Does Broly even remember Goku as a baby?

[rereboy]

ADMIN NOTE ABOUT THIS THREAD:

This is a community member's post in our public forum. This forum thread is not an official "guide" on the larger Kanzenshuu website. This is simply one person's analysis. Furthermore, nothing in this post is about "mistranslations" -- people (one person?) on Reddit in particular seems to constantly link this thread and label the discussion about "mistranslations," but it's absolutely not that, so you should challenge them about whether or not they've actually read the very post they're referencing.

(Original user post begins after this point)

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This must seem like an odd topic/question, given the prevalent acceptance in the fanbase that it was Goku's crying that made Broly crazy but, seeing the actual movie and analyzing it, I realized that it's not nearly as obvious as it might seem.

Because of this and since it's a notion that has become so prevalent, with even well-informed fans apparently taking it as truthful (like apparently the awesome guys at Teamfourstar), I thought it was a nice idea to dissect this notion and the movie and see if we can even say that Broly actually remembers Goku as a baby.




Movie 8 - Dragon Ball Z: Broly – The Legendary Super Saiyan







Part 1 - Broly knowing Kakarot/Goku's name



A good indication that Broly might remember Goku would be him knowing Goku's name... as long as adult Broly doesn't hear his name before addressing Goku in the movie.

So, what happens in the movie?

Goku's first interaction with Broly happens around 20 minutes and 25 seconds into the movie. Goku is already in New Vegeta and is sitting on a hallway when Vegeta, Paragus and Broly pass by Goku. Goku addresses Vegeta, and Vegeta responds, calling him "Kakarot" while Broly is within earshot. After that, Vegeta and Paragus continue to walk on by Goku, but Broly stops, faces Goku for a minute and then leaves after Paragus strengthens his mind control.



In other words, the movie shows us that Broly had the opportunity to learn Goku's name by hearing what Vegeta said before ever addressing Goku. Therefore, Broly knowing Goku's name is not an indication that he remembers Goku at all.



Part 2 - Broly's reaction to Goku



Another good indication that Broly might remember Goku is how he reacts to him in the movie. Broly has an obvious reaction to Goku in the movie, but does the movie actually try to explain that reaction with the fact that Broly remembers Goku and/or that Goku's crying as a baby is the cause for the reaction, or does the movie offer other explanations?

Let's see.

Throughout the entire movie, only one character talks about Broly's reaction to Goku, trying to make sense of it, with no other character ever addressing it. That character is Paragus.

As stated, Goku's first interaction with Broly happens around 20 minutes and 25 seconds into the movie. After that encounter, Paragus has his mind-control device checked out, and he is told that the device is working fine. Then, at 22 minutes and 39 seconds into the movie, Paragus, knowing that the device is working, starts to wonder why Broly had that reaction. This is what he says:

Paragus: "Could it be Kakarot? Does this mean that Broly's instints as a Saiyan have been awakened by Kakarot's power and he is starting to overcome the limits of my control?"

This speculation seems to be not only aimed at Paragus himself, but also at the audience. In other words, it seems to be expositional in nature, meaning that the movie is offering the audience the explanation through Paragus' speculation and Paragus never says or implies that Broly remembers Kakarot.



That being the case, it seems that the movie doesn't actually explain Broly's reaction with Broly remembering Goku or with Goku's crying making Broly mad. In fact, it straight up offers another explanation: that Broly reacted that way because Goku's power stimulated his saiyans instincts and, because of that, he started fighting off his mind-control.

Therefore, my conclusion can only be that Broly's reaction to Goku is not an indication that he remembers Goku at all or even an indication that Goku's crying affected Broly at all since that's not the explanation provided.




Part 3 - The baby Goku crying flashback



Another indication that Broly might remember Goku is the crying flashback. The movie seems to put a significant amount of importance on that flashback and it's possible to interpret that scene as an important part of why Broly remembers Goku or even hates him. But does the movie shows us that to be the case?

At 23 minutes and 1 second into the movie, Paragus, after speculating on why Broly reacted to Goku in that fashion, thinks back to how Broly was, how he put him under control and he even thinks about Broly and Goku as babies, and we, the audience, get flashbacks of these events alongside his narration, leaving no doubt that the information is meant for the audience and is expositional in nature. Here's what Paragus had to say about Broly and Goku as babies:

Paragus: "Broly and Kakarot were born on the same day, one right after the other. If it is Kakarot...", "Damn, the threads of destiny have once again intertwined here, have they? The two infants, born on the same day and laid down in adjoining beds..."

Paragus never says or implies that their meeting as babies or that Goku's crying had any part in causing Broly's reaction or that Broly might remember Goku because of it. Instead, he seems to just be saying that it's a twist of fate, of destiny, that they were born on the same day and were right beside each other as babies and that they are now in that situation. The point of his statement seems to be to emphasize the marking of destiny, of fate, imprinted upon their meeting, and not on Broly remembering Goku or Goku's crying affecting Broly.



Therefore, in regards to Paragus and the crying flashback, my conclusion can only be that there is no indication in it that Broly remembers Goku or that Goku's crying affected Broly at all.

However, besides that, we also get two unknown guys in the flashback commenting on Broly and Goku as babies, and this is what they have to say:

"I'm shocked by Paragus's son. He's just been born and yet his power level is already 10.000." "Bardock's son with a power level of only 2, made Paragus' son cry!" "His power level may be low but that kid at least has guts!"

So, what can we take from these statements? They seem to stress the difference in their power and how Goku was still able to affect Broly despite of this. But can we take from these statements that Goku's crying played a part on Broly's reaction despite what Paragus said and his expositional lines? What are the point of these statements if not?

I believe the movie answers this question 1 hour, 8 minutes and 24 seconds into the movie when Broly is being defeated by Goku and the crying flashback, once again, is played. It seems to be at this moment that the statements made by those two unknown guys gain meaning. As they said, baby Goku was much weaker than baby Broly, but he still found a way to disturb him with his cry. And isn't that basically what happened in the fight in the movie? Goku was much weaker, but he still found a way to disturb and beat Broly, by cumulating the power of his friends with his own and striking back.

The guys that made this movie chose to repeat that flashback as Broly was being defeated and I see no other plausible justification for that than giving meaning to the words of those two unkowns. That means that the crying flashback works as foreshadowing and a metaphor for the fight between Broly and Goku, and not as the cause for Broly's actions towards Goku. Even though it's possible to interpret the flashback in that way, the statements of those two unknowns don't say or imply by themselves that Broly remembers Goku or that he became crazy due to Goku's crying, and in conjunction with the rest of the movie, namely the repetition of the flashback as Broly is being defeated, I am forced to conclude that those statements are not an indication that Broly remembers Goku or that Goku's crying made Broly mad.






Part 4 - What Broly says



If Broly at any time during the movie said anything that might imply that he remembers Goku, or even that he is mad at him because of something in the past, that would be a good indication. However, throughout the movie, in all his lines, Broly never says anything that implies such. Therefore, nothing that Broly says serves as an indication that he remembers Goku.




Conclusions.



Unless the subtitles of the version of the movie I watched are completely wrong (which I highly doubt), I see nothing, whatsoever, in the movie that actually supports the notion that Broly remembers Goku as a baby. Nor do I see anything that supports the notion that Goku's crying made Broly mad and that that is the cause of Broly's reaction to Goku. The movie flat-out tells the audience why Broly had that reaction through Paragus in what seems to be, undoubtedly, expositional lines. And as for the crying flashback, nothing in the movie implies that the flashback means that the crying is the cause of the reaction or that Broly remembers Goku because of it, and we have Paragus mentioning it simply to point out what a twist of fate it is and the scene being used by the movie itself as both foreshadowing and a metaphor for the fight.





But wait, there's more...



Movie 10 - Dragon Ball Z: Broly – Second Coming



However, Movie 8 is not the only Broly movie. It's without a doubt the most significant Broly movie, but not the only one. Do the other two movies change the answers and conclusions reached with the analysis of movie 8?

Let's find out.

The two relevant aspects of movie 10 in regards to the topic at hand are the circumstances behind Broly's awakening and his reaction to Goten and Gohan. The movie starts with a wounded Broly that has managed to survive, reached Earth and is obviously angry at Goku for being defeated and almost killed. He then remains frozen and comatose on a kind of frozen lake or iceberg while still recovering.

He remains in that situation until Goten starts to yell and cry. Those yells and cries apparently reach the ears of a frozen and comatose Broly, who reacts to it, and the audience is presented with flashbacks to baby Goku crying and the final events of movie 8, and Broly starts to wake up.

What conclusions can we draw from these events?

Well, in my opinion, this is the first sign that Broly actually manages to remember Goku crying as a baby, and the first real piece of info that might support the theory/interpretation that Broly reacts to Goku in that fashion because he remembers him and/or his crying made him mad.

But, is it the most logical interpretation and is it really what the movie is trying to tell us? If we answered this question with yes, that would mean that this movie is trying to go against the explanations offered in the last movie by Paragus. Is that what the movie is trying to do with this scene?

In my opinion, no, it isn't.

Broly is frozen and in a coma and even though the movie seems to be telling us that Broly is indeed managing to remember baby Goku thanks to Goten's yells and cries that sound remarkably like him, that doesn't mean that Broly actually remembered baby Goku before that moment in time (aka in movie 8 ).

Furthermore, the movie links that crying with the final events of movie 8, when Broly had a hole punched in his chest by Goku, showing those flashbacks in sequence. Therefore, the most logical interpretation is that it's not the crying and remembering the crying that is upsetting Broly and eventually manages to wake him up, but how all that is making him remember how he was defeated and almost killed by Goku in a very painful way.

Unlike the previous movie, where Broly didn't actually hate Goku and was just stimulated by his power into action as was clearly stated in the movie itself, in this movie Broly has every reason to hate Goku due to what he did to him in movie 8, and he does hate him and everything that has to do with him.

This is where Goten enters since he not only looks like Goku but he also sounds like Goku, even in his yells and cries, and this is also where Broly's reaction to Goten and Gohan fits in.

Broly, later on the movie, has obvious reactions to them, while yelling many times Goku's name. But all that just means that he is very focused and very angry with Goku, it doesn't tell us why he is that angry and focused on Goku. And it seems obvious that he is more focused and angry with Goku than he ever was. Why is that? The plausible answer is the events of movie 8, namely his painful defeat. Meaning that what drives Broly in this movie and motivates him and his anger is what happened in movie 8. Even though he remembered baby Goku crying while he was comatose and frozen, that's not what, ultimately, drove him, even in this movie.


Conclusions:

While he does appear that Broly manages to remember baby Goku while in a coma and frozen, this fact doesn't act as his motivation for his actions in the movie. Rather, it's the events of movie 8. And the fact that he remembered doesn't contradict the previous conclusions regarding movie 8 because nothing is suggesting or implying that he remembered him during the events of movie 8.

However, in regards to the topic at hand, aka "Does Broly even remember Goku as a baby?", the answer with this movie becomes more nuanced, meaning that the answer should be that during the events of movie 8 Broly didn't remember it (because nothing suggests he did), but he does seem to remember it, at least briefly, during the events of movie 10.

In any case, in both movies, there is never the suggestion or implication that it's the actual crying and its memory that drives Broly. From the conjunction of the two movies and the flashback to Goku defeating Broly, what actually seems to be his motivations are the final events of movie 8 which justify his obsessive focus and anger towards Goku and everything that reminds him of Goku.

[Gog]

Than must I ask then why does Broly hate Goku so much then? Honestly his hate should have been focused entirely on Vegeta himself. It would have made much more sense, and would have been more believable.

[TheMikado]

Than must I ask then why does Broly hate Goku so much then? Honestly his hate should have been focused entirely on Vegeta himself. It would have made much more sense, and would have been more believable.

They just needed a reason for Broly to zero in on Goku, it's a horrible reason but what else are you gonna do? It's not like a Goku had a ton of contact with other saiyans.

[rereboy]

Than must I ask then why does Broly hate Goku so much then? Honestly his hate should have been focused entirely on Vegeta himself. It would have made much more sense, and would have been more believable.

Nowhere in the entire movie is it stated or implied that Broly "hates" anyone. His reaction to Goku is explained by Paragus when he says: ""Could it be Kakarot? Does this mean that Broly's instints as a Saiyan have been awakened by Kakarot's power and he is starting to overcome the limits of my control?". That's the explanation. Goku's power is stimulating Broly's saiyan instincts. That's it.

As for why Broly is so keen to destroy, kill and be evil in general, that is also answered in the movie 23 minutes and 32 seconds in, with Paragus saying: "Broly was the very model of a saiyan. As he began to develop, the extraordinary battle power he was born with increased and turned savage as I, his father, felt terror towards him". In other words, his overwhelming power is what is makes him act savagely.

Than must I ask then why does Broly hate Goku so much then? Honestly his hate should have been focused entirely on Vegeta himself. It would have made much more sense, and would have been more believable.

They just needed a reason for Broly to zero in on Goku, it's a horrible reason but what else are you gonna do? It's not like a Goku had a ton of contact with other saiyans.

Hate is never presented as a reason or a motivation for Broly in the movie.

[Zephyr]

Than must I ask then why does Broly hate Goku so much then? Honestly his hate should have been focused entirely on Vegeta himself. It would have made much more sense, and would have been more believable.

Goku's stronger than Vegeta.

Though really, it's Gohan he should be zeroing in on.

[Gog]

Than must I ask then why does Broly hate Goku so much then? Honestly his hate should have been focused entirely on Vegeta himself. It would have made much more sense, and would have been more believable.

Nowhere in the entire movie is it stated or implied that Broly "hates" anyone. His reaction to Goku is explained by Paragus when he says: ""Could it be Kakarot? Does this mean that Broly's instints as a Saiyan have been awakened by Kakarot's power and he is starting to overcome the limits of my control?". That's the explanation. Goku's power is stimulating Broly's saiyan instincts. That's it.

As for why Broly is so keen to destroy, kill and be evil in general, that is also answered in the movie 23 minutes and 32 seconds in, with Paragus saying: "Broly was the very model of a saiyan. As he began to develop, the extraordinary battle power he was born with increased and turned savage as I, his father, felt terror towards him". In other words, his overwhelming power is what is makes him act savagely.

Ahh, thanks for clearing that up. Honestly I would have preferred if the whole entire baby scene was cut out in its entirety as people just keep on misrepresenting that scene.

[rereboy]

Than must I ask then why does Broly hate Goku so much then? Honestly his hate should have been focused entirely on Vegeta himself. It would have made much more sense, and would have been more believable.

Goku's stronger than Vegeta.

Though really, it's Gohan he should be zeroing in on.

The movies don't follow the continuity of the manga. Gohan in this movie isn't necessarily Cell games Gohan with the corresponding power just beneath the surface. The movie seems to imply that Goku is the strongest.

[Nejishiki]

I think this is a well-researched interpretation. It's a shame these thoughts weren't produced earlier. It certainly reads easier than the stereotype already ingrained by the community. As far as Dragon Ball Z Movie 08 goes, I can view it in a better light this way (in addition to a recent re-watch where I enjoyed it more before the Legendary Super Saiyan transformation, which bored me).

[rereboy]

I think this is a well-researched interpretation. It's a shame these thoughts weren't produced earlier. It certainly reads easier than the stereotype already ingrained by the community. As far as Dragon Ball Z Movie 08 goes, I can view it in a better light this way (in addition to a recent re-watch where I enjoyed it more before the Legendary Super Saiyan transformation, which bored me).

Thank you.

At the risk of sounding conceited however, I wouldn't even call the stereotype ingrained in the fanbase an actual interpretation since I couldn't even find anything in the movie that remotely supports that stereotype. In my view, it's basically a total misinterpretation in regards to the existence of the crying flashback that ignores the explanations offered by Paragus.

As for the second part of the movie, I agree that it's worse than the first because the fighting choreography is lacking. That was the greatest flaw in the movie, imo.

[Cipher]

This is the gospel truth.

[rereboy]

Added some images to make the topic more visually appealing.

[dbgtFO]

A very good write up and I completely agree, as usual
Of course the fandom at large has already written their own narrative and will stick with it forever to justify their ridiculous hate and all their jokes, because if it isn't spoon-fed to them, then it's just shitty. Subtlety is evidently not for the general audience.
As always Movie 8 was good on its own and it was only the next 2 Broly movies, that really ruined him.

[rereboy]

I've added my considerations in regards to the second Broly movie. As you can see, with that movie, the answer is more nuanced, but it doesn't really contradict the conclusions for movie 8.

[Omniboy]

I know my reply is very late, ( this post was made a month ago ) but I really have to thank you for making this post that clears up the misconception of Broly's hate towards Goku. I have been a fan of Broly since I was young, but one thing that always bothered me about him was his vendetta against Goku, and my (and many others) misunderstanding of the cause of that "hate." I honestly hope many more people find this out as it is a shame that his motive has been misinterpreted for 20+ years.

[rereboy]

I know my reply is very late, ( this post was made a month ago ) but I really have to thank you for making this post that clears up the misconception of Broly's hate towards Goku. I have been a fan of Broly since I was young, but one thing that always bothered me about him was his vendetta against Goku, and my (and many others) misunderstanding of the cause of that "hate." I honestly hope many more people find this out as it is a shame that his motive has been misinterpreted for 20+ years.

You're welcome. Well, ultimately, people will think what they want to think . And it's not like the mainstream interpretation is crazy, given what we see happening in movie 10 where Broly seems to remember baby Goku, but as I've argued, it's really not the most logical interpretation and it's not what movie 8 was trying to tell us, imo.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

How on Earth did I miss this gem of a thread? Thanks, it needed to be made.

[TheMikado]

I know my reply is very late, ( this post was made a month ago ) but I really have to thank you for making this post that clears up the misconception of Broly's hate towards Goku. I have been a fan of Broly since I was young, but one thing that always bothered me about him was his vendetta against Goku, and my (and many others) misunderstanding of the cause of that "hate." I honestly hope many more people find this out as it is a shame that his motive has been misinterpreted for 20+ years.

You're welcome. Well, ultimately, people will think what they want to think . And it's not like the mainstream interpretation is crazy, given what we see happening in movie 10 where Broly seems to remember baby Goku, but as I've argued, it's really not the most logical interpretation and it's not what movie 8 was trying to tell us, imo.

I think the issue is that with movie 10 the subtleties of the character are lost. It's almost as if someone who had a very shallow understanding of Broly created movie 10. Anyway I've got a great thread explaining why I think Goku reacted specifically to Goku as the LSSJ. It's unfortunate so much critical analysis is lost on the fandom.

He's a plug of mine. I'd love to hear the OPs thoughts
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37299

[rereboy]

I know my reply is very late, ( this post was made a month ago ) but I really have to thank you for making this post that clears up the misconception of Broly's hate towards Goku. I have been a fan of Broly since I was young, but one thing that always bothered me about him was his vendetta against Goku, and my (and many others) misunderstanding of the cause of that "hate." I honestly hope many more people find this out as it is a shame that his motive has been misinterpreted for 20+ years.

You're welcome. Well, ultimately, people will think what they want to think . And it's not like the mainstream interpretation is crazy, given what we see happening in movie 10 where Broly seems to remember baby Goku, but as I've argued, it's really not the most logical interpretation and it's not what movie 8 was trying to tell us, imo.

I think the issue is that with movie 10 the subtleties of the character are lost. It's almost as if someone who had a very shallow understanding of Broly created movie 10. Anyway I've got a great thread explaining why I think Goku reacted specifically to Goku as the LSSJ. It's unfortunate so much critical analysis is lost on the fandom.

He's a plug of mine. I'd love to hear the OPs thoughts
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37299

I think the issue with movie 10 is divided in two:

1- From the creator's perspective:

The guys that made movie 8 are the ones that made movie 10, so it can't really be argued that they didn't know movie 8. However, I think that the direction that went with Broly is focused on a severely traumatized Broly due to the final events of movie 8.

Even in movie 8, even though in the entirety of that movie Broly remains fully logical and speaks normally, without any signs of a cognitive deficiency, it's clear that Broly's mind is not exactly normal, due to the fact that his power had taken on basically a persona by itself and consumed whatever other persona Broly had or was besides it as time went by. But, with the final events of movie 8, his mind becomes even more abnormal. Now, his mind that has been consumed by the persona brought forth by his power has to deal with the concept of severe defeat and pain, which is something that his persona is simply not equipped to deal with.

Because of this, Broly is basically in crysis with the events and with himself, which makes him very unstable and way more focused than he ever was on what caused all this: Goku.

This is why there is such a stark difference in his demeanor compared to movie 8. Unlike what many fans incorrectly remember, in movie 8, Broly remained fully logical and kept speaking normally until the end of the movie. But on movie 10, with all this going on with him, his mind isn't functioning more than on basic level of understanding and is being driven by pain and hate towards Goku for having defeated him. That causes him to just utter Goku's name, misunderstand things and perhaps even have his mind play tricks on him.

So, in short, unlike movie 8, movie 10 is a revenge movie in which a more unstable Broly who is not equipped to deal with the pain and the defeat he has suffered, tries to achieve his revenge by lashing out at what reminds him of Goku.

None of this contradicts movie 8. In fact, the events of movie 8 are what justify and create this change in Broly.

2- From the fanbase perspective:

The problem is that the fanbase tend to confuse the elements of both movies. Many tend to think that damaged, in crisis Broly, that could only say "Kakarotto" from movie 10, exists in movie 8, with many even thinking that Broly acted that way in movie 8. But that's simply not true. Broly is very different in movie 8 compared to movie 10 and it's the events and damage taken by Broly in movie 8 that cause Broly to change for movie 10. This notion has eluded much of the fanbase and confusion about the different elements and how Broly is before and after his defeat at the hands of Goku ensues.

[Omniboy]

I know my reply is very late, ( this post was made a month ago ) but I really have to thank you for making this post that clears up the misconception of Broly's hate towards Goku. I have been a fan of Broly since I was young, but one thing that always bothered me about him was his vendetta against Goku, and my (and many others) misunderstanding of the cause of that "hate." I honestly hope many more people find this out as it is a shame that his motive has been misinterpreted for 20+ years.

You're welcome. Well, ultimately, people will think what they want to think . And it's not like the mainstream interpretation is crazy, given what we see happening in movie 10 where Broly seems to remember baby Goku, but as I've argued, it's really not the most logical interpretation and it's not what movie 8 was trying to tell us, imo.

Do you think it's possible that the scene in movie 10 wasn't showing Broly remembering what happened when he was a baby, but actually just showing the similarities on what happened the day of his birth and what happened 7 years later after he was defeated . Like opposed to Goku's crying disturbing him, it was that looked exactly like Goku, who just so happened to be his son.

[rereboy]

Do you think it's possible that the scene in movie 10 wasn't showing Broly remembering what happened when he was a baby, but actually just showing the similarities on what happened the day of his birth and what happened 7 years later after he was defeated . Like opposed to Goku's crying disturbing him, it was that looked exactly like Goku, who just so happened to be his son.

It's possible that that was one of the intents of the creators, but I think it's undeniable that they also had the intention of Broly reacting to Goten's cry because it reminding him of Goku's cry which in turned remembered Broly of all the pain and the defeat at the end of movie 8.