn't supposed to train so much now and as weaker than he was as Mystic Gohan so that fight shouldn't have happened as it did at all.

Two Base theory? Goku held back by the hundreds or thousands yet still went Super Saiyan anyway? It's filler so just completely ignore it but then wouldn't you have to ignore the other filler aswell? There actually was a retcon of their Base strength? God help us all.

Also for some reason Krillin actually bled when he was shot.

I think it's funny how everything comes back to the two base theory.