Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

Trunks was also not that strong before he got his own Super Saiyan form. Nothing in the anime showed Trunks being equal to Goku who easily caught his fists when they were both Super Saiyan 2s. And you're using a play sparring match with Goku and Gohan to say that they were even.

I'm going to get a little nitpickier than I'd like with this, but since the Goku vs. Trunks into Goku vs. Black fights were exactly what locked me into thinking there was a retcon:

You could easily interpret the Trunks sparring match as Goku going light in all three forms, just using them to goad Trunks into further transformations. In fact, that's how I viewed it when I first saw it.

Very shortly afterward, though, while watching Goku fight Black as a Super Saiyan 2, Trunks says, "Why isn't Goku going all out? He displayed more power against me." I take this to mean Super Saiyan 3, but either way, Trunks is stating in no uncertain terms that at some point during their sparring match, Goku displayed more power than he's currently using as a Super Saiyan 2 against Black.

So if Goku's Super Saiyan forms really are around the level Super Saiyan God was in its introductory arc:

Goku would have to be screwing around with Trunks (fine), but then also ... screwing around with Black? While going Super Saiyan 2 for some reason (and remaining weaker than he was by the end of his sparring match with Trunks)? He just likes transforming visually against villains, but only using a thousandth of the power that particular form could have?

And then I was like, "Oh. Literally everything since the Universe 6 arc started makes more sense if the Super Saiyan levels are the same as they've always been." And since I think the intentional "two-base" theory is way too specific to go without mention, and since we haven't seen evidence of a super-strong base form since, my take is there was a retcon. Which, coincidentally, also matches the route Toyotaro explicitly chose to take in the manga for one reason or another.

[HeroR]

Trunks was also not that strong before he got his own Super Saiyan form. Nothing in the anime showed Trunks being equal to Goku who easily caught his fists when they were both Super Saiyan 2s. And you're using a play sparring match with Goku and Gohan to say that they were even.

I'm going to get a little nitpickier than I'd like with this, but since the Goku vs. Trunks into Goku vs. Black fights were exactly what locked me into thinking there was a retcon:

You could easily interpret the Trunks sparring match as Goku going light in all three forms, just using them to goad Trunks into further transformations. In fact, that's how I viewed it when I first saw it.

Very shortly afterward, though, while watching Goku fight Black as a Super Saiyan 2, Trunks says, "Why isn't Goku going all out? He displayed more power against me." I take this to mean Super Saiyan 3, but either way, Trunks is stating in no uncertain terms that at some point during their sparring match, Goku displayed more power than he's currently using as a Super Saiyan 2 against Black.

So if Goku's Super Saiyan forms really are around the level Super Saiyan God was in its introductory arc:

Goku would have to be screwing around with Trunks (fine), but then also ... screwing around with Black? While going Super Saiyan 2 for some reason (and remaining weaker than he was by the end of his sparring match with Trunks)? He just likes transforming visually against villains, but only using a thousandth of the power that particular form could have?

And then I was like, "Oh. Literally everything since the Universe 6 arc started makes more sense if the Super Saiyan levels are the same as they've always been." And since I think the intentional "two-base" theory is way too specific to go without mention, and since we haven't seen evidence of a super-strong base form since, my take is there was a retcon. Which, coincidentally, also matches the route Toyotaro explicitly chose to take in the manga for one reason or another.

In both the manga and anime, Goku used his Super Saiyan forms to see how his power related to Black, not how his power related to Trunks. The manga made Trunks more powerful, while the anime just had Trunks punched Goku without doing any damaged and Goku easily caught his attack.

We know that Trunks was referring to Super Saiyan 3 since we see a flashback of Super Saiyan 3 when Trunks says this. During his sparring match with Vegeta, Trunks insisted that Vegeta used his full power and used Super Saiyan 3. So Trunks believed that Super Saiyan 3 was Goku and Vegeta's peak power. Keep in mind too that Trunks also thinks that Vegeta and Goku can drastically raised their power in their Super Saiyan forms since that is what Goku did when he mastered Super Saiyan. When he powered up against Cell, everyone was shocked by the amount of power he had and was holding back.

We know Goku was screwing around with Black. Both Vegeta and Trunks took note of this, along with Black. And again, Trunks was specifically referring to Super Saiyan 3, hence the flashback to Super Saiyan 3 Goku. To Trunks, Goku is literally holding back an entire Super Saiyan form. We also saw Black wiped out Trunks in all his forms, yet he was perfectly even with Goku and even took damaged. Granted, that was intentional on Black's part, but Trunks could only make Black laugh when he punched him in the stomach as a Super Saiyan and a weaker Black took out Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in a few hits after they met.

Also, Super Saiyan can't be always the same as it always been if there was a retcon, otherwise Piccolo should have easily been able to smash Frost. And again, that is assuming that Toriyama retcon most of Resurrection 'F', a movie he wrote, and told no one despite the movie being retold in the anime and him having time to tell Toei that he made this huge changed.

[Cipher]

We know Goku was screwing around with Black. Both Vegeta and Trunks took note of this, along with Black. And again, Trunks was specifically referring to Super Saiyan 3, hence the flashback to Super Saiyan 3 Goku. To Trunks, Goku is literally holding back an entire Super Saiyan form. We also saw Black wiped out Trunks in all his forms, yet he was perfectly even with Goku and even took damaged. Granted, that was intentional on Black's part, but Trunks could only make Black laugh when he punched him in the stomach as a Super Saiyan and a weaker Black took out Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in a few hits after they met.

Right, so Black was definitely holding back against Goku. Goku even calls him out on it. Dude's just warming up. Totally given.

But I just want to make sure:

Your take is that all of Goku's Super Saiyan forms are at least around (the original) Super Saiyan God level, that he held back against Trunks for demonstration purposes (I don't really have a problem with that), but then that he similarly held back against Black, despite turning Super Saiyan 2? He went Super Saiyan 2 visually, but decided to output a fraction of the power he could have in base?

I just don't see the motivation for that. To me, that's a lot harder to justify than the retcon. That's about as much as I can say about it. : \

Also, Super Saiyan can't be always the same as it always been if there was a retcon, otherwise Piccolo should have easily been able to smash Frost.

There's a sizable gap between Super Saiyan Goku and Piccolo by the end of the Cell arc. The writing on all of that seems a little shaky with relative powers no matter how you approach it though; I'm sure no one at Toei cared. It can just play totally fine without a super-strong Goku, and Cabba makes a hell of a lot more sense that way, given that Goku and Vegeta aren't floored by the fact this Saiyan from Universe 6 is also unfathomably strong.

As for Toriyama's motivations, I'm not sure he was closely guarding a secret or anything, or even put much thought into it. If it turns out there was a change in approach, it could be as simple as him writing previous Super Saiyan forms into new outlines without regard for how different the strength should be coming off of "F". Someone like Toyotaro could catch the implication, whereas Toei was such a mess in terms of getting this series out that even if half the staff picked up on it, I'm not sure it would get to all the writers. I don't think they keep any kind of bible on hand for this sort of thing; they get Toriyama's outline and go at it, and then you have individual writers handling episodic scripts. Again, this is the show that wrote out an explanation for the Pilaf gang. And also wrote out the relevance of their subplot, for that matter. It doesn't feel like there's anyone steering the ship for at least the first thirty episodes of the show.

[Bullza]

Why are you assuming that the manga is more accurate to Toriyama's vision.

Well didn't Toyotaro say that he tries to keep as close to Toriyama's script as possible? If so then the script does include the reappearance of Super Saiyan God amongst other things.

Theres just a huge contrast with the story and the power levels in the anime. If Base Goku is supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God but then he can still get tens of times stronger by transforming then that's weird.

It makes the whole Battle of Gods story odd because he'd be a fraction of a 1% as strong as Beerus. Frost, Cabba and Magetta are all stronger than Super Saiyan God that logically makes little sense. Trunks being comparable to Goku makes no sense whatsoever.

Why is this assumption that Toriyama doesn't talk to Toei and he made this major retcon that changes the ending to BOG and the entire fight with Freeza, yet told no one about it.

But you could say that for the manga so why is that different? Why would Toyotaro, a super fan who knows that Base Goku is supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God going by his Resurrection F manga and who is supposed to be sticking to Toriyama's script just randomly make the characters much weaker than in the movies and the anime for the manga?

There is no basics that a major retcon happened and Toei didn't know about it.

Well we'll see, the upcoming arc should make it clear but I have a feeling that this episode is just the beginning of this retcon theory. It'd probably be for the best because everyone always said the manga made more sense.

I think if there were a retcon it was because Toriyama wanted to bring the other Super Saiyan forms back. Yeah after Battle of Gods he said Goku could still turn Super Saiyan but that was before he thought of Resurrection F. When that movie came out Super Saiyan Blue was simply his Super Saiyan now because he'd absorbed Super Saiyan God.

So when he started work on Super he realised he wanted the Super Saiyan forms back but it wouldn't make sense if Goku had absorbed the power of a God because he'd just be Blue.....and that's why the retcon called for Goku to have not absorbed the power of God so he could still turn into those regular Super Saiyan forms... probably.

[Vados_chan]

Goku wasn't even trying against Gohan, not sure that's so hard for people to comprehend.

[Simere]

Although, the water was supposed to amplify a person's power by 100X, which could explain why Base Copy-Vegeta was so strong. Real Vegeta could easily have been back to Buu Saga levels.

That would mean Goku is 100x stronger than real Vegeta, wouldn't it?

[DBZ Macky]

Although, the water was supposed to amplify a person's power by 100X, which could explain why Base Copy-Vegeta was so strong. Real Vegeta could easily have been back to Buu Saga levels.

That would mean Goku is 100x stronger than real Vegeta, wouldn't it?

That was just a rumour. It was explained in the show that it only absorbed others' powers and made clones of them, making them appear stronger.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'm going to be pissed if in the end it's just a retcon, they'd best give some explanation that fits the earlier arcs as well as the new ones.

[HeroR]

Why are you assuming that the manga is more accurate to Toriyama's vision.

Well didn't Toyotaro say that he tries to keep as close to Toriyama's script as possible? If so then the script does include the reappearance of Super Saiyan God amongst other things.

Theres just a huge contrast with the story and the power levels in the anime. If Base Goku is supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God but then he can still get tens of times stronger by transforming then that's weird.

It makes the whole Battle of Gods story odd because he'd be a fraction of a 1% as strong as Beerus. Frost, Cabba and Magetta are all stronger than Super Saiyan God that logically makes little sense. Trunks being comparable to Goku makes no sense whatsoever.

Why is this assumption that Toriyama doesn't talk to Toei and he made this major retcon that changes the ending to BOG and the entire fight with Freeza, yet told no one about it.

But you could say that for the manga so why is that different? Why would Toyotaro, a super fan who knows that Base Goku is supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God going by his Resurrection F manga and who is supposed to be sticking to Toriyama's script just randomly make the characters much weaker than in the movies and the anime for the manga?

There is no basics that a major retcon happened and Toei didn't know about it.

Well we'll see, the upcoming arc should make it clear but I have a feeling that this episode is just the beginning of this retcon theory. It'd probably be for the best because everyone always said the manga made more sense.

I think if there were a retcon it was because Toriyama wanted to bring the other Super Saiyan forms back. Yeah after Battle of Gods he said Goku could still turn Super Saiyan but that was before he thought of Resurrection F. When that movie came out Super Saiyan Blue was simply his Super Saiyan now because he'd absorbed Super Saiyan God.

So when he started work on Super he realised he wanted the Super Saiyan forms back but it wouldn't make sense if Goku had absorbed the power of a God because he'd just be Blue.....and that's why the retcon called for Goku to have not absorbed the power of God so he could still turn into those regular Super Saiyan forms... probably.

That isn't what he said, he said he tried to stay close to the basic outline, but it is extremely barebones and he has to fill in the details. Even then, Toriyama gave him free reign to take creative license. The only confirmed things that has been proven to be in the outline is what shared by both the anime and the manga, and the anime never even hinted that Goku could go Super Saiyan God. If they did, him showing off to Trunks would have been the perfect time.

That isn't weird, that is how Toriyama wrote it. That is how Resurrection 'F' was directed. Freeza in his first from outmatched Gohan, yet base from Goku manhandled Freeza. And Trunks isn't comparable, but we've been thought this, and why would it be odd that people from another universe could surpassed Super Saiyan God Goku? It's no more odd that Gero could invent androids that craps on Freeza, the original strongest being in the universe.

Toriyama told Toyotaro that he can take creative license and it was said that Toriyama only cares about gags. So, Toyotaro is taking creative license. Even more, we are assuming that Goku's base form is only as strong as it was before he absorbed god ki because he has Super Saiyan God. Yet, in the movie BOG, Goku went Super Saiyan God again briefly, and his Super Saiyan form kept the power of godhood. So Toyotaro could be using that interpretation as far as we know.

Honestly, the upcoming episode could easily prove that if Goku one-shots everyone in that forest using his base form. And who's 'everyone' that said the manga made more sense? Only a select group of fans said that and even the manga fans can't explain some of the stuff that happened in the last two chapters.

Resurrection 'F' never implied that Goku lost his golden Super Saiyan forms. Fans only believed that was the case because Goku called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan with god ki. It was called Super Saiyan with god ki even in the movie, it was never simply Super Saiyan.

[dbgtFO]

Resurrection 'F' never implied that Goku lost his golden Super Saiyan forms. Fans only believed that was the case because Goku called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan with god ki. It was called Super Saiyan with god ki even in the movie, it was never simply Super Saiyan.

Goku doesn't mention God ki at any point. Stick with the facts please.
The correct line is "The Super Saiyan of a Saiyan, that has the power of Super Saiyan God." ie. power of SSG in base form + SS = SSGSS, which lines up with all the promotional material at the time of RoF's release, that clarifies it slightly more. In any case that line logically tells us, that when he goes SS now, he goes SSGSS, because his base form = SSG, thus his base would need to not be SSG level for him to go normal SS.

[HeroR]

Resurrection 'F' never implied that Goku lost his golden Super Saiyan forms. Fans only believed that was the case because Goku called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan with god ki. It was called Super Saiyan with god ki even in the movie, it was never simply Super Saiyan.

Goku doesn't mention God ki at any point. Stick with the facts please.
The correct line is "The Super Saiyan of a Saiyan, that has the power of Super Saiyan God." ie. power of SSG in base form + SS = SSGSS, which lines up with all the promotional material at the time of RoF's release, that clarifies it slightly more. In any case that line logically tells us, that when he goes SS now, he goes SSGSS, because his base form = SSG, thus his base would need to not be SSG level for him to go normal SS.

That line doesn't necessarily means that since we know Goku's base doesn't have god ki. All Goku's line means is that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan with god ki. Also, in the movie BOG, Beerus aid that Goku lost little power after losing Super Saiyan God, and he was a golden Super Saiyan. He then briefly reverted back to Super Saiyan God to stop Beerus' last attack.

[LowRyder2005]

Well, if we wanted to nitpick as usual, we don't really know if the guys in the forest are as strong as the originals, at present; nor is it certain that we'll know. We'll see if Goku or Krillin will acknowledge their strength, in which case we'll have a positive answer, but I'm much more inclined to believe that the fight will be written like, y'know:

Part 1. Everyone attacks Goku and Krillin.
Part 2. Something really random happens, like Tambourine and Cell fighting on equal terms with Krillin (or maybe just Tambourine); headscratches ensue; Goku blitzes through everyone else in base, but still can't k.o anyone. Basically, everyone will have the same strength or be fodder regardless of their original power but they'll get to the heroes through their sheer numbers.
3. Then it's either a deus ex machina (the copies disappear!) or Goku turning Super Saiyan 1 to casually dispose of everyone (just to add some fuel the subplot of Krillin's feelings of inferiority).

I think the centerpiece right now to clarify things for most fans will still be Mr. Buu, as long as he we can gauge his strength properly compared to the base Saiyans in the tournament. With people of such varying strengths and TOEI's general m.o., I'd bet the forest fight will be simplified.

[HeroR]

Well, if we wanted to nitpick as usual, we don't really know if the guys in the forest are as strong as the originals, at present; nor is it certain that we'll know. We'll see if Goku or Krillin will acknowledge their strength, in which case we'll have a positive answer, but I'm much more inclined to believe that the fight will be written like, y'know:

Part 1. Everyone attacks Goku and Krillin.
Part 2. Something really random happens, like Tambourine and Cell fighting on equal terms with Krillin (or maybe just Tambourine); headscratches ensue; Goku blitzes through everyone else in base, but still can't k.o anyone. Basically, everyone will have the same strength or be fodder regardless of their original power but they'll get to the heroes through their sheer numbers.
3. Then it's either a deus ex machina (the copies disappear!) or Goku turning Super Saiyan 1 to casually dispose of everyone (just to add some fuel the subplot of Krillin's feelings of inferiority).

I think the centerpiece right now to clarify things for most fans will still be Mr. Buu, as long as he we can gauge his strength properly compared to the base Saiyans in the tournament. With people of such varying strengths and TOEI's general m.o., I'd bet the forest fight will be simplified.

Why would Mr. Buu of all people be the gauge?

And the show will most likely tell us if the illusions are stronger or weaker than their real counterparts, just like Goku confirmed that Hit was much stronger during their rematched. I don't think everyone will just scale to Krillin.

[DBZ Macky]

Because Mr. Boo's power is consistent. And you can't give the excuse of "He trained and became stronger than God Goku."
If Piccolo was able to become stronger than Chou Gohan, then why the hell didn't he just go into the goddamn chamber himself and took care of Boo?

There's still one issue with Boo though, we don't know if he's stronger or weaker than Boo arc SS2 Goku and Vegeta after splitting his power into half.
For all we know, current SS Goku could be stronger than Mr. Boo even if he's not as strong as God without Super Saiyan Blue.

[omaro34]

With this most recent episode 75 of Super, we see Krillin get hit by a bullet and his own wife #18 called him a weakling and couldn't believe that mere gun shots could hurt him. Krillin really is out of shape, and now that the realization that his family wants him to be stronger, he will improve. However, for the time being, there's no way that I will believe that mere gun shots could hurt Tenshinhan. Just knowing the character's work ethic and knowing his overall determination to improve at HIS OWN PACE, leads me to believe this. Hence I think Tien is stronger than Krillin currently, although that could change in the future.

[LowRyder2005]

Well, if we wanted to nitpick as usual, we don't really know if the guys in the forest are as strong as the originals, at present; nor is it certain that we'll know. We'll see if Goku or Krillin will acknowledge their strength, in which case we'll have a positive answer, but I'm much more inclined to believe that the fight will be written like, y'know:

Part 1. Everyone attacks Goku and Krillin.
Part 2. Something really random happens, like Tambourine and Cell fighting on equal terms with Krillin (or maybe just Tambourine); headscratches ensue; Goku blitzes through everyone else in base, but still can't k.o anyone. Basically, everyone will have the same strength or be fodder regardless of their original power but they'll get to the heroes through their sheer numbers.
3. Then it's either a deus ex machina (the copies disappear!) or Goku turning Super Saiyan 1 to casually dispose of everyone (just to add some fuel the subplot of Krillin's feelings of inferiority).

I think the centerpiece right now to clarify things for most fans will still be Mr. Buu, as long as he we can gauge his strength properly compared to the base Saiyans in the tournament. With people of such varying strengths and TOEI's general m.o., I'd bet the forest fight will be simplified.

Why would Mr. Buu of all people be the gauge?

And the show will most likely tell us if the illusions are stronger or weaker than their real counterparts, just like Goku confirmed that Hit was much stronger during their rematched. I don't think everyone will just scale to Krillin.

He's the only one most fans will assume never trains. In short, he would be seen as the same kind of guy who couldn't beat Kid Buu, a clear "SS2/SS3" tier back from Dragon Ball Z. If our favorite pink blob beats someone who Goku and Vegeta can't beat in their base form, or are forced to go Super Saiyan against, most people would reasonably conclude that base Goku and Vegeta aren't above SS3 Goku back from Z.
Actually, regarding the "only one", scratch that, #18 and #17 could fit the bill all the same (at least assuming that due to their bodies they can't become stronger or weaker, I guess)... but Buu's strength is subjected to almost no "ifs" and "buts" that I can think of.

Regarding the upcoming episode, eh, I have my fair share of doubts about that. It'd mean they'd need to animate something like Krillin or Goku blowing away Piccolo Daimao with a wave of their hand, then Goku focusing a little more to take on Buu - is it Super Buu or Kid Buu, by the way? Seemed too tall to be the pure form.
Knowing TOEI, I think it'll be most likely a repeat of the battle royal from Resurrection F: everyone tangles with everyone, then something abruptly ends the fight. I could be pleased if they went for the more orthodox path, anyway.

If Piccolo was able to become stronger than Chou Gohan, then why the hell didn't he just go into the goddamn chamber himself and took care of Boo?

Yeah, that's one of my biggest gripes as well. Those who contend that Piccolo became Chou Gohan/ God tier usually propose that "Piccolo needed a good sparring partner", but I still don't like the implication. I tend to believe that Piccolo hit a sort of plateau right before the Cell Games.

[DBZ Macky]

Regarding the upcoming episode, eh, I have my fair share of doubts about that. It'd mean they'd need to animate something like Krillin or Goku blowing away Piccolo Daimao with a wave of their hand, then Goku focusing a little more to take on Buu - is it Super Buu or Kid Buu, by the way? Seemed too tall to be the pure form.

It's definitely Super Buu. I think all of these villains are responsible for either directly or indirectly killing Krillin. Or just scaring the shit outta him in general.
Krillin never met Kid Buu... except that one time when Yamcha beat the shit outta that guy who gave Paikuuhan a good fight.

Also, INB4, Episode 76 ain't gonna prove jack. The villains' powers may differ from their actual counterparts, as someone already said.

[HeroR]

Why would Mr. Buu of all people be the gauge?

And the show will most likely tell us if the illusions are stronger or weaker than their real counterparts, just like Goku confirmed that Hit was much stronger during their rematched. I don't think everyone will just scale to Krillin.

He's the only one most fans will assume never trains. In short, he would be seen as the same kind of guy who couldn't beat Kid Buu, a clear "SS2/SS3" tier back from Dragon Ball Z. If our favorite pink blob beats someone who Goku and Vegeta can't beat in their base form, or are forced to go Super Saiyan against, most people would reasonably conclude that base Goku and Vegeta aren't above SS3 Goku back from Z.
Actually, regarding the "only one", scratch that, #18 and #17 could fit the bill all the same (at least assuming that due to their bodies they can't become stronger or weaker, I guess)... but Buu's strength is subjected to almost no "ifs" and "buts" that I can think of.

Regarding the upcoming episode, eh, I have my fair share of doubts about that. It'd mean they'd need to animate something like Krillin or Goku blowing away Piccolo Daimao with a wave of their hand, then Goku focusing a little more to take on Buu - is it Super Buu or Kid Buu, by the way? Seemed too tall to be the pure form.
Knowing TOEI, I think it'll be most likely a repeat of the battle royal from Resurrection F: everyone tangles with everyone, then something abruptly ends the fight. I could be pleased if they went for the more orthodox path, anyway.

If Piccolo was able to become stronger than Chou Gohan, then why the hell didn't he just go into the goddamn chamber himself and took care of Boo?

Yeah, that's one of my biggest gripes as well. Those who contend that Piccolo became Chou Gohan/ God tier usually propose that "Piccolo needed a good sparring partner", but I still don't like the implication. I tend to believe that Piccolo hit a sort of plateau right before the Cell Games.[/quote]

Looks like Super Buu to me, although the preview claimed it was Kid Buu. Plus, everyone turned giant at one point, so I don't see why the illusions would be weaker than their original counterparts. But we will see. Maybe they will be weak, but won't die.

I think if Piccolo got that strong, someone would have said something by now. Goku gave throw away lines when someone got stronger like Hit and even Vegeta before the Future Trunks Saga.

Regarding the upcoming episode, eh, I have my fair share of doubts about that. It'd mean they'd need to animate something like Krillin or Goku blowing away Piccolo Daimao with a wave of their hand, then Goku focusing a little more to take on Buu - is it Super Buu or Kid Buu, by the way? Seemed too tall to be the pure form.

It's definitely Super Buu. I think all of these villains are responsible for either directly or indirectly killing Krillin. Or just scaring the shit outta him in general.
Krillin never met Kid Buu... except that one time when Yamcha beat the shit outta that guy who gave Paikuuhan a good fight.

Also, INB4, Episode 76 ain't gonna prove jack. The villains' powers may differ from their actual counterparts, as someone already said.

Bold statement for an episode that hasn't even aired. And the preview before the Episode 75 aired said Kid Buu. Krillin also never met King Piccolo and he's there.

[ssbgoku]

I really really hope that these nightmares ghosts versions will have pl of real monsters, and I would love if current base goku is close or on par with super buu. It would add a lot more consistency to series. If it happen then retcon is obvious as day and here would be my list for just universe 7:

ss2 goku
ss2 gohan
ss goku
ss gohan
base goku
final form frieeza
rof ss2 gohan(if he could transform)
enraged fat buu
third form frieeza
rof ss gohan
current majin buu
current base gohan
rof second form frieeza
rof first form frieeza

It would make sense with base goku calling buu crazy strong while enraged(goku was in base as before u6). This base goku would be majin buu level or a bit above, same with final frieeza making big deal suprassing current majin buu without golden form. Current base goku/vegeta could be super buu tier.

Copy water arc and gag beerus against goku inserts ignored or treated as gags, while post ssg ss and base goku being temporary unstable ssb, once goku and vegeta obtained full control over ssb thei base and ss forms while still powered up dropped from god tier.

[Bullza]

That is how Resurrection 'F' was directed.

Yeah but that was then, before he started work on an ongoing series. He might have felt the need to change things so they were more suitable for a weekly set of stories.

So, Toyotaro is taking creative license.

But why would he do that in such a way? If Toriyama wrote the movies one way, Toyotaro is aware of it because he did the manga for the movie and the anime is sticking to the movies then why would Toyotaro decide to do something that different?

And Trunks isn't comparable, but we've been thought this, and why would it be odd that people from another universe could surpassed Super Saiyan God Goku? It's no more odd that Gero could invent androids that craps on Freeza, the original strongest being in the universe.

Trunks was absolutely comparable and he logically had no reason to be even close. Cabba is a youthful Saiyan who'd never heard of Super Saiyan yet is as strong Super Saiyan God that was always weird and it seemed a bit of reach that Frost who apparently couldn't have trained too much because he hadn't got used to his Final Form or Magetta whose part of a race that is supposed to have existed in Universe 7 are well above SSJ3 Vegito.

Yeah it was odd with the Androids too but they were able to absorb energy and stack into on their own or they had an infinite amount of energy. Frieza became much more powerful when he was given mechanical parts too.

Fans only believed that was the case because Goku called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan with god ki. It was called Super Saiyan with god ki even in the movie, it was never simply Super Saiyan.

All they said was that it was the "Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God". He'd apparently absorbed the power of God into his body in the previous movie and now when he turns Super Saiyan he's just Blue now.

Then the original Super Saiyan came back and that confused everyone. It might be that Toriyama retconned Goku so that he had no longer absorbed the power of God so he could bring those other forms back.