Is filler canon(ical)?

[ABED]

You hit the nail right on the head, Kunzait_83. Super had quite a few thing wrong, but what it has down right is let "Battle Powers" take a seat to allow other characters into the spotlight. I love that Master Roshi is becoming a prominent fighter again. The new generation of Dragon Ball fans need to be reminded of just what a great fighter is is/was, and what he can bring to the table other than the "pervy old man" gimmick. He did absolutely nothing of any importance after the King Piccolo arc, even in the filler of DB or Z. Yamcha at least had that bone throne towards him in Z, so I'm glad that one of the original characters form the old-school era of Dragon Ball is returning to prominence. He fucking deserves his spot among the top 10 strongest warrior that the universe has to offer. The old bastard deserves it. Same deal with Tien, Krillin, 17 and 18. Those guy deserves their moment in the sun as supposed to it being a Saiyan heavy party.

So to give a character a spotlight, all logic needs to be thrown out the window? Muten Roshi may not be as powerful in comparison as he once was, but his usefulness doesn't begin and end with how strong he is. He brings wisdom and experience to the table which are invaluable.

[Lord Beerus]

You hit the nail right on the head, Kunzait_83. Super had quite a few thing wrong, but what it has down right is let "Battle Powers" take a seat to allow other characters into the spotlight. I love that Master Roshi is becoming a prominent fighter again. The new generation of Dragon Ball fans need to be reminded of just what a great fighter is is/was, and what he can bring to the table other than the "pervy old man" gimmick. He did absolutely nothing of any importance after the King Piccolo arc, even in the filler of DB or Z. Yamcha at least had that bone throne towards him in Z, so I'm glad that one of the original characters form the old-school era of Dragon Ball is returning to prominence. He fucking deserves his spot among the top 10 strongest warrior that the universe has to offer. The old bastard deserves it. Same deal with Tien, Krillin, 17 and 18. Those guy deserves their moment in the sun as supposed to it being a Saiyan heavy party.

So to give a character a spotlight, all logic needs to be thrown out the window? Muten Roshi may not be as powerful in comparison as he once was, but his usefulness doesn't begin and end with how strong he is. He brings wisdom and experience to the table which are invaluable.

All logic is thrown out of the window in a quite a few of the fights in Dragon Ball. Any sort of wisdom and experience that Roshi could bring doesn't count for much considering that Goku, since his days under the tutelage of the Turtle Hermit, has been trained and been under the mentorship of deities and martial artists who are stronger, wiser and with more experience under than belt than Roshi has.

[floofychan333]

All the filler is canon for the anime obviously, its part of the show.

Seriously, this debate has always been dumb.

Everyone says the manga is more canon than the anime, though. So I assume the popular interpretation of the anime is that what's directly from the manga is canon, and anything extra could be consider non-canon?

[ABED]

You hit the nail right on the head, Kunzait_83. Super had quite a few thing wrong, but what it has down right is let "Battle Powers" take a seat to allow other characters into the spotlight. I love that Master Roshi is becoming a prominent fighter again. The new generation of Dragon Ball fans need to be reminded of just what a great fighter is is/was, and what he can bring to the table other than the "pervy old man" gimmick. He did absolutely nothing of any importance after the King Piccolo arc, even in the filler of DB or Z. Yamcha at least had that bone throne towards him in Z, so I'm glad that one of the original characters form the old-school era of Dragon Ball is returning to prominence. He fucking deserves his spot among the top 10 strongest warrior that the universe has to offer. The old bastard deserves it. Same deal with Tien, Krillin, 17 and 18. Those guy deserves their moment in the sun as supposed to it being a Saiyan heavy party.

So to give a character a spotlight, all logic needs to be thrown out the window? Muten Roshi may not be as powerful in comparison as he once was, but his usefulness doesn't begin and end with how strong he is. He brings wisdom and experience to the table which are invaluable.

All logic is thrown out of the window in a quite a few of the fights in Dragon Ball. Any sort of wisdom and experience that Roshi could bring doesn't count for much considering that Goku, since his days under the tutelage of the Turtle Hermit, has been trained and been under the mentorship of deities and martial artists who are stronger, wiser and with more experience under than belt than Roshi has.

And in those cases, it didn't make the fights better. Roshi's wisdom is not thrown out just because Goku trained under stronger deities. That's incredibly reductive. Sure, Goku trained under them, but he learned little more than a few techniques and how to get stronger.

If Roshi's power was dwarfed by the end of DB, then what sense does it make to have him active in fights against fighters that make Daimao look like an ant? That leap is too much.

[Kunzait_83]

You hit the nail right on the head, Kunzait_83. Super had quite a few thing wrong, but what it has down right is let "Battle Powers" take a seat to allow other characters into the spotlight.

Thank you but see, THIS is precisely what I was also arguing against in my prior post: Super HAS NOT let Battle Powers take a back seat, because my argument is that they were almost never at any point even IN the metaphorical "seat" in the first place. I'm saying that the entirety of the importance that Battle Powers have been given over the years is 100% utterly a fan inventions: and a well after the whole series had already ended English dub originated fan invention at that to boot.

The characters who were given a back seat in prominence within the latter half of the series were not at all a victim of some kind of non-existent slavish devotion to the idea of Battle Powers - which are and always have been a completely superfluous detail whose only purpose ever was to serve as a weakness for the main villains of a mere two out of roughly ten or so story arcs by virtue of being unreliable if not flat out WRONG nearly ALL of the time and the direct reason which helps get them killed by otherwise supposedly "weaker" enemies in the heroes, and which don't even get so much as a single mentioned anymore ever again the microsecond that the very last generic, scouter-wearing Freeza minion is slaughtered by Trunks - rather they were merely a victim of Toriyama's own ADD-esque loss of interest in them, and nothing more or less complex than that.

I fully believe with utterly zero reservations that had Toriyama simply WANTED or FELT LIKE having characters like Kuririn, #18, or even Yamucha be a more prominent fixture in major fights, then he simply would've just had them be, and would've felt or been COMPLETELY unencumbered by an utterly microscopic detail like BPs - a detail whose ENTIRE PURPOSE of existing in the first place was to be useless to the villains and something which gets them killed time and again by the heroes.

Don't misunderstand me: obviously PLENTY of fans out there, including myself absolutely, were NEVER bored with and never stopped caring about characters like 18, Tenshinhan, and hell even Yamucha (I've known my share of Yamucha fans over the years, myself included) and would've been totally happy seeing them remain relevant major characters, at least to SOME capacity. Certainly a feel that way up to a certain extent at least, albeit in my case with some reservations.

On the one hand I do feel a personal attachment to those characters and still find them very much interesting and full of potential story promise, thus my desire to continue following them in the A plotlines; on the other hand though there is also a part of me that also at the same time actually DOES genuinely like the "revolving door"-esque feel of supporting characters who are prominent and important/central to Goku's life from one progressive arc to the next (since real life in a lot of ways IS actually like that, thus it certainly does ring as strangely true to life in how large groups of people behave in long term friendships: people can't help but lose track and touch with one another after awhile).

I certainly don't think obviously that having a quasi-realistic ring of truth to how such large groups of friends actually work IRL was at all a reason for why Toriyama blew through different characters this way (though it certainly could've been a subconscious one), but it certainly was a (likely happily accidental) side-effect that has, from a certain angle, a genuinely interesting and noteworthy impact on the feel of the series' latter era that gives it more emotional weight and resonance: how many people's lives in their 30s still in any way resemble what their lives were like in their teens or even 20s? Life is an ever changing ebb and flow, and there's something to be said for Toriyama's (certainly short attention span-driven) unceremoniously tossing aside of certain formerly important fixture characters in favor of newer ones that always made DB feel weirdly more honest and true to human interaction than just about ALL of its lesser wannabes (including a certain pirate-themed one that I'll refrain from delving into in this thread),

Still though even with that said, I do still and have always liked a lot of these discarded characters just as much as many other fans do, and in many cases (Tenshinhan probably being the real big patron saint example among them) felt like they'd yet to exhaust all of the story/character dynamic possibilities (to varying degrees mind) before being put to bed. That being said though, tis MUCH better ultimately to be left still wanting more than be left thinking "fucking Christ enough of these people already". But I think that for certain characters, DB left more than ample enough wiggle room for some kind of happy middle ground to be taken; particularly if you're going to do the ill-advised and totally unnecessary thing and try continue the story from where the manga left off this far down the road and late into the game (an unwise and probably futile goal, but such is the somewhat toxic nature of nostalgia-fueled and thoroughly needless/pointless revivals like Super).

So as much as I'm kinda against the very nature of something as blatantly needless and superfluous corporate product like Super even existing at all (shy of Toriyama being genuinely inspired by some REALLY cool idea that's fresh enough to make him flat out actually hunker down and do a proper new manga himself without any needless middle men involved: which after 11 consecutive straight years of largely uninterrupted weekly content and burning through damn near close to every Wuxia trope and tic there was at the time to burn through that could fit into his style and creative framework, I'd say this is HIGHLY unlikely to ever happen and rightly so), if you MUST have it happen against all better judgement, then bringing back into prominence classic characters from the series' earlier eras and at least ATTEMPTING to exploit some of that untapped potential they were left off with feels certainly the smart move to go.

I love that Master Roshi is becoming a prominent fighter again. The new generation of Dragon Ball fans need to be reminded of just what a great fighter is/was, and what he can bring to the table other than the "pervy old man" gimmick. He did absolutely nothing of any importance after the King Piccolo arc, even in the filler of DB or Z. Yamcha at least had that bone throne towards him in Z, so I'm glad that one of the original characters form the old-school era of Dragon Ball is returning to prominence.

A few things here regarding Muten Roshi (a character who make no mistake, I DEARLY love and has always remained among my favorites in the whole series).

First, I actually think that of all the discarded, formerly prominent non-Saiya-jin or Namekian fighters, Muten Roshi was given what was by far and away the cleanest and most narratively proper and befitting conclusion. He was an aging warrior, certainly as a Sennin/Xian-type still plenty formidable, but recognizing the increasing superiority of the burgeoning next generation of fighters and seeing himself thus as redundant and in their way, choosing to honorably and graciously set aside any and all ego and step down as an active fighter.

With characters like Tenshinhan, Yamucha, Chaozu, 18, and to some extent even Kuririn (hell, even Yajirobe to a lesser degree), I'm certainly left feeling like they'd all to one extent or another been left with more than plenty of narrative vitality to continue being prominent fixtures alongside the other heavyweights. All these characters are, ultimately, consistently portrayed as the most talented and focused/driven martial artists in Dragon Ball's wacky little Wulin world, and all left still in their prime. While I also love characters like Trunks, Gohan, and even Vegeta (depending on the arc in question at least), I thought that the others lent a ton of stylistic variety (both in their fighting techniques as well as their genre archetypes) to things and plenty of room was left open to explore them more as warriors before casting them aside in favor of new and younger blood (which is what the Boo saga was, and probably should've stayed, all about).

Muten Roshi, for as much as I dearly love him in the period where he was still an active warrior, I felt had the best and most fitting possible conclusion and rationale to step aside and let the next wave of fighters take over. It not only felt exactly right, it lent him even MORE depth as a character and made him even more likable. The problem was NEVER that aspect (the "accept one's retirement graciously and with class and dignity" aspect) of his exit as a major focal character: the problem was more what was then done with him AFTERWARD as a supporting figure.

You're exactly right about the constant, never ending torrent of pervy old man gags. Not only did they quickly grow unbearably tiresome and one note, they made his presence feel more pointless than it should've, diluted him as a character, and frankly the jokes themselves, with their consistent abundance, grew steadily creepy and borderline misogynistic (however purely unintentionally).

Contrary to what you state here however, I must disagree in that I find that the anime (for all the constant more deluge of dirty old man jokes it also tacks on to wha tare already too many) also DOES give him some more notable moments that demonstrate how he SHOULD'VE been used as a character instead as a pure source/butt of bad sex jokes. Namely as a source of advice and as a source of martial arts-related exposition.

A perfect example of what I'm talking about (at least in the Japanese version, lord knows what the dub does with it) is a scene in the Cell games where Bulma arrives as the Kame House to watch the televised broadcast of the tournament's battles. She tells Roshi flat out that she values his expertise as a retired warrior and was hoping he'd be better able to fill her in on the details of what is happening in each fight. Which he then more than effectively does.

There are other such scenes, scattered throughout the entirety of the original anime version of Z (albeit alongside a fuckton of tiresome sex jokes with him as well), and moments like THOSE should've been the new post-retirement focal point of the character: as a source of wisdom, experience, and advice for the current gen of fighters. These moments should've been much, much more numerous (in both the manga and anime) and should've taken the place of at least 60/70% (at minimum) of the sex jokes (which is, like it or not, an aspect of the character that I think should remain, just in a GREATLY reduced capacity).

In this way you retain the integrity of his (impeccably executed) conclusion as an active fighter while at the same time still giving him a valid and necessary/useful purpose within the story.

STILL, all that having been said... I won't deny that seeing him say "to hell with retirement" and step back into the role as an active warrior in Super remains IMMENSELY fun and satisfying to watch. If for no other reason than Super has SO very, stupidly little else to recommend it, so bereft of genuine reasons to even care about and acknowledge its existence. In a barren wasteland of quality like Super, it remains one of its few genuine positive aspects to watch Roshi lay thorough and utter waste to random Freeza grunts, thus demonstrating that sometimes it ain't the raw power and youthful vitality that matters more, but the technique, the mastery, and the mileage. It helps also in this regard that not only is Roshi actively returned on the battlefield, but his fight scenes also still remain (as per the original series) some of the best choreographed and executed of the lot (ditto Tenshinhan and Piccolo for that matter).

Same deal with Tien, Krillin, 17 and 18. Those guy deserves their moment in the sun as supposed to it being a Saiyan heavy party.

While on the topic of the human fighters and the paradigm of when/how much they should've been used and when was the best time to retire them away from the spotlight: I think that the more I think back on it, I'm actually LARGELY ok with their degree of use as fighters from arc to arc, save ONE notable exception that I think is the real sore spot that makes so many fans (including myself to a degree) feel like they were put out to pasture a bit too prematurely: the Jinzoningen/Cell arc.

Obviously we all tend to feel that the human characters were well developed and utilized as warriors throughout the arcs that comprise original DB. With Z I find that they're also used well early on: in the Saiya-jin arc they're ruthlessly cut down by Nappa, which is one of several major factors that lends both that arc and the Freeza arc after it the sense of nihilistic hopelessness and the characters all being in WAY over their heads that permeates the first half of Z and gives those stories a lot of their power. But even then, even when used as sacrificial lambs to the plot, they're STILL within each of their fights given a moment or two to shine and show how much they're grown and improved as warriors (thus giving their deaths that much extra oomph: even with all their growth and development as fighters, its all STILL not enough against even the lesser of the two Saiya-jin warriors).

In the Freeza arc the whole premise of the plot necessitates that they sort of have to remain dead to act as the primary motivation for the surviving fighters. And within that arc, Kuririn is given what is by far one of his all time greatest periods to shine, as not just a clever, intelligent, and inventive fighter, but also as a surprisingly confident and credible leader. He does eventually end up biting it, but only at the VERY tail most end, and for what all of us tend to agree is in service to a very crucial story development.

Then the human fighters are all revived, and up to this point we're largely still good with them. THEN comes the Jinzoningen/Cell arc, and that's where their collective roles are reduced at a point in the story that I think is still FAR too premature. Especially after all the hellishness that the characters had gone through to revive them from death; their reduction in importance in the Cell arc thus dilutes much of the power of the previous two story arc, which made so much of their deaths and resurrections.

There's still a LOT to like and recommend about the Cell arc, so ideally I'd prefer if tweaks were made to the arc to improve and retain its already held strengths (primarily of which are great new and instantly classic/iconic characters like Mirai Trunks and Mr. Satan). One of those tweaks I would make is making this arc be the final arc that characters like Tenshinhan, Yamucha, Kuririn, and even Chaozu, get to shine in the splotlight alongside Goku, Piccolo, Gohan, and Vegeta. Give them all each one significant fight or two apiece, have more powerful character moments like Tenshinhan's (justified) bitterness and animosity towards Vegeta's continued presence, or more development with the whole Yamucha/Vegeta/Bulma triangle (I know that Toriyama doesn't do romance, but you'd think one good hateful, vitriolic throwdown between Yamucha and Vegeta would be appropriate) and Kuririn showing for one final arc the moral strength and courageous leadership he showed in the Freeza arc. Etc and so on.

In the anime filler you do get a BIT more scraps thrown their way, all of which feel so necessary and needed they should've all been in the manga. That final helping hand they all lend to Gohan in his final beam struggle against Cell (complete with each of them getting touching and poignant inner monologues on their decades-spanning relationships with Goku/Gohan/the Son family and how its profoundly changed each of their lives forever) being easily the best of them all by far. Had they had bigger roles the rest of the arc prior, this moment would've felt EXTREMELY fitting and satisfying as their grand finale as key characters throughout the whole series prior before they bow out.

I think that if the Cell arc featured the human Z Warriors prominently as their final hurrah before the Boo arc moved on (via time skip) to introducing the idea of the old cast passing the torch down to their children, almost no one would complain or feel that that side of the cast was shortchanged. And the one major change I'd make to the Boo arc is it sticking the landing on that notion of "the next generation takes center stage" rather than drag Goku back into the focal spotlight at the almost literal 11th hour (I'm all for keeping him as a key supporting character/source of advice, even one in an active combat role).

But that's just me.

[ABED]

Except that this is not strictly true. There was a constant progression of powers and while it wasn't this strict numerical concept, the idea that the characters get stronger and some get left behind. You act as though committing to the logic of the world is a hindrance. The writer(s) simply need to find creative ways to use the physically weaker characters. You bring up Kuririn in the Freeza arc and I agree, and that is in large part because the story wasn't simply about being stronger. There was the quest for the Dragon Balls which lends itself to well to using the B-Team.

[Gog]

Depends there is no defined canon in dragon ball. So honestly anything and everything is freegame.

[Zephyr]

Then the human fighters are all revived, and up to this point we're largely still good with them. THEN comes the Jinzoningen/Cell arc, and that's where their collective roles are reduced at a point in the story that I think is still FAR too premature. Especially after all the hellishness that the characters had gone through to revive them from death; their reduction in importance in the Cell arc thus dilutes much of the power of the previous two story arc, which made so much of their deaths and resurrections.

On top of all of that, they're all supposed to die again in the coming battle. They spend three years training hard for this fight. I think it would have done the arc and the characters wonders to allow them to demonstrably stick it to "fate", and stay alive through their own hard work, rather than just get lucky that the Saiyans and Piccolo were around.

[ABED]

Canon is often used in reference to Sherlock Holmes stories, but seeing as how Doyle never used the term, why do people keep thinking it needs to be explicitly stated what canon is?

[Kendamu]

And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.

A lot of the "math" I'm referring to is fanmade. However, the way characters got left behind in the latter arcs of Z ended up being accidentally supportive of the "math." By allowing someone like Kamesen'nin to fight Freeza soldiers when he was already a nobody by the time Raditz showed up or by allowing SS1 Vegeta to do better against Beerus than SS3 Son Goku, it totally disrupted that standard.

I refer to it as "math" because of how fans treat strength as pure power output and nothing else.

But it wasn't entertaining since there was no logic to it. Piccolo could've defeated Freeza's entire army by himself. The stretch in logic was so egregious that there wasn't even fridge logic.

While strict numerical adherence to power levels is ridiculous, the writers should pay attention to at least vague notions of power.

There is logic to it, though.

The first bit of logic is thst the gaps in everyone's abilities has been closed a bit. Just take thst power level chart and literally squeeze everyone closer together. That's how the Freeza Army fight worked.

The second bit of logic is that "heart" or "spirit" is a greater source of strength than pure power output. This is how Power of Love Vegeta did better than SS3 Son Goku. It's also how Son Goku kept up with Beerus after losing the God form (in addition to absorbing the God power). It's like Shonen 101.

The third bit is my own thing, but all the little bits throughout the original series about better conditioning, more precise movement in fighting technique, using power in concentrated explosive bursts, mastering existing transformations instead of coming up with new ones, some transformations or techniques being too stressful on the body to utilize realistically, etc. are very important factors. The "math" being disregarded actually makes sense because all of these factors become relevant again.

Also, just going by my own experience, there are some days I can totally win against higher ranked opponents in my martial arts classes. Other days, I might get beat by someone lower ranked than me. The belts are just a general guideline. Same should go for the martial artists of Dragon Ball. Otherwise it gets super boring because everyone's in this neat rank and file in terms of power.

[ABED]

The gap got bigger over time.

Also, just going by my own experience, there are some days I can totally win against higher ranked opponents in my martial arts classes.

We're not talking about normal humans here. We're talking about a gap between people who can blow up a mountain vs. characters that can blow up a solar system. You can't apply real world logic to this world. The gap between Piccolo and the cyborgs at the beginning of the Cell arc was far smaller than that between the Saiyans and humans during the Buu arc, and Piccolo got trounced by 17 in one punch to the gut.. The belt ranking in martial arts isn't just a measure of ability, it's a function of experience. A yellow belt could conceivably beat up a blue belt or even a black belt, but just hasn't yet taken the tests yet. That's not the same thing as fighting in the DB universe at all.

It's also how Son Goku kept up with Beerus after losing the God form (in addition to absorbing the God power). It's like Shonen 101.

It was stated that Goku absorbed some of his SSG power, but even then he wasn't able to keep up with Beerus. He lost in decisive fashion.

[In Brightest Day]

That one scene in GT where Ledgic showed up is canon though I'm sure.

[Wezenheim]

So as much as I'm kinda against the very nature of something as blatantly needless and superfluous corporate product like Super even existing at all (shy of Toriyama being genuinely inspired by some REALLY cool idea that's fresh enough to make him flat out actually hunker down and do a proper new manga himself without any needless middle men involved: which after 11 consecutive straight years of largely uninterrupted weekly content and burning through damn near close to every Wuxia trope and tic there was at the time to burn through that could fit into his style and creative framework, I'd say this is HIGHLY unlikely to ever happen and rightly so), if you MUST have it happen against all better judgement, then bringing back into prominence classic characters from the series' earlier eras and at least ATTEMPTING to exploit some of that untapped potential they were left off with feels certainly the smart move to go.

Toriyama's involvement as far as Super goes is simultaneously one of its most frustrating and most amusing aspects to me. It's frustrating partially of course because of that middle man factor that you mentioned, and because there's no telling how much better/worse these stories would be if Toriyama was actually penning them. It's always an extremely tricky and slippery slope when you have a team of people with different thoughts and ideas who have to interpret pre-existing characters and work off of an outline. Super's lack of consistency as far as the characters are concerned is extremely disappointing, especially after Toriyama actually put forth some really interesting ideas in Battle of Gods, and I really wish we could've seen more of that. Super occasionally does some interesting things with the characters, but not nearly as much as I'd like and that's a shame.

I do very much get a kick out of Toriyama still finding ways of amusing himself by twisting and perverting "suggestions" and popular demands sent his way though. There's a certain charm to picturing Toriyama sitting down with the ideas sent his way and saying: "Well sure, I can do that. But you probably won't like it." Whether it be the controversial yet still very much surprisingly melancholy for modern Toriyama ending for the Future Trunks arc or the designs of certain characters in the upcoming tournament arc, he still finds ways to play around and surprise people. That hardly erases all or even most of Super's sins, but it's something and one of the few benefits of tackling another series this late in the game. Granted, that's kinda how Toriyama has always operated, but it's pretty interesting that he has so much more material to work with. I wish the series was handled better, but alas.

Onto the topic at hand. I care very little for the canonicity debate, but I guess I simply separate the manga and the television series into their own continuities since they are different products. So by my logic, I guess I'd say that the "filler" is canon. For the anime.

[Anonymous Friend]

Topic: If you read the books and watch the shows and movies, and never discuss anything with anyone else ever, feel free to decide which contradictory things really happen or where they would fit in. If you decide to discuss things with other fans, understand that for a lot of them, there's a semi-standard for determining actual events and the order in which they occur.

Determining canonicity for most works comes in tiers. At the top, there's the original work and any official works that directly follow it. In the case of Dragon Ball, you have things written by Toriyama for the manga. Below that you have the derivative works based of the original, like the anime. And below that, derivative works based of the anime, like TV specials and movies. And even further down, more derivatives like OVAs, Plan to Eradicate the (Super) Saiyans and the Jump crossovers and specials.

If gets complicated when a property justs through multiple media and creators. Buffy the Vampire Slayer has a movie, television series, video games, and a continuation through comic book. I'm pretty such that the comics, both of the main show and its spin off, Angel, are canonical with the TV series, but am unsure how much of the movie than spawned them are canonical with the rest of the franchise. And I'm even less sure how much the video game is related as I've never played it.

Most just agree that as all long as the lower tiered stuff doesn't contradict the higher tier, it's all good (You may even encounter something where, like in Dragonball Z, a previous anime only storyline/plot: Movie 1 continuation through series filler featuring Garlic, Jr.). The best case scenario is to have a creator who tells you what's what. Worst case is a manga writer of a long running series that has been adapted to a parallel anime, who writes something that is contrary to a anime only event or detail. Closest thing that I can think of is what happened to FullMetal Alchemist. But that resulted in the best possible resolution with the creation of Brotherhood (which reminds me that I need to actually finish Brotherhood). Worst outcome would be something like the Star Wars franchise, where first Lucas himself de-canonized a chunk of the Expanded Universe with the Prequel Trilogy and various animated series and video games that have followed. And from what I hear, Disney de-canonized every that's not the Original Trilogy or Prequel Trilogy.

And now ...

Power Levels: Humans have been ranking things forever. And when two things competed, gave you a decent indication of if it was going to be a close matchup or if one side was heavily favored. Some disregard that sort of thing and some like to look at the data and analyze it.

Whether you stated with a young girl shooting a little boy in the face, or the Arrival of Raditz, the series kind of follows a pattern. It does change of up here and there. There are very few close matchups compared to the complete outclassings. Close matchups are generally saved for end of arcs/tournaments. It was generally resolved by very drastic and dramatic technique use, or a almost Deus Ex Machina rise of power prior to the final confrontation or during the fight where a complete outclassing was occurring. Very rarely in the series in any threat defeated by out thinking. In fact, never has a final enemy been defeated that way. Even strategy for defeating Buu boiled down to "Let's hit him with a very powerful attack". Even if we get rid of the numbers, the stats are still there and need to be followed.

Internal show logic says that SSJ is stronger than fully powered Freeza, who himself should be leagues above all of his underlings in his lowest powered form. Freeza was manhandled by two SSJ, who were manhandled by Androids, who were manhandled by Cell, who was defeated by a SSJ2. At this point, even if Gohan completely slacks off, our namekkian should have no trouble dealing with Freeza. Battle powers have shown that when there is a significant difference, the lower will have no effect on the higher. In Resurrection F, it seemed like everyone was more concerned about a one-on-one confrontation with Freeza, than about the possibility of him just blowing up the planet or his men slipping past them and causing trouble. Plus, at the very least, Piccolo should have been easily able to handle Freeza. Sure, there's the Gold form to consider, but this is before that's even discovered.

Super is doing what GT tried to do. Give characters a physical struggle to overcome, without it becoming the constant power flipflopping that occurred in the Android and Buy sagas. I think what they should have done was allow everyone we wanted to keep relevant learn a kaioken style power boost, that has some limitations that needed to be overcome. Then make all future opponents have special abilities that needed more brain over brawning, but with still some brawning.

[ABED]

If gets complicated when a property justs through multiple media and creators. Buffy the Vampire Slayer has a movie, television series, video games, and a continuation through comic book. I'm pretty such that the comics, both of the main show and its spin off, Angel, are canonical with the TV series, but am unsure how much of the movie than spawned them are canonical with the rest of the franchise. And I'm even less sure how much the video game is related as I've never played it.

The Buffy movie isn't canon to the TV series. For one, in the movie, Buffy is a senior in high school. The TV show begins when she's a high school sophomore. The slayer and watcher lore is completely different. The vampires don't turn to dust. There was a comic that was produced based on Joss's original Buffy script which makes a few changes to it to bring it more in line with the TV show. Joss has said that he would consider that more or less canon. Most of the comics are canon to the TV show, hence why they are broken down into seasons. I'm not sure about the video games though.

The way I think of canon is each media has its own canon. The DB manga has its canon and the anime has its own.

From what I can tell, canon first became a thing for Sherlock Holmes. It makes sense as Sherlock is the most adapted character in fiction. When talking about canon, it's referring to the original stories by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. However, I would say things like the BBC series "Sherlock" has its own canon.

[ShadowBardock89]

If filler were truly counted as canon, then we could have seen Pikkon show up during the Tournament arc or this next Tournament.
However, the argument of "He's already dead, so it disqualifies him" is kind of hard to refute. I mean, if it wasn't, I would suspect that because everything is on the line that Beerus would try to recruit Frieza, Cell, or Dabura while were at it.

[Anonymous Friend]

If gets complicated when a property justs through multiple media and creators. Buffy the Vampire Slayer has a movie, television series, video games, and a continuation through comic book. I'm pretty such that the comics, both of the main show and its spin off, Angel, are canonical with the TV series, but am unsure how much of the movie than spawned them are canonical with the rest of the franchise. And I'm even less sure how much the video game is related as I've never played it.

The Buffy movie isn't canon to the TV series. For one, in the movie, Buffy is a senior in high school. The TV show begins when she's a high school sophomore. The slayer and watcher lore is completely different. The vampires don't turn to dust. There was a comic that was produced based on Joss's original Buffy script which makes a few changes to it to bring it more in line with the TV show. Joss has said that he would consider that more or less canon. Most of the comics are canon to the TV show, hence why they are broken down into seasons. I'm not sure about the video games though.

The way I think of canon is each media has its own canon. The DB manga has its canon and the anime has its own.

From what I can tell, canon first became a thing for Sherlock Holmes. It makes sense as Sherlock is the most adapted character in fiction. When talking about canon, it's referring to the original stories by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. However, I would say things like the BBC series "Sherlock" has its own canon.

With a property with multiple adaptations, yes, each iteration has it's own canon. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles has four TV series and two movies series, not to mention the original comic series and the ones based off of the various TV series. No ones going to be arguing events between these different interactions. DragonBall only has the manga and the anime, which is entirely based off it.

[OhHiRenan]

Sure, Piccolo "could have" defeated all of Freeza's forces, if that were his objective. However, Dragon Team's motive as a unit was to stall for time until Goku & Vegeta arrived. They stretched the battle with the soldiers out because they were attempting to avoid Freeza's direct involvement. The justification was provided through the characters. In any case, holding back & matching blows with weaker individuals is hardly "math-defying", if Dragon Ball was attempting such a thing. Freeza's forces are repeatedly acknowledged as low quality with the leader himself noticing that the opposition pulled their punches.

Even then, stalling wouldn't be any problem for him alone. These are peons and Piccolo was FAR stronger than Freeza back in DBZ. There's no logic to it. It doesn't matter if they are holding back. It would take zero effort on Piccolo's part.

Of course there's logic to it, stalling for time is the logic. I'm sure Piccolo could have stalled by himself, but if you're talking about logic here then you need to ask "why would Piccolo stall by himself?"

Gohan, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn are all the type of person to want to be present in this scenario. They wouldn't just let Piccolo stall by himself even if he could.

Roshi is another debate in itself and I'm not going to touch on Jaco, but this is all important stuff to consider and think about.

[ABED]

They wouldn't just let Piccolo stall by himself even if he could.

He could. None of those fighters should logically be in his lead. The strongest warrior they have other than Freeza is touted as strong as Zarbon and Dodoria.

but if you're talking about logic here then you need to ask "why would Piccolo stall by himself?"

You're splitting hairs. Yes, I could've posed the question that way, the point remains the same. You don't have to be a stickler for battle powers to see how the scenario makes no sense.

[OhHiRenan]

You're splitting hairs.

And you aren't?

Yes, I could've posed the question that way, the point remains the same. You don't have to be a stickler for battle powers to see how the scenario makes no sense.

Here's the thing, though, and do follow me here, it does make sense. It makes a great deal of sense, actually. Freeza's forces invaded and so Gohan, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Roshi, and Jaco showed up to stop them from doing any serious damage and to stall for Goku and Vegeta. Complaining that Piccolo could have taken them all on and because of that the scenario somehow makes no sense isn't a conversation, it's just you complaining about something that blatantly makes sense and has logic to it.

Yeah, Piccolo could have taken them all on by himself but he wasn't there by himself. That's all there is to it.