Where Dragonball ends and Dragonball Z really begins

[Anonymous Friend]

I was having a discussion with a freind while watching the Season 1 set and it came up how the Saiyan Saga seemed to be an extention of Dragonball. The only thing that really makes it fell like a new series is the revelation that Goku is not really of earth and the extra sci-fi elements (life on other planets, flying to other worlds) that this brings.

We kind of came to the conclusion that it didn't really make a big change until the end of Freeza and Goku transformation to Super Saiyan.

[Dayspring]

I was having a discussion with a freind while watching the Season 1 set and it came up how the Saiyan Saga seemed to be an extention of Dragonball. The only thing that really makes it fell like a new series is the revelation that Goku is not really of earth and the extra sci-fi elements (life on other planets, flying to other worlds) that this brings.

We kind of came to the conclusion that it didn't really make a big change until the end of Freeza and Goku transformation to Super Saiyan.

Look at it from the anime's perspective and you'll see there's a huge shift from Goku to Gohan once Z begins. From the manga's POV it's still pretty much like any other DB scene that Goku's not the star of.

[DaemonCorps]

Well, if you want to be technical about it, DBZ starts when the series was titled that (after DB episode 153).

But in my opinion, if I were to separate the two series myself, it would most likely be at the start of the King Piccolo Saga that DBZ would start, since it takes a more scifi feel, what with an alien suddenly arriving and slowly killing off the budoukai entrants.

But the actual starting point for DBZ makes sense, too, since it's right after a big time jump and focuses more on Gohan.

[Sebastian (SB)]

Meh, didn't notice. It's still Dragon Ball to me.

[Godo]

For me, Dragonball Z starts when Gohan is shown for the first time. Too bad he didn't kill Buu.

[Conan the SSJ]

For me, it starts when the series just starts.

Seriously. In DragonBall, while there were some foreshadowing instances, the Saiyan race never had one mention or other character appear except for Goku. DB is all about Goku's growth on Earth and training to become the fighter he is by the end of the series (he couldn't even start to sense energy or shoot regular energy blasts until the final battle with Daimao). Also worth noting, natural bukujutsu flying was a pretty rare thing back then, so much so that Tien, Choazu, Crane Hermit, Piccolo Daimao (and his offspring), and eventually Kuririn were the only ones who could pull it off. Goku himself never flew once until the conclusion of the battle with Piccolo Jr. That, in my eyes, is a huge factor in showing his full development and capabilities as being the strongest fighter in the world. He then gets married to Chichi (while also seeing his Grandfather one more time for those of us watching the anime) and the series simply ends, on a seemingly perfect note.

Now comes DBZ. Yes, there is that opening scene in the countryside where the Narrator explains how it's been 5 years since Piccolo's plans were foiled, but that just seems more like a transition from the carefree lovable world of the original series into what Raditz's approaching space-pod represents; the action/sci-fi/dramatic setting for the series. This is when the series becomes DragonBall Z. The intro to Gohan is a pretty damn perfect one in the anime, better than even the manga gave IMO; sets up his extreme timidness and pampering, while also giving him some mystery in his ability to survive tense situations. Goku is soon told by Raditz he's an alien and Raditz shows he has enough power to make Goku and Piccolo literally tremble on their knees; setting up the element of much stronger fighters being confronted. Flying and sensing energy becomes a much more natural thing with the Z senshi training on Kami's palace, Lunch makes her last appearance by the time of the Goku/Vegeta battle, etc., etc.

[Mr.Piccolo]

For me, the second Goku senses Raditz the Z series starts.

[shenron002]

For me, the second Goku senses Raditz the Z series starts.

Mine is similar to yours. But I personally consider the start of Dragon Ball Z, is when Piccolo shows up at Master Roshi's island. Piccolo still being the villian from Dragon Ball, teams up with Goku for the first time ever. It upgrades the shows direction, from Dragon Ball to Dragon Ball Z!

[Conan the SSJ]

mine is similar to yours but i consider the start of dbz, when Piccolo shows up on muten roshi' island, all you hear is hes voice and than pans to him, still being the villian from dragonball, and than teams up with goku!

.....

You've been on the forum for a decent while now, watching all of us type our posts properly, and apparently can't take a damn hint. You agreed to a set of very specific rules when you registered here and you're expected to follow them. You seem like an intelligent person and proved you can type alright with that MySpace post you featured, so stop acting like you're on crack and type properly. If you don't, then Mike/VegettoEX is gonna have a few words of his own, and they'll make mine look tame.

[Hao_Kaiser]

.....

You've been on the forum for a decent while now, watching all of us type our posts properly, and apparently can't take a damn hint. You agreed to a set of very specific rules when you registered here and you're expected to follow them. You seem like an intelligent person and proved you can type alright with that MySpace post you featured, so stop acting like you're on crack and type properly. If you don't, then Mike/VegettoEX is gonna have a few words of his own, and they'll make mine look tame.

With all due respect Conan, according to my time stamps, this guy has only been a member for around a day.

Decent while? I think not.

Anyways... Part of me wants to say that the two series split when the anime does, but, at the same time, another part of me wants to consider all adult- Goku stuff to be Z.

I'm not really sure why that is, maybe it's because they have the same feel to them. The fight scenes and plot, that is.

Wow... That was worded extremely awkwardly, so I'll leave you with that.

[Grandmaster J]

Goku and Piccolo teaming up to fight Raditz was a HUGE turning point for the series. They were no longer enemies, but allies out to fight the Saiyans and protect the Earth. From that point on, Goku had no more Earthling enemies (well, besides Dr. Gero, of course ). That's where the Z series begins, in my opinion; on that episode.

[shenron002]

For me, the second Goku senses Raditz the Z series starts.

Mine is similar to yours. But I personally consider the start of Dragon Ball Z, is when Piccolo shows up at Master Roshi's island. Piccolo still being the villian from Dragon Ball, teams up with Goku for the first time ever. It upgrades the shows direction, from Dragon Ball to Dragon Ball Z!

You've been on the forum for a decent while now, watching all of us type our posts properly, and apparently can't take a damn hint. You agreed to a set of very specific rules when you registered here and you're expected to follow them. You seem like an intelligent person and proved you can type alright with that MySpace post you featured, so stop acting like you're on crack and type properly. If you don't, then Mike/VegettoEX is gonna have a few words of his own, and they'll make mine look tame.

That's cool, I understand! I edited my last post, so it's not so caveman like.

[TripleRach]

But in my opinion, if I were to separate the two series myself, it would most likely be at the start of the King Piccolo Saga that DBZ would start, since it takes a more scifi feel, what with an alien suddenly arriving and slowly killing off the budoukai entrants.

Well, it's not like Piccolo suddenly arrived in a space ship to take over Earth. As far as everyone on the planet was concerned, including himself and Kami, Piccolo was just an ancient evil that returned to wreak havoc. No one had any idea he was from another planet until Nappa said it*. And if you went by the logic of him just being an alien at all, well, then you'd have to do the same for Gokuu and say it was pretty sci-fi from the start.

(*Except in the dub, where the writers just didn't give a shit and ruined all the important dialogue during the 23rd Budoukai.)

[DaemonCorps]

I still think the general feel of the series starting around the King Piccolo Saga was getting to be more sci-fi and less fantasy. I mean, in all previous sagas, things like energy blasts and controlling your ki to fly were used only as a last resort. Granted, that's still pretty much followed until the actual end of DB, but when comparing all the Piccolo stuff to the Sagas before that, it just seems a lot different.

Take in mind, though, that I'm incorporating me watching DBZ first, and already being aware of stuff like Kami/Piccolo being Namekians. Stuff like the dub changes about Shin/Kami talking about him coming from another planet have made their way into my train of thought, too. And even though I'm aware that Piccolo was at first made out to be a demon that suddenly appeared without any explanation, I still think of him as the Namekian sent to Earth during Namek's deadly storm.

As for why I think this way about Piccolo but not Goku (being an alien) is beyond me. It's probably because I've always thought of him as just some happy go lucky guy who happened to have a tail.

If I were to see the question from the perspective of someone who saw the series in order without anything spoiled, then yeah, I'd stick with DBZ beginning where it's always began. Also, the actual division between DB and DBZ still makes the most sense, what with the revelation of Goku being an alien and the mentioning of actual spaceships. So I guess the previous paragraphs were for nothing ...

[TripleRach]

Well, I do agree that the feel of the series did change when Piccolo first appeared, though, because that's when things got a lot more serious and action-oriented.

But personally, I think Gohan is the real distinction. We watch Gokuu grow up throughout DB, and we watch Gohan grow up throughout DBZ (where at some points it was obvious he was meant to take over, but it just never happened). I would say the same about Pan being the third generation and DBGT, but it doesn't seem like she gets nearly as much focus or growth as Gohan does.

[zoiozazu]

I think the anime did it right. Dragonball with child Goku. Dragon Ball Z with kid Gohan.

[Vhanos]

another part of me wants to consider all adult- Goku stuff to be Z.

I'll go with this too. When Goku and Piccolo Jr. face each other in the 23rd world martial arts tournament.

[Rocketman]

Dragonball is the good, well-paced series following Goku as he ages, gets stronger, and goes from a country bumpkin to the Legendary Super Saiyan, meeting his end in a planetary explosion after bringing down the tyrant Freeza.

Dragonball Z is the lower quality cash-in sequel that attempts to make up for its increasing inanity with shocking! twists! and! turns!. It begins when Goku and Freeza are revealed (GASP!) to be alive.

[Kaboom]

Dragonball is the good, well-paced series following Goku as he ages, gets stronger, and goes from a country bumpkin to the Legendary Super Saiyan, meeting his end in a planetary explosion after bringing down the tyrant Freeza.

Dragonball Z is the lower quality cash-in sequel that attempts to make up for its increasing inanity with shocking! twists! and! turns!. It begins when Goku and Freeza are revealed (GASP!) to be alive.

That's pretty much it.

[Tanooki Kuribo]

Dragonball Z is the lower quality cash-in sequel that attempts to make up for its increasing inanity with shocking! twists! and! turns!.

Well, maybe after the Cell saga on... but I think everything before that (including the TV Specials) were perfect. I think the Boo saga could have stood alone in its own spin off DragonBall series. Its so different then what DBZ previously was, its almost like another series.