Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ChiefWamsutta]

Also, Super Saiyan can't be always the same as it always been if there was a retcon, otherwise Piccolo should have easily been able to smash Frost. And again, that is assuming that Toriyama retcon most of Resurrection 'F', a movie he wrote, and told no one despite the movie being retold in the anime and him having time to tell Toei that he made this huge changed.

One of your biggest points is that it is not impossible for beings from another Universe to be approaching Beerus' power. From Universe 6, only Hit is that strong.

Reason #1: Being at SSGod level is a rare thing.

No one in Universe 7 got up to that level except for Goku and Vegeta by Resurrection 'F'. It makes much more logical sense for only Hit to be around SSGod level than ALL five of the contestants. SSGod level is a huge joke if anyone can get up there easily. Goku mentions to Vegeta during the tournament about Hit. He does not talk that way about anyone else.

Reason #2: Vegeta was utterly unimpressed by Cabba's Base.

If Vegeta's Base form WAS, in fact, at Super Saiyan God level, then Cabba would've been **generally nearer** to him. Vegeta was disgusted by the lack of pride from Cabba. If Cabba was at Super Saiyan God level without even needing to go Super Saiyan, Vegeta would be proud of him AND surprised. He was doing none of those things. Vegeta made Cabba out to be weak, and felt the urge to train him. He wouldn't go that far if Cabba was already at god level.

Reason #3: Frost is never stated to train.

Frost, being the arrogant guy that he is, mentioned at times how he kept hidden away his Final Form. In order to get his Final Form to be around god level, Frieza had to train for four months. Frost is never implied to train at all. He effortlessly attacks local citizens, just like Frieza was able to do on Namek and that didn't make him stronger. If Frost couldn't even control his Final Form, then he had never trained to reach his upper limits. Therefore he is weaker than god level.


The majority of people in the community seem to have come to a mutual understanding of the Retcon Theory. Continuing to believe that Goku's Base is still around god level, despite glaringly obvious problems is silly.

[Ki Breaker]

Frost, being the arrogant guy that he is, mentioned at times how he kept hidden away his Final Form. In order to get his Final Form to be around god level, Frieza had to train for four months. Frost is never implied to train at all. He effortlessly attacks local citizens, just like Frieza was able to do on Namek and that didn't make him stronger. If Frost couldn't even control his Final Form, then he had never trained to reach his upper limits. Therefore he is weaker than god level.

Frost obviously never trained, he is implied to be just like freeza just more cunning, who's to say freeza wouldn't use a poison needel if a tournament is in question..
Pretty sure Frost is going to turn golden frost, all this time in hiding he has been training.. is the kind of explanation we might get..

Also, bardock is going to return in super, mark my words, that's the 2nd most popular demand I have seen after broly

[DBZ Macky]

I might be mistaken, but if I'm not, Goku states in at least on of the versions that Frost should train like Freeza and get strong like him.
This would strongly imply Freeza > Frost, wouldn't it?

[ekrolo2]

I might be mistaken, but if I'm not, Goku states in at least on of the versions that Frost should train like Freeza and get strong like him.
This would strongly imply Freeza > Frost, wouldn't it?

Judging them by performance is enough, Goku stomps Frost with basic Super Saiyan (and not exerting much power to do so) while Freeza would've killed him and Vegeta in SSBlue if he didn't botch his training.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Frost, being the arrogant guy that he is, mentioned at times how he kept hidden away his Final Form. In order to get his Final Form to be around god level, Frieza had to train for four months. Frost is never implied to train at all. He effortlessly attacks local citizens, just like Frieza was able to do on Namek and that didn't make him stronger. If Frost couldn't even control his Final Form, then he had never trained to reach his upper limits. Therefore he is weaker than god level.

Frost obviously never trained, he is implied to be just like freeza just more cunning, who's to say freeza wouldn't use a poison needel if a tournament is in question..
Pretty sure Frost is going to turn golden frost, all this time in hiding he has been training.. is the kind of explanation we might get..

Also, bardock is going to return in super, mark my words, that's the 2nd most popular demand I have seen after broly

Frost training after the Universe 6 tournament makes a lot of sense. Yeah, but there is no way that he trained before the U6/U7 tournament. He couldn't have been at SSGod level.

Bardock would be cool, except I don't know how that would play out. I'd rather explore the new Gods of Destruction, Supreme Kais, and Angels.

I might be mistaken, but if I'm not, Goku states in at least on of the versions that Frost should train like Freeza and get strong like him.
This would strongly imply Freeza > Frost, wouldn't it?

Judging them by performance is enough, Goku stomps Frost with basic Super Saiyan (and not exerting much power to do so) while Freeza would've killed him and Vegeta in SSBlue if he didn't botch his training.

Exactly, yeah. It is incredibly unlikely that Frost was at SSGod level. From a production standpoint, it makes sense to showcase Super Saiyan 1 against Frost because know it is weaker compared to SSBlue.

[DBZ Macky]

I might be mistaken, but if I'm not, Goku states in at least on of the versions that Frost should train like Freeza and get strong like him.
This would strongly imply Freeza > Frost, wouldn't it?

Judging them by performance is enough, Goku stomps Frost with basic Super Saiyan (and not exerting much power to do so) while Freeza would've killed him and Vegeta in SSBlue if he didn't botch his training.

I'm being a bit biased here, but I think you could interpret that as Frost being weaker than Final Form Freeza post training. It's a weak argument though.

Goku jumped on the conclusion that Frost didn't "train like Freeza". It could refer to the Golden form only, but doesn't strike good with me.

[ekrolo2]

I'm being a bit biased here, but I think you could interpret that as Frost being weaker than Final Form Freeza post training. It's a weak argument though.

Goku jumped on the conclusion that Frost didn't "train like Freeza". It could refer to the Golden form only, but doesn't strike good with me.

That is a bit trickier to figure out. Frost doesn't seem to bulk up like Freeza did on Namek but his comment during the Piccolo fight about how he's lost too much power to accidentally kill him implies he's not too good with his power control.

Still, Goku didn't power down when Frost used his true form so he might potentially be stronger than Final Form Freeza post training. Or only somewhat stronger than Namek Freeza was if you believe the two base theory.

[Khin]

I might be mistaken, but if I'm not, Goku states in at least on of the versions that Frost should train like Freeza and get strong like him.

Yes, but only in the manga -- this line isn't present in the anime version. If I recall correctly, Goku said that Frost should also train, because that's what Freeza did to get strong.

But we have no idea how strong manga Freeza is because his arc was skipped over, all we have are some theories like Goku using Super Saiyan God against final form Freeza instead of his base form, which incidentally fits with your notion about final form Freeza being stronger than Frost.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I just wanted to say that I find it funny when people are incapable of looking at things from another angle.

I keep having this discussion with someone on YouTube about the Goku vs. Gohan fight in Episode 75. He says that there is no way Gohan is at SSGod level, so therefore it is obvious that Goku was holding back. I asked him for a minute and second that it happened.

SS Gohan kept up with SS Goku ki-blast-wise and got some solid hits on SS Goku. They ended up destroying the field, which they were not aware they were doing, meaning he couldn't have been holding back.

Shaking my damn head ... some people can't even consider another option when they are wrong and still say the same things.

[HeroR]

I really really hope that these nightmares ghosts versions will have pl of real monsters, and I would love if current base goku is close or on par with super buu. It would add a lot more consistency to series. If it happen then retcon is obvious as day and here would be my list for just universe 7:

ss2 goku
ss2 gohan
ss goku
ss gohan
base goku
final form frieeza
rof ss2 gohan(if he could transform)
enraged fat buu
third form frieeza
rof ss gohan
current majin buu
current base gohan
rof second form frieeza
rof first form frieeza

It would make sense with base goku calling buu crazy strong while enraged(goku was in base as before u6). This base goku would be majin buu level or a bit above, same with final frieeza making big deal suprassing current majin buu without golden form. Current base goku/vegeta could be super buu tier.

Copy water arc and gag beerus against goku inserts ignored or treated as gags, while post ssg ss and base goku being temporary unstable ssb, once goku and vegeta obtained full control over ssb thei base and ss forms while still powered up dropped from god tier.

Freeza alone is above Super Buu and Goku fought him in his base form. And you can't ignore it since it was a major arc.

And Buu is strong since he's the next strongest fighter after Gohan, Vegeta called him weak for losing to Beerus.

[DBZ Macky]

I just wanted to say that I find it funny when people are incapable of looking at things from another angle.

I keep having this discussion with someone on YouTube about the Goku vs. Gohan fight in Episode 75. He says that there is no way Gohan is at SSGod level, so therefore it is obvious that Goku was holding back. I asked him for a minute and second that it happened.

SS Gohan kept up with SS Goku ki-blast-wise and got some solid hits on SS Goku. They ended up destroying the field, which they were not aware they were doing, meaning he couldn't have been holding back.

Shaking my damn head ... some people can't even consider another option when they are wrong and still say the same things.

You could reply to him by saying what I'm about to say:

You can assume that Goku is "holding back" and it's all fine and dandy. But think of it from a narrative standpoint. Do you really think Goku is suppressing himself thousand folds? How much sense does that even make.

At least give the retconned base theory a try. It's just a theory, it can be wrong, but just pretend that it's real and roll with it, rewatch the episodes.
You'll notice that it makes so much more sense from a narrative standpoint if Goku and Vegeta aren't thousands of times stronger than their Boo arc selves.

[HeroR]

That is how Resurrection 'F' was directed.

Yeah but that was then, before he started work on an ongoing series. He might have felt the need to change things so they were more suitable for a weekly set of stories.

So, Toyotaro is taking creative license.

But why would he do that in such a way? If Toriyama wrote the movies one way, Toyotaro is aware of it because he did the manga for the movie and the anime is sticking to the movies then why would Toyotaro decide to do something that different?

And Trunks isn't comparable, but we've been thought this, and why would it be odd that people from another universe could surpassed Super Saiyan God Goku? It's no more odd that Gero could invent androids that craps on Freeza, the original strongest being in the universe.

Trunks was absolutely comparable and he logically had no reason to be even close. Cabba is a youthful Saiyan who'd never heard of Super Saiyan yet is as strong Super Saiyan God that was always weird and it seemed a bit of reach that Frost who apparently couldn't have trained too much because he hadn't got used to his Final Form or Magetta whose part of a race that is supposed to have existed in Universe 7 are well above SSJ3 Vegito.

Yeah it was odd with the Androids too but they were able to absorb energy and stack into on their own or they had an infinite amount of energy. Frieza became much more powerful when he was given mechanical parts too.

Fans only believed that was the case because Goku called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan with god ki. It was called Super Saiyan with god ki even in the movie, it was never simply Super Saiyan.

All they said was that it was the "Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God". He'd apparently absorbed the power of God into his body in the previous movie and now when he turns Super Saiyan he's just Blue now.

Then the original Super Saiyan came back and that confused everyone. It might be that Toriyama retconned Goku so that he had no longer absorbed the power of God so he could bring those other forms back.

If he did, he would do what he did with Beerus and made him stronger by removing the 70% line and Goku Vegeta working together, which Super did.

Toyotaro Did something different to make himself stand out from the anime, especially since he fell behind. And Toriyama gave him permission, so why wouldn't he.

Trunks isn't capable for reasons we argued about before. Cabba is from another universe and the Saiyans evolved differently than the U7's Saiyans. They're born without tails, which is said to make Saiyans stronger. Frost is a lair and anything out of his mouth is suspect. Megetta is strong for his race, which is why he was chosen. We also don't even know if Metal Men still exists in U7.

The Android were built by a race who could barely space travel and was said several times to have inferior technology. And endless energy doesn't make you super strong by default and the energy absorbing androids were stronger than Freeza before they absorbed anything.

He took the power of godhood in the movie and he still became a golden Super Saiyan. Beerus even said he absorbed it which is why his power didn't drop and he still became a Super Saiyan God. Fans made an assumption and it was wrong.

[DBZ Macky]

How did Trunks manage to get 100 times as powerful as SSG even though he was barely able to defeat Dabura a few years earlier. Also, why did Goku compare him with Kid Gohan instead of someone like Majin Buu?

P.S: Don't. Fuckin'. Say. Zenkai.

[TheMikado]

I'm going to be pissed if in the end it's just a retcon, they'd best give some explanation that fits the earlier arcs as well as the new ones.

There's a very easy solution for this. Make a Super "kai" where they add an distinct aura effect every time Goku/Vegeta use God ki in base, ie RoF and Copy Vegeta arc. Problem solved and costs them almost nothing.

[HeroR]

I just wanted to say that I find it funny when people are incapable of looking at things from another angle.

I keep having this discussion with someone on YouTube about the Goku vs. Gohan fight in Episode 75. He says that there is no way Gohan is at SSGod level, so therefore it is obvious that Goku was holding back. I asked him for a minute and second that it happened.

SS Gohan kept up with SS Goku ki-blast-wise and got some solid hits on SS Goku. They ended up destroying the field, which they were not aware they were doing, meaning he couldn't have been holding back.

Shaking my damn head ... some people can't even consider another option when they are wrong and still say the same things.

Goku and Beerus nearly destroyed the planet during their spar in Episode 42, and Goku was in his base form. Destroying just a field as a Super Saiyan is holding back.

How did Trunks manage to get 100 times as powerful as SSG even though he was barely able to defeat Dabura a few years earlier. Also, why did Goku compare him with Kid Gohan instead of someone like Majin Buu?

P.S: Don't. Fuckin'. Say. Zenkai.

He wasn't. Trunks didn't even hurt Goku when all he did was block. And the Gohan comparison is only in the manga, if that's what you're referring to.

[DBZ Macky]

I'm going to be pissed if in the end it's just a retcon, they'd best give some explanation that fits the earlier arcs as well as the new ones.

There's a very easy solution for this. Make a Super "kai" where they add an distinct aura effect every time Goku/Vegeta use God ki in base, ie RoF and Copy Vegeta arc. Problem solved and costs them almost nothing.

OR better yet, just outright ignore the stupid shit.
We had Toriyama make Trunks mention androids #19 and #20 and then shamelessly retconning that, Vegeta being at 20,000 in the Reacoom fight, and so much more that I can't recall right now.

We don't need to justify all that bullcrap with fan-theories. We can simply ignore them with out-of-universe reasons.

The fact that Goku and Vegeta have SHOWN to be able to use God Aura in base just helps add some in-universe reasoning.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

As far as Goku's power after SSJG is concerned, Goku says that he didn't feel like he got weaker after SSJG wore off. I feel like that doesn't explicitly mean that SSJ Goku=SSJG Goku though.

I feel like it's the same as Goku simply reverting from Super Saiyan and going back to base. He wouldn't feel weaker since he didn't technically lose power, but he is using less power.

The same idea was proposed in the movie. Goku was stated to have not gotten much weaker, but there isn't anything implying the boost from SSJ decreased or anything like that. It was just referring to his state of being. It was still shown that SSJG Goku>>>SSJ Goku>>>Base Goku, since SSJ still gives the same boost to Goku's base yet SSJG Goku can stop something that can completely overwhelm SSJ Goku.

Krillin says that Goku is stronger than ever during his fight with Frieza, but that definitely doesn't imply more than not that Goku surpassed his previous SSJG level in base. I feel that it would only have to mean that ROF Base Goku>Any previous version of Base Goku, and that would be enough for Krillin to deduce that Goku's stronger than ever.

I think that narrative is that the only characters that are on the level of god power like SSJG are the one's that Goku and Vegeta needed to use SSB against.

[HeroR]

I'm going to be pissed if in the end it's just a retcon, they'd best give some explanation that fits the earlier arcs as well as the new ones.

There's a very easy solution for this. Make a Super "kai" where they add an distinct aura effect every time Goku/Vegeta use God ki in base, ie RoF and Copy Vegeta arc. Problem solved and costs them almost nothing.

OR better yet, just outright ignore the stupid shit.
We had Toriyama make Trunks mention androids #19 and #20 and then shamelessly retconning that, Vegeta being at 20,000 in the Reacoom fight, and so much more that I can't recall right now.

We don't need to justify all that bullcrap with fan-theories. We can simply ignore them with out-of-universe reasons.

The fact that Goku and Vegeta have SHOWN to be able to use God Aura in base just helps add some in-universe reasoning.

They have never been shown with God aura in base. Only Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan have God ki since everyone can sense base form Goku, but not his God forms. And Vegeta was over 30,000, and how is that a retcon?

As far as Goku's power after SSJG is concerned, Goku says that he didn't feel like he got weaker after SSJG wore off. I feel like that doesn't explicitly mean that SSJ Goku=SSJG Goku though.

I feel like it's the same as Goku simply reverting from Super Saiyan and going back to base. He wouldn't feel weaker since he didn't technically lose power, but he is using less power.

The same idea was proposed in the movie. Goku was stated to have not gotten much weaker, but there isn't anything implying the boost from SSJ decreased or anything like that. It was just referring to his state of being. It was still shown that SSJG Goku>>>SSJ Goku>>>Base Goku, since SSJ still gives the same boost to Goku's base yet SSJG Goku can stop something that can completely overwhelm SSJ Goku.

Krillin says that Goku is stronger than ever during his fight with Frieza, but that definitely doesn't imply more than not that Goku surpassed his previous SSJG level in base. I feel that it would only have to mean that ROF Base Goku>Any previous version of Base Goku, and that would be enough for Krillin to deduce that Goku's stronger than ever.

I think that narrative is that the only characters that are on the level of god power like SSJG are the one's that Goku and Vegeta needed to use SSB against.

Super Saiyan is a 50x increase in power. Goku feels it when he loses the form. Beerus also said Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God and Toriyama said the same thing in an interview. Nothing suggests a massive drop in power, especially since Super Saiyan God is a multiplier, not a set level.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

There's a very easy solution for this. Make a Super "kai" where they add an distinct aura effect every time Goku/Vegeta use God ki in base, ie RoF and Copy Vegeta arc. Problem solved and costs them almost nothing.

OR better yet, just outright ignore the stupid shit.
We had Toriyama make Trunks mention androids #19 and #20 and then shamelessly retconning that, Vegeta being at 20,000 in the Reacoom fight, and so much more that I can't recall right now.

We don't need to justify all that bullcrap with fan-theories. We can simply ignore them with out-of-universe reasons.

The fact that Goku and Vegeta have SHOWN to be able to use God Aura in base just helps add some in-universe reasoning.

They have never been shown with God aura in base. Only Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan have God ki since everyone can sense base form Goku, but not his God forms. And Vegeta was over 30,000, and how is that a retcon?

As far as Goku's power after SSJG is concerned, Goku says that he didn't feel like he got weaker after SSJG wore off. I feel like that doesn't explicitly mean that SSJ Goku=SSJG Goku though.

I feel like it's the same as Goku simply reverting from Super Saiyan and going back to base. He wouldn't feel weaker since he didn't technically lose power, but he is using less power.

The same idea was proposed in the movie. Goku was stated to have not gotten much weaker, but there isn't anything implying the boost from SSJ decreased or anything like that. It was just referring to his state of being. It was still shown that SSJG Goku>>>SSJ Goku>>>Base Goku, since SSJ still gives the same boost to Goku's base yet SSJG Goku can stop something that can completely overwhelm SSJ Goku.

Krillin says that Goku is stronger than ever during his fight with Frieza, but that definitely doesn't imply more than not that Goku surpassed his previous SSJG level in base. I feel that it would only have to mean that ROF Base Goku>Any previous version of Base Goku, and that would be enough for Krillin to deduce that Goku's stronger than ever.

I think that narrative is that the only characters that are on the level of god power like SSJG are the one's that Goku and Vegeta needed to use SSB against.

Super Saiyan is a 50x increase in power. Goku feels it when he loses the form. Beerus also said Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God and Toriyama said the same thing in an interview. Nothing suggests a massive drop in power, especially since Super Saiyan God is a multiplier, not a set level.

No, he's just using less power. He doesn't feel weaker in the sense that he actually lost that power. Beerus says the same thing in the movie. When Goku reverted from SSJG, he didn't get much weaker, but he reverted from SSJG to base and even SSJ Goku was below SSJG Goku.

Yes Goku absorbed SSJG. Not seeing your point. That doesn't mean that he possesses SSJG level power in all his forms.

[ekrolo2]

OR better yet, just outright ignore the stupid shit.
We had Toriyama make Trunks mention androids #19 and #20 and then shamelessly retconning that, Vegeta being at 20,000 in the Reacoom fight, and so much more that I can't recall right now.

We don't need to justify all that bullcrap with fan-theories. We can simply ignore them with out-of-universe reasons.

The fact that Goku and Vegeta have SHOWN to be able to use God Aura in base just helps add some in-universe reasoning.

Or just do it like the manga from the start: make Blue and God really powerful forms that elevate Goku & Vegeta to new levels of power. Seriously, GT did that with 4 and it didn't break everything the way these two have done with this shitty absorption business.