Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

I guess that fight confirmed the two base theory for me and also deconfirmed Ultimate being a seperate transformation. Unless of course Gohan goes Ultimate in the tournament.

[Doctor.]

So, Goku is as strong as Gohan which just lends to the theory that his power got retconned hard following the F arc.

Also Kuririn can be hurt by bullets, which lends to the theory that... something is seriously off about Super PLs.

[dbgtFO]

New episode.

Goku sparred with Gohan for some reason Goku needed to turn Super Saiyan and Gohan (as a Super Saiyan) was still able to have a good go of it. How on Earth do you explain that?

Base Goku was supposed to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks before getting multiple times stronger by now. Gohan isn't supposed to train so much now and as weaker than he was as Mystic Gohan so that fight shouldn't have happened as it did at all.

Two Base theory? Goku held back by the hundreds or thousands yet still went Super Saiyan anyway? It's filler so just completely ignore it but then wouldn't you have to ignore the other filler aswell? There actually was a retcon of their Base strength? God help us all.

Also for some reason Krillin actually bled when he was shot.

I think it's funny how everything comes back to the two base theory.

BWAHAHA
Never in doubt!
Now the haters are really going to cry filler
But yeah just another example of Toei logic, are people finally going to believe it is a thing or not?

[LowRyder2005]

Yeah, yeah. Don't get too cocky, dbgtFO, bet you're finally happy that you got (like) twenty second of Gohan not getting pimp-slapped around? Uh?

[spoiler]I mean, at this point of the series, who wouldn't be? I know I am. [/spoiler]

[Bullza]

Nah I still don't think it's a thing. Over 70 episodes and still no explanation even though it would have taken 30 seconds to explain it?

I think it's all just really bad writing to be honest. In the Resurrection F saga Super Saiyan Gohan stood no chance against Frieza in his first form while Base Goku was stronger than him in his Final Form so hundreds of times stronger.

Goku trains really hard for several years worth. Gohan doesn't train that much and is much weaker than his old Mystic self.

And yet Super Saiyan Gohan can fight on par with Super Saiyan Goku.....that doesn't make sense even with the two base theory.

Saying there was a retcon doesn't make sense because it was implied that Base Future Trunks is stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks and that was only in the last saga.

[dbgtFO]

Yeah, yeah. Don't get too cocky, dbgtFO, bet you're finally happy that you got (like) twenty second of Gohan not getting pimp-slapped around? Uh?

[spoiler]I mean, at this point of the series, who wouldn't be? I know I am. [/spoiler]

Of course I'm not that serious about it, still it just further helps my stance in regards to Toei's questionable power level logic(video game logic, as I call it).

[LowRyder2005]

Nah I still don't think it's a thing. Over 70 episodes and still no explanation even though it would have taken 30 seconds to explain it?

I think it's all just really bad writing to be honest. In the Resurrection F saga Super Saiyan Gohan stood no chance against Frieza in his first form while Base Goku was stronger than him in his Final Form so hundreds of times stronger.

I don't disagree. I'm with you, in fact. Maybe I needed to clarify it further: it appears as a 100% standard case of bad writing to me as well, but if you forced an in-universe explanation out of me, I'd say that they have two bases. Which will most likely still be completely ignored from now on.

Regarding Trunks vs. Trunks, I'd say that at this point (in Super) they kids could be intended to be on Namek saga levels while Gohan/Goku/Mirai Trunks/Vegeta/Piccolo are well above them. It would kind of harken back to Yo! neatly, when Goku said that a Freeza-level opponent could have constituted "good training" for the kids.
If we take everything into account in the anime, we know for a fact that the first four are more or less equals when using specific forms; Piccolo is a bit more difficult to pinpoint, but I'd go with the stock "stronger than base, weaker than Super Saiyan" interpretation.

[HeroR]

This is why everyone should wait for subs before going off the rails.

If you read the official subs, it's clear that both Goku and Gohan are roleplaying and are basically dicking around.

As for Krillin getting cut by a bullet, again, in the sub 18 lampshades that Krillin had no business getting hurt by one and it's a great shame for Krillin.

[TheMikado]

This is why everyone should wait for subs before going off the rails.

If you read the official subs, it's clear that both Goku and Gohan are roleplaying and are basically dicking around.

As for Krillin getting cut by a bullet, again, in the sub 18 lampshades that Krillin had no business getting hurt by one and it's a great shame for Krillin.

Gohan specifically tells Goku not to hold back. If he's above SSJ3 Gotenks level that's a pretty dangerous thing to ask.

[HeroR]

This is why everyone should wait for subs before going off the rails.

If you read the official subs, it's clear that both Goku and Gohan are roleplaying and are basically dicking around.

As for Krillin getting cut by a bullet, again, in the sub 18 lampshades that Krillin had no business getting hurt by one and it's a great shame for Krillin.

Gohan specifically tells Goku not to hold back. If he's above SSJ3 Gotenks level that's a pretty dangerous thing to ask.

When has Goku gone with someone's request to use his full power? He told Frost that was going all out and he went Super Saiyan. Even going as far back as the 22nd World Martial Arts Tournament, Krillin told Goku not to hold back, Goku said 'of course' and he held back since he would have killed Krillin going at full power.

[TheMikado]

I'm just telling you what was said, not trying to explain it away.

[HeroR]

I'm just telling you what was said, not trying to explain it away.

This is also the same show that Krillin told Goku to punch him in the face at full power.

[LowRyder2005]

This is why everyone should wait for subs before going off the rails.

If you read the official subs, it's clear that both Goku and Gohan are roleplaying and are basically dicking around.

They're not really "role-playing" if not for the fact that Goku is playing along with Gohan's Great Saiyaman act and holding some of his strength back to test him. It's not really a mock or a staged fight.

If we limited ourselves to before Goku turns Super Saiyan, there'd be still some big room for the argument that Goku's base is leaps and bounds above all of Gohan's forms.
But Goku's clearly going Super Saiyan as if to say that "the gloves are off", here. That he's going to fight at least half-seriously or whatever. This in turn most likely means that some form of Gohan needs to be stronger than Goku's base form.
Again, what should *emphasis on should* seal the deal, as in the case of Goku vs. Trunks, is that you can only theorize something like Goku went Super Saiyan without a single logical reason because he transformed and then immediately - and astronomically - suppressed himself. Wouldn't hold much water, right?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Gohan asked Piccolo to train him again and Gohan is shown training with Piccolo after the events of Frieza's revivial.

[Bullza]

I do sorta wonder if there was some retcon somewhere what with this upcoming saga too.

It'd be kinda odd to have Base Goku be thousands of times stronger than every one else minus Vegeta.

People were wondering what they were going to do to bring the others up like whether they'd train with Whis but maybe they just brought Goku back down instead so the others weren't useless.

Because to go from being that strong that SSJ3 Gotenks can't budge him to then being on par with Gohan or even Trunks who should never have been as strong as he was does make it seem like something might have been changed.

Maybe the manga really is closer to what Toriyama feels the power levels are at.

[HeroR]

This is why everyone should wait for subs before going off the rails.

If you read the official subs, it's clear that both Goku and Gohan are roleplaying and are basically dicking around.

They're not really "role-playing" if not for the fact that Goku is playing along with Gohan's Great Saiyaman act and holding some of his strength back to test him. It's not really a mock or a staged fight.

If we limited ourselves to before Goku turns Super Saiyan, there'd be still some big room for the argument that Goku's base is leaps and bounds above all of Gohan's forms.
But Goku's clearly going Super Saiyan as if to say that "the gloves are off", here. That he's going to fight at least half-seriously or whatever. This in turn most likely means that some form of Gohan needs to be stronger than Goku's base form.
Again, what should *emphasis on should* seal the deal, as in the case of Goku vs. Trunks, is that you can only theorize something like Goku went Super Saiyan without a single logical reason because he transformed and then immediately - and astronomically - suppressed himself. Wouldn't hold much water, right?

It is role-playing since Gohan is calling Goku by name and playing up the Great Saiyaman. Goku gets into it and tells Gohan to go out before transforming and calls Gohan the Great Saiyaman. Nothing about the fight was serious. The gloves come off in a play fight.

Goku went Super Saiyan against Trunks so Trunks can compare his power to Black. Goku went Super Saiyan against Gohan because he got into the play fight. We know that Goku can and will supressed himself even when he's transformed.

[Cetra]

So I guess this thread can be closed now. With February we have a character in the show whose power is Maximum.

[Marlowe89]

So it's as I've said all along - either the two base interpretation holds true after all or Goku isn't really a God tier fighter until triggering Super Saiyan Blue. Several things have already suggested or hinted at this if you ask me, but now we can definitely say one or the other has been confirmed with this episode.

[LowRyder2005]

Gohan asked Piccolo to train him again and Gohan is shown training with Piccolo after the events of Frieza's revivial.

I could see someone going for the "post-training Gohan <= Chou Gohan <= post-God training base Goku/ Vegeta" route.
It could possibly be disproved if, next time, we see Gohan using his Chou form again as a superior power-up to Super Saiyan 1/2.

However, if Super Saiyan = X times Chou form, it wouldn't really explain why Gohan used his Chou and not his Super Saiyan form against Beerus in battle of Gods. He could easily transform when it was needed for the ritual, after all. A clever retort could be that Beerus had knocked him out too soon, I guess? I still think it'd be even more confusing if his Chou became the weaker form because of being his regular base.

@HeroR: "Roleplaying" as in "Goku is acting as if Gohan is (not) the Great Saiyaman" is accurate; "roleplaying" as in "Goku goes Super Saiyan but is using 1/10000000000 of his strength" is a whole 'nother thing and as far as I'm concerned an extremely forced account for the events ep. 75 showed us.

[Marlowe89]

Also, I'm inclined say that Gohan's power is likely closer to his "Ultimate" self now than he was in Resurrection F, which for all intents and purposes portrayed him to be in a very rusty state of strength.