"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

I'm not understanding what specifically is making people believe Beerus was supposed to kill Zamasu in the original timeline?

But nobody said this.

[TheMikado]

I'm not understanding what specifically is making people believe Beerus was supposed to kill Zamasu in the original timeline?

But nobody said this.

We aren't forgetting anything. There is no version of events where Trunks doesn't come back, we can infer this because Trunks strongly implies that travelling back by the exact amount of time as he did in the Android Arc won't split the timeline (I think this was Chapter 14, but it could be 15). This means that all following events have to unfold the same way, meaning that Beerus always ends up killing Zamasu, stopping him from even beginning his plan. Syntax errors ensue.

Your error is in assuming that the dominoes can fall in a way where Beerus doesn't meet Zamasu, even though such a thing is impossible in any version of our present timeline.

Do you have questions about anything I just said?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I'm not understanding what specifically is making people believe Beerus was supposed to kill Zamasu in the original timeline?

I've explained the exact, mechanical reason twice now. Once more: Since Trunks didn't split the timeline when he escaped to our present, he always shows up in our timeline. Since he always shows up, they always find out about Goku Black, and by extension, Zamasu. Since they always find out, Beerus always goes to confront and destroy Zamasu.

There's no way around it, and no way you could possibly think otherwise once you examine it thoroughly.

[TheMikado]

I'm not understanding what specifically is making people believe Beerus was supposed to kill Zamasu in the original timeline?

I've explained the exact, mechanical reason twice now. Once more: Since Trunks didn't split the timeline when he escaped to our present, he always shows up in our timeline. Since he always shows up, they always find out about Goku Black, and by extension, Zamasu. Since they always find out, Beerus always goes to confront and destroy Zamasu.

But he did split it which is why there are 6 rings now.
There was a version where Trunks doesn't show up which is where Black was created, Trunks comes back and tells Beerus and splits the timeline creating a new ring. I don't understand how it doesn't work any other way.

[Doctor.]

But he did split it which is why there are 6 rings now.

No, he didn't. Gowasu checked the rings after Trunks had already travelled back in time and there were only five.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

But he did split it which is why there are 6 rings now.

The anime, manga, and official Toei timeline disagree with you. By every account, the timeline split because Beerus erased Zamasu's history, which is the heart of the issue. He shouldn't be able to erase a history that never existed, since the present timeline hadn't split yet.

Edit:

No, he didn't. Gowasu checked the rings after Trunks had already travelled back in time and there were only five.

Also, this.

[TheMikado]

But he did split it which is why there are 6 rings now.

No, he didn't. Gowasu checked the rings after Trunks had already travelled back in time and there were only five.

Trunks himself doesn't cause the split, Beerus destroying Zamasu does. Trunks coming back merely makes it so Beerus can split the timeline and that's when the additional ring is created.

[TheMikado]

But he did split it which is why there are 6 rings now.

The anime, manga, and official Toei timeline disagree with you. By every account, the timeline split because Beerus erased Zamasu's history, which is the heart of the issue. He shouldn't be able to erase a history that never existed, since the present timeline hadn't split yet.

Edit:

No, he didn't. Gowasu checked the rings after Trunks had already travelled back in time and there were only five.

Also, this.

Beerus can't erase history, I thought that was confirmed BS.

[Doctor.]

But he did split it which is why there are 6 rings now.

No, he didn't. Gowasu checked the rings after Trunks had already travelled back in time and there were only five.

Trunks himself doesn't cause the split, Beerus destroying Zamasu does. Trunks coming back merely makes it so Beerus can split the timeline and that's when the additional ring is created.

This doesn't make any sense. Cell killing Trunks doesn't create a split-future timeline. It's Cell time-travelling back to the past that creates a split-past timeline.

The act of time travel is what creates the split. It's not the changes caused by the split that causes the split, that makes no sense.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

But he did split it which is why there are 6 rings now.

No, he didn't. Gowasu checked the rings after Trunks had already travelled back in time and there were only five.

Trunks himself doesn't cause the split, Beerus destroying Zamasu does. Trunks coming back merely makes it so Beerus can split the timeline and that's when the additional ring is created.

Read my post:

I've explained the exact, mechanical reason twice now. Once more: Since Trunks didn't split the timeline when he escaped to our present, he always shows up in our timeline. Since he always shows up, they always find out about Goku Black, and by extension, Zamasu. Since they always find out, Beerus always goes to confront and destroy Zamasu.

Trunks travelling back always happens, so Beerus always destroys Zamasu before he can do anything. Goku Black cannot exist.

[TheMikado]

Hah, just read from his twitter the Bootstrap, Alternate Line combo is also there in the manga. Great.

I have not read the manga yet but this has definitely convinced me to do so. Apparently it lacks a bit more explanation but I have the anime so I don't care.

It can be read that way, but I don't really think that's the intention. Black doesn't have any knowledge about the events that transpired in the "past" after Trunks went back or anything like that, meaning he should originate from the main timeline without Trunks' interference. However, the characters still call him the Zamasu of "our world" or "Goku-san's world" because they probably still see him as such.

So I want to say that Trunks was the impetus for the change, but Beerus was the trigger point that causes whatever mystical force watches over time in the Super continuities to forge a new ring. Because Zamasu's death was the first BIG change and that's what forced apart the divergence, even if Trunks is what sparked it.

A similar line of thinking would be when Trunks first went to the past, his arrival in the timeline may not have had enough of an effect to force the split immediately anf create a ring, but perhaps his stepping in against Freeza finally changed enough to splinter the timeline. As it could have had a spiderweb of effects. Such as, maybe preventing Goku from using SS in a big battle with Freeza and Cold kept his heart from weakening and delayed the virus.

I'm just quoting this because I'm obviously not the only one who came to the same conclusion.

[dbzfan7]

After seeing the translation, man is this chapter a breath of fresh air. I absolutely love the concepts here. It's by no means perfect, and has it's problems, but compared to the anime it just handles things so much better and more interestingly it's concepts. That's not to say the anime didn't do somethings better, as it did and people have said them already. A mix of the two would really make the arc that much stronger.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I'm just quoting this because I'm obviously not the only one who came to the same conclusion.

TheDevilsCorpse is wrong here, too. There shouldn't even be disagreement here, it's an obvious contradiction, and I've explained in detail why 4 times now with no adequate refutation, as has Doctor.

[TheMikado]

No, he didn't. Gowasu checked the rings after Trunks had already travelled back in time and there were only five.

Trunks himself doesn't cause the split, Beerus destroying Zamasu does. Trunks coming back merely makes it so Beerus can split the timeline and that's when the additional ring is created.

Read my post:

I've explained the exact, mechanical reason twice now. Once more: Since Trunks didn't split the timeline when he escaped to our present, he always shows up in our timeline. Since he always shows up, they always find out about Goku Black, and by extension, Zamasu. Since they always find out, Beerus always goes to confront and destroy Zamasu.

Trunks travelling back always happens, so Beerus always destroys Zamasu before he can do anything. Goku Black cannot exist.

Again this isn't true, in the original timeline before Black is created why would Trunks appear in that ORIGINAL timeline if Black doesn't even exist in any timeline yet.lThat's NOT how time travel works in the DB universe.

[Doctor.]

That's NOT how time travel works in the DB universe.

Of course not, that's the point. It's a plot hole.

We know Trunks doesn't split the timeline. We know it's Beerus that splits it. This is an impossibility because Beerus couldn't learn about Black unless Trunks travelled back in time. If Trunks isn't the cause of the split, then that means that Trunks coming back in time and warning Beerus is already predetermined to always happen. Which makes no sense.

[TheMikado]

I'm just quoting this because I'm obviously not the only one who came to the same conclusion.

TheDevilsCorpse is wrong here, too. There shouldn't even be disagreement here, it's an obvious contradiction, and I've explained in detail why 4 times now with no adequate refutation, as has Doctor.

Your logic is not following the DB universe laws of time travel. Just like Trunks cannot go back into the original timeline where Goku dies which created Trunks world in the first place he cannot go back into the original timeline that created Black. This is at least one timeline which Trunks did not go back into which was the original timeline. The time line mechanics work just like the Cell saga.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Again this isn't true, in the original timeline before Black is created why would Trunks appear in that ORIGINAL timeline if Black doesn't even exist in any timeline yet.lThat's NOT how time travel works in the DB universe.

You have totally missed the point. Obviously, he does exist for the sake of the narrative. Our contention is that he shouldn't be able to. No series of events should be able to lead up to Goku Black, it's like dividing by 0. You're the one who isn't following how DB's time travel works.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Your logic is not following the DB universe laws of time travel. Just like Trunks cannot go back into the original timeline where Goku dies which created Trunks world in the first place he cannot go back into the original timeline that created Black.

These aren't the actual rules, you're trying to refute us with your head-canon. If what you're saying is true, he can literally never time travel without splitting the timeline, which is obviously not true.

He only splits the timeline if he goes into the past of a particular world, outside of an established time machine link. This is strongly implied in DBS Ch. 14 (maybe 15)

[TheMikado]

Again this isn't true, in the original timeline before Black is created why would Trunks appear in that ORIGINAL timeline if Black doesn't even exist in any timeline yet.lThat's NOT how time travel works in the DB universe.

You have totally missed the point. Obviously, he does exist for the sake of the narrative. Our contention is that he shouldn't be able to. No series of events should be able to lead up to Goku Black, it's like dividing by 0. You're the one who isn't following how DB's time travelworks.

No I've explain it already, ill map it out for your.

Timeline 5: Zamasu becomes Goku Black, No Trunks because Black doesn't exist yet... this is where Trunks meets Black and goes into timeline 6 past.

Tineline 6: Black exists making Trunks from timeline 5 go into the past of timeline 6, he can't go back in his own timeline only a different one. This is where Beerus kills Zamasu and causes the split.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

No I've explain it already, ill map it out for your.

Timeline 5: Zamasu becomes Goku Black, No Trunks because Black doesn't exist yet... this is where Trunks meets Black and goes into timeline 6 past.

Tineline 6: Black exists making Trunks from timeline 5 go into the past of timeline 6, he can't go back in his own timeline only a different one. This is where Beerus kills Zamasu and causes the split.

You didn't explain anything here. You're obviously not actually thinking about this from any perspective other than the one given to us through Toyotaro. If you can't think past that, it's useless to try to explain anything to you.