Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Maybe he is and the show is not acknowledging it

The show OPENLY acknowledged it the moment Gohan made it clear that he didn't want Goku to hold back anymore, followed by Goku responding in kind by going Super Saiyan and proceeding to have a relatively serious sparring match, all of which was confirmed by their dialogue, the context of the scene and even the reason for their entire skirmish to begin with. You then tried to deflect from this fact by pretending that there was some sort of play acting involved which was never implied and wasn't even what Goku was looking for in the episode.

And I was talking about this place being the only forum to think a retcon happened without any acknowledgement since that is a massive change that efforts a major story arc.

Except that's not what you said at all in regards to the quote I was replying to. Your statement, word-for-word, was "No one outside this thread remotely thinks that Goku was going all out" which is hardly the same thing as saying "Oh nobody mentioned they thought a retcon happened". Goku may not have been going "all-out" but he was hardly holding back his base strength either.

And yet, he can't sense God ki despite his base form surpassing the power requirement if his base form is equal to Goku's. I didn't deflect, that is how I read the fight since Goku said he's goes all out and he tends not to. And he wanted to go Super Saiyan against Krillin, despite it being unneeded, otherwise he wouldn't have been shocked that Krillin said no Super Saiyan.

And thought it was obvious that I was talking about the retcon and going all out since we have seen what Goku can do when he gets serious. Like he didn't go all out against Beerus in Episode 42.

The final burst Goku did at the end of the movie was just tapping into the SSJG power he possessed earlier. Nothing indicates that it was stronger in any way. The only time it could be argued to properly boost off his current power is when he mastered it from his training with Whis and could actually access the form of his own free will.

The point of the discussion has been lost. The original point was Goku saying that he doesn't feel weaker doesn't have to mean that SSJ Goku=SSJG Goku. It could just be referring to his state of being. The same way that Goku wouldn't feel weaker if he was in base instead of using SSJ. He simply isn't using the extra power, he doesn't feel weaker in the sense that he can't access that level of power.

Similarly, Beerus stated in the movie that Goku didn't get much weaker from SSJG to Base despite the power gap being over 400x. A statement like that is relative.

Pre god base goku: 1
pre god ssj goku: 50
pre god ssj2 goku: 100
pre god ssj3 goku: 400

SSJG goku: 1,000,000

post god base goku: 1,000
post god ssj goku: 50,000
post god ssj2 goku: 100,000
post god ssj3 goku: 400,000

It would still be more appropriate to compare Goku after he lost SSJG to SSJG Goku instead of his pre god self.

It would be more since Super Saiyan God is a multiplier and Goku's base power got stronger, meaning his Super Saiyan God form is naturally stronger, especially since Beerus acknowledge little to no power drop within Goku after he lost his god form. And it was so brief that it's impossible to do a power comparison between his performance before he lost the form.

It is more than a state of being since in the movie, Goku fought Beerus for several minutes and had to be told he lost his god power, which shocked Goku. He didn't realized at all that he lost it because his overall power didn't drop. If Goku dropped out of Super Saiyan in the middle of a fight, he would feel the power different. It was more than a sense of being in this context.

And my original point is that Goku having Super Saiyan God in the manga despite necessarily mean that Goku didn't absorbed its power since that is what happened in the movie. In other words, Goku's base form in the manga is not the same as it was during the beginning of BOG, weaker than Freeza according to Beerus. It would be much stronger, but not up to par with what he was as a Super Saiyan God if we follow the movie.

Nothing within the context of the film itself indicates that the SSJG at the end of the fight was different than the one he used earlier. The implication is that Goku tapped into the SSJG power he had lost in order to stop the attack. He had no control of the form at that time, so saying that he was drawing more power from it is baseless.

Goku didn't realize that he turned into a Super Saiyan from Base either since he didn't realize that he lost SSJG. It was subconscious. He didn't even realize that he got 50x stronger.
He didn't notice since his state of being didn't change. Him utilizing less power in his post god form than SSJG is obvious.
Goku transforming into SSJG at all would mean that he absorbed the power. An argument like that would be self defeating.

[HeroR]

Nothing within the context of the film itself indicates that the SSJG at the end of the fight was different than the one he used earlier. The implication is that Goku tapped into the SSJG power he had lost in order to stop the attack. He had no control of the form at that time, so saying that he was drawing more power from it is baseless.

Goku didn't realize that he turned into a Super Saiyan from Base either since he didn't realize that he lost SSJG. It was subconscious. He didn't even realize that he got 50x stronger.
He didn't notice since his state of being didn't change. Him utilizing less power in his post god form than SSJG is obvious.
Goku transforming into SSJG at all would mean that he absorbed the power. An argument like that would be self defeating.

The context of the film had Goku go Super Saiyan God for less than a second to stop an energy attack, so it's impossible to say that he's at the exact level he was when he fought Beerus, especially since Goku's base form is stronger than it was before. And it isn't baseless since Toriyama stated that Super Saiyan God is a multiplier. He said anyone could become a Super Saiyan God, but depending on how strong they were, it would effect how strong Super Saiyan God was like any Super Saiyan form. For example, Super Saiyan God Goten would be no where near as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku. So why would Goku becoming a Super Saiyan God again only make him as powerful as he was before if his overall power went up?

Goku going Super Saiyan God again only means that he can tap into the transformation like a normal Super Saiyan, after he got empowered by it.

[Bullza]

SS Goku Pre-Retcon = SSGod Goku
SS Goku Post-Retcon = SS Goku Buu Saga

Well if there was a retcon then he should still be comfortably stronger than his Buu saga level.

Buu saga Base Goku was weaker than Frieza. In the last episode Goku fought on par with Gohan. Base Gohan is on par with Piccolo. Piccolo trained so he'd be stronger than he was in Z.

So it'd mean all the training Goku did on Beerus' planet with the weighted suit and all the sparring with Vegeta would have still accounted for a large growth in power. All of that wouldn't have to be retconned aswell.

Plus with Trunks being on par with Goku then the scene where it was implied that he's stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks could still work too.

[ChiefWamsutta]

What if you made the argument that Goku and Vegeta had Godly Bases, but as time passed from the Copy-Vegeta arc to the Future Trunks arc it was absorbed into their SSBlue forms?

This could be a way to explain the In-Universe reason for the Retcon Theory.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Nothing within the context of the film itself indicates that the SSJG at the end of the fight was different than the one he used earlier. The implication is that Goku tapped into the SSJG power he had lost in order to stop the attack. He had no control of the form at that time, so saying that he was drawing more power from it is baseless.

Goku didn't realize that he turned into a Super Saiyan from Base either since he didn't realize that he lost SSJG. It was subconscious. He didn't even realize that he got 50x stronger.
He didn't notice since his state of being didn't change. Him utilizing less power in his post god form than SSJG is obvious.
Goku transforming into SSJG at all would mean that he absorbed the power. An argument like that would be self defeating.

The context of the film had Goku go Super Saiyan God for less than a second to stop an energy attack, so it's impossible to say that he's at the exact level he was when he fought Beerus, especially since Goku's base form is stronger than it was before. And it isn't baseless since Toriyama stated that Super Saiyan God is a multiplier. He said anyone could become a Super Saiyan God, but depending on how strong they were, it would effect how strong Super Saiyan God was like any Super Saiyan form. For example, Super Saiyan God Goten would be no where near as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku. So why would Goku becoming a Super Saiyan God again only make him as powerful as he was before if his overall power went up?

Goku going Super Saiyan God again only means that he can tap into the transformation like a normal Super Saiyan, after he got empowered by it.

Nothing implies that his level was any different. The SSJG we saw at the end of the fight isn't implied to be any different than the one seen throughout the fight. Nothing Toriyama said contradicts what I'm saying.

Yes after he learned to control the power through training, he is shown using it in the way that you describe, but the SSJG burst he used at the end of the film is the same power that the viewers were shown throughout the film.

[HeroR]

What if you made the argument that Goku and Vegeta had Godly Bases, but as time passed from the Copy-Vegeta arc to the Future Trunks arc it was absorbed into their SSBlue forms?

This could be a way to explain the In-Universe reason for the Retcon Theory.

If they had god ki in their base form, no one would be able to sense them. That clearly wasn't the case since everyone could sense Goku fight Freeza until he turned god.

Nothing implies that his level was any different. The SSJG we saw at the end of the fight isn't implied to be any different than the one seen throughout the fight. Nothing Toriyama said contradicts what I'm saying.

Yes after he learned to control the power through training, he is shown using it in the way that you describe, but the SSJG burst he used at the end of the film is the same power that the viewers were shown throughout the film.

Nothing also implied they were the same either.

SS Goku Pre-Retcon = SSGod Goku
SS Goku Post-Retcon = SS Goku Buu Saga

Well if there was a retcon then he should still be comfortably stronger than his Buu saga level.

Buu saga Base Goku was weaker than Frieza. In the last episode Goku fought on par with Gohan. Base Gohan is on par with Piccolo. Piccolo trained so he'd be stronger than he was in Z.

So it'd mean all the training Goku did on Beerus' planet with the weighted suit and all the sparring with Vegeta would have still accounted for a large growth in power. All of that wouldn't have to be retconned aswell.

Plus with Trunks being on par with Goku then the scene where it was implied that he's stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks could still work too.

Piccolo had no major power growth despite training for seven years before the Buu Saga. He was still weaker than Perfect Cell. So any growth he gained in Super isn't dramatic since no one mentions it, not even in a throw away line. At least Goku acknowledged that Gohan got stronger when he asked to joined the U6 tournament by looking at his facial expression.

And again, first from Freeza put holes through Super Saiyan Gohan without barely trying and Gohan was already well above Piccolo who is at least as strong as Semi-Perfect Cell. Do you honestly think true form Freeza was weaker or equal to Super Saiyan Goku during the Buu Saga?

A retcon doesn't erased events that has already happened. A retcon needs some form of in-universe acknowledgement, especially since this happened in a major arc.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

What if you made the argument that Goku and Vegeta had Godly Bases, but as time passed from the Copy-Vegeta arc to the Future Trunks arc it was absorbed into their SSBlue forms?

This could be a way to explain the In-Universe reason for the Retcon Theory.

If they had god ki in their base form, no one would be able to sense them. That clearly wasn't the case since everyone could sense Goku fight Freeza until he turned god.

Nothing implies that his level was any different. The SSJG we saw at the end of the fight isn't implied to be any different than the one seen throughout the fight. Nothing Toriyama said contradicts what I'm saying.

Yes after he learned to control the power through training, he is shown using it in the way that you describe, but the SSJG burst he used at the end of the film is the same power that the viewers were shown throughout the film.

Nothing also implied they were the same either.

SS Goku Pre-Retcon = SSGod Goku
SS Goku Post-Retcon = SS Goku Buu Saga

Well if there was a retcon then he should still be comfortably stronger than his Buu saga level.

Buu saga Base Goku was weaker than Frieza. In the last episode Goku fought on par with Gohan. Base Gohan is on par with Piccolo. Piccolo trained so he'd be stronger than he was in Z.

So it'd mean all the training Goku did on Beerus' planet with the weighted suit and all the sparring with Vegeta would have still accounted for a large growth in power. All of that wouldn't have to be retconned aswell.

Plus with Trunks being on par with Goku then the scene where it was implied that he's stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks could still work too.

Piccolo had no major power growth despite training for seven years before the Buu Saga. He was still weaker than Perfect Cell. So any growth he gained in Super isn't dramatic since no one mentions it, not even in a throw away line. At least Goku acknowledged that Gohan got stronger when he asked to joined the U6 tournament by looking at his facial expression.

If nothing in the films context implies that the final SSJG burst was any stronger, then that means it was the same. The face value demonstration is that he used the same power shown earlier. No reason to think otherwise outside of an agenda.

[ChiefWamsutta]

What if you made the argument that Goku and Vegeta had Godly Bases, but as time passed from the Copy-Vegeta arc to the Future Trunks arc it was absorbed into their SSBlue forms?

This could be a way to explain the In-Universe reason for the Retcon Theory.

If they had god ki in their base form, no one would be able to sense them. That clearly wasn't the case since everyone could sense Goku fight Freeza until he turned god.

I'm using the word Godly Bases to describe them. Everyone here understands that Krillin and co. wouldn't be able to sense them in the Frieza fight. That has been talked to death.

The "Saiyan Beyond God" forms, for lack of a better term, that Goku used against Hit, Copy-Vegeta used, and Goku vs. Monaka-Beerus. We may never see them again because it was absorbed into their SSBlue form.

[HeroR]

If nothing in the films context implies that the final SSJG burst was any stronger, then that means it was the same. The face value demonstration is that he used the same power shown earlier. No reason to think otherwise outside of an agenda.

That is ignoring that Goku's base is stronger and Super Saiyan God is a multiplier. And what agenda?

What if you made the argument that Goku and Vegeta had Godly Bases, but as time passed from the Copy-Vegeta arc to the Future Trunks arc it was absorbed into their SSBlue forms?

This could be a way to explain the In-Universe reason for the Retcon Theory.

If they had god ki in their base form, no one would be able to sense them. That clearly wasn't the case since everyone could sense Goku fight Freeza until he turned god.

I'm using the word Godly Bases to describe them. Everyone here understands that Krillin and co. wouldn't be able to sense them in the Frieza fight. That has been talked to death.

The "Saiyan Beyond God" forms, for lack of a better term, that Goku used against Hit, Copy-Vegeta used, and Goku vs. Monaka-Beerus. We may never see them again because it was absorbed into their SSBlue form.

So the base form that Goku used against Hit was way stronger than the base form he used against Botamo and Frost, yet no one in or out of universe acknowledge this? And why would that make their base forms weaker especially since all Super Saiyan forms are multiplier of a Saiyan's base.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

If nothing in the films context implies that the final SSJG burst was any stronger, then that means it was the same. The face value demonstration is that he used the same power shown earlier. No reason to think otherwise outside of an agenda.

That is ignoring that Goku's base is stronger and Super Saiyan God is a multiplier. And what agenda?

If they had god ki in their base form, no one would be able to sense them. That clearly wasn't the case since everyone could sense Goku fight Freeza until he turned god.

I'm using the word Godly Bases to describe them. Everyone here understands that Krillin and co. wouldn't be able to sense them in the Frieza fight. That has been talked to death.

The "Saiyan Beyond God" forms, for lack of a better term, that Goku used against Hit, Copy-Vegeta used, and Goku vs. Monaka-Beerus. We may never see them again because it was absorbed into their SSBlue form.

So the base form that Goku used against Hit was way stronger than the base form he used against Botamo and Frost, yet no one in or out of universe acknowledge this? And why would that make their base forms weaker especially since all Super Saiyan forms are multiplier of a Saiyan's base.

No one said that god isn't a multiplier. Nothing in the films context implies that the final SSJG burst was any different from what he used before though. He only used his god form in the way you describe after he learned to control the power through training.

[HeroR]

No one said that god isn't a multiplier. Nothing in the films context implies that the final SSJG burst was any different from what he used before though. He only used his god form in the way you describe after he learned to control the power through training.

The problem is that Super Saiyan God was there for seconds before it disappeared. How can you even begin to compared it what it was before Goku absorbed its power. And Goku's base form got that strong even before he trained with Whis.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No one said that god isn't a multiplier. Nothing in the films context implies that the final SSJG burst was any different from what he used before though. He only used his god form in the way you describe after he learned to control the power through training.

The problem is that Super Saiyan God was there for seconds before it disappeared. How can you even begin to compared it what it was before Goku absorbed its power. And Goku's base form got that strong even before he trained with Whis.

Because as I said before nothing in the context of the film would lead you to believe that the final SSJG burst was any different from what was introduced before, so there is no reason for that idea to even be brought to the table. And no that doesn't mean that SSJG isn't a multiplier.

Goku's base form was as strong as what before he trained with Whis? As strong as SSJG? Not even close. Intention wise, Goku most likely isn't meant to be that strong in base.

Tien saw Goku's SSB against Frieza and wondered if he was stronger than his previous SSJG state because of the color. There's no real reason for that line to be there is Goku already surpassed that level in base.
More likely than not, Toei's intention is that Goku is only supposed to be on that realm of power when he uses SSB.

[Bullza]

At least Goku acknowledged that Gohan got stronger when he asked to joined the U6 tournament by looking at his facial expression.

I'm not sure what you're trying to counter here. At the start of Super Base Goku was said to be weaker than Frieza. Piccolo was much stronger than Frieza. Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo in the Resurrection F saga and probably got strong through training and so Goku would be on par with that.

As in his training with Whis made him go from weaker than Frieza to stronger Piccolo or he got several times stronger.

Do you honestly think true form Freeza was weaker or equal to Super Saiyan Goku during the Buu Saga?

Not at all. In fact I had Frieza in his first form as being in between SSJ2 and SSJ2 Gotenks. If he was stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan he was certainly stronger than Super Saiyan Goku.

A retcon needs some form of in-universe acknowledgement, especially since this happened in a major arc.

Yeah if the series was well written perhaps. If there was indeed a retcon I wouldn't expect a good explanation as to why Goku was nerfed I think they'd just nerf him and hope the young kids watching wouldn't really notice.

The manga always had the more straightforward and logical power scaling. It wouldn't be a bad thing if the anime tried to fit with that scaling instead. I hate the idea of a retcon but if it can start to make sense of things finally then I'd be all for it.

[HeroR]

At least Goku acknowledged that Gohan got stronger when he asked to joined the U6 tournament by looking at his facial expression.

I'm not sure what you're trying to counter here. At the start of Super Base Goku was said to be weaker than Frieza. Piccolo was much stronger than Frieza. Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo in the Resurrection F saga and probably got strong through training and so Goku would be on par with that.

As in his training with Whis made him go from weaker than Frieza to stronger Piccolo or he got several times stronger.

Do you honestly think true form Freeza was weaker or equal to Super Saiyan Goku during the Buu Saga?

Not at all. In fact I had Frieza in his first form as being in between SSJ2 and SSJ2 Gotenks. If he was stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan he was certainly stronger than Super Saiyan Goku.

A retcon needs some form of in-universe acknowledgement, especially since this happened in a major arc.

Yeah if the series was well written perhaps. If there was indeed a retcon I wouldn't expect a good explanation as to why Goku was nerfed I think they'd just nerf him and hope the young kids watching wouldn't really notice.

The manga always had the more straightforward and logical power scaling. It wouldn't be a bad thing if the anime tried to fit with that scaling instead. I hate the idea of a retcon but if it can start to make sense of things finally then I'd be all for it.

In Episode 30, Goku had his huge smile on his face once he observed and knew that he has been training acknowledging that Gohan got stronger. Goku was also willing to take Buu over Piccolo. Piccolo was literally Goku's last choice. Goku became stronger than Freeza in base form the moment he absorbed godhood. He didn't need Whis for that, especially since Vegeta spent six months just trying to catch up to where Goku was.

We never saw Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks, so that is kind of a blank reference like saying, stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto.

I highly doubt that, otherwise they wouldn't have gone out of their way to explained why Vegetto defused early and the different in time travel compared to Z. They would just let these things happened. Not sure why you're suggesting the series isn't well-written and trying to pretend past events didn't happened. Also, the strong base was reinforced in the anime when Gowasu compared Super Saiyan 2 Goku to a God of Destruction. If Goku's base form was only as powerful as it was during the Buu Saga or even four times stronger, Goku's Super Saiyan 2 would be at best as strong as North and South Supreme Kais who were able to fight Kid Buu who is about even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, with South Kai being the strongest. That is far from the Gods of Destruction we have seen. Goku also reference Copy-Vegeta in Episode 56, so the anime isn't pretending these things didn't happened. Not to mentioned the anime had Goku beat Hit without even using the Kaioken, meaning that Goku is either 2x or 10x stronger than he was during the Champa Saga.

The power-scaling in the manga is extremely flawed since you have stuff like Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta beating up Super Saiyan 1/2 Black. Him jobbing that hard after the manga went out of the way to say that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku doesn't make sense since why would Black even bother to transform? He could have just fought Vegeta in base. And then he can beat up Vegeta without even transforming into Rose, something that not even the anime did. And it's still an assumption that Goku and Vegeta's base are not super strong based on Goku having Super Saiyan God, despite him gaining that form for a few seconds in the movie, while still having a base and Super Saiyan form that could keep up with Beerus.

[SansrivaaL]

I think the reason why Goku went SSJ against Gohan wasnt because he needed to and that he wanted to humor Gohan, but as part of his training, I mean the way Krillin told him that no going SSJ in their match screams that he was going to transform, soon after Krillin said no going SSJ he said "It wouldnt be training for me...." he does want to raise his ki and stamina, maybe he can have a better feel about it if he was in his SSJ form.

[HeroR]

I think the reason why Goku went SSJ against Gohan wasnt because he needed to and that he wanted to humor Gohan, but as part of his training, I mean the way Krillin told him that no going SSJ in their match screams that he was going to transform, soon after Krillin said no going SSJ he said "It wouldnt be training for me...." he does want to raise his ki and stamina, maybe he can have a better feel about it if he was in his SSJ form.

This is part of why I don't think Gohan is even with Gohan, that and the god ki sensing. Goku being upset that he couldn't go Super Saiyan against Krillin stuck out. He could be trying to make Super Saiyan even more efficient, since that is usually his in-between form before Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and he is preparing for Zen'o's tournament where Super Saiyan was the most used form.

Could be completely wrong and maybe Gohan is even with Goku in the same transformations, but I personally need more evidence. We do know that Gohan in general has gotten much stronger.

[TheMikado]

Bros ... there is no other way to explain anything.

1) Retcon Theory doesn't have an in-universe answer.
2) There is no explanation for how strong some characters get.
3) One-Base Theory has gaping holes in it.
4) Two-Base Theory doesn't have visual evidence or is ever talked about.

There is nothing to explain any of this. We are screwed.

We need an explanation in the next arc.

This is the answer. I'm not sure why this is even a discussion anymore.
The only reason the Retcon Theory is not being accepted is because they didnt blatantly come out and say "We made a huge mistake"
What if, and just go with me for now...
The executives, in an effort to not have more criticisms and have it tank worse than GT, avoided acknowledging any issues at all with the production and pretended like the audience will buy it and just go along with it and convince themselves its still amazing... I knew its farfetched and they clearly have openly and readily acknowledged any problems theyve had with the production before... Oh wait...

So our only evidence right now is that they aren't admitting that there's a problem.. ok.

[Ki Breaker]

Bros ... there is no other way to explain anything.

1) Retcon Theory doesn't have an in-universe answer.
2) There is no explanation for how strong some characters get.
3) One-Base Theory has gaping holes in it.
4) Two-Base Theory doesn't have visual evidence or is ever talked about.

There is nothing to explain any of this. We are screwed.

We need an explanation in the next arc.

This is the answer. I'm not sure why this is even a discussion anymore.
The only reason the Retcon Theory is not being accepted is because they didnt blatantly come out and say "We made a huge mistake"
What if, and just go with me for now...
The executives, in an effort to not have more criticisms and have it tank worse than GT, avoided acknowledging any issues at all with the production and pretended like the audience will buy it and just go along with it and convince themselves its still amazing... I knew its farfetched and they clearly have openly and readily acknowledged any problems theyve had with the production before... Oh wait...

So our only evidence right now is that they aren't admitting that there's a problem.. ok.

This is what happens when more than one writers try to Interpret a story from the others work.. a huge mess up..

There is literally no logical explanation of power scaling now, they messed up big way now that even we can't explain this shit

[DBZ Macky]

We always have the closer-to-Toriyama's-vision Manga by Toyotarou. I have no problem accepting it as "canon" even if it isn't the main product.

[Bullza]

Goku became stronger than Freeza in base form the moment he absorbed godhood. He didn't need Whis for that, especially since Vegeta spent six months just trying to catch up to where Goku was.

Yeah obviously in the anime he was probably hundreds of times stronger than Piccolo in the Resurrection F saga. I'm saying in the event of a possible retcon in the anime where Goku was nerfed to being more similar to the manga where he did not absorb the power of God then he'd still be about or maybe stronger than Piccolo.

So if he was weaker than Frieza at the start of the series and he'd be around as strong as Piccolo now then he'd still be much stronger than he was in the Buu saga and it'd be thanks to all the training he did with Whis and Vegeta.

We never saw Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks, so that is kind of a blank reference like saying, stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto.

That's just where I happen to have him on my power list what with Gohan being stronger than Piccolo then Super Saiyan being 50 times stronger still and Frieza in his first form being stronger still. I have that as being in between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Gotenks is all.

Not sure why you're suggesting the series isn't well-written and trying to pretend past events didn't happened.

Of course they happened, it'd just be that they would be inconsistent now. There wouldn't be a good In-Universe explanation for it. Toei would have just decided to have made the power levels be more accurate with Toriyama's interpretation if that actually is his interpretation.

Also, the strong base was reinforced in the anime when Gowasu compared Super Saiyan 2 Goku to a God of Destruction. If Goku's base form was only as powerful as it was during the Buu Saga or even four times stronger, Goku's Super Saiyan 2 would be at best as strong as North and South Supreme Kais who were able to fight Kid Buu who is about even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, with South Kai being the strongest. That is far from the Gods of Destruction we have seen.

Gowasu's line is pretty debatable on what he meant. And as I said above Goku's Base form would still be nothing like it was in the Buu saga because he's stronger than Piccolo. So Super Saiyan 2 Goku would be considerably above the Kai's and also about on par with Gotenks and Super Buu.

We've only seen two Gods of Destruction anyway and they were twins. Some could be ants compared to Beerus and some could make them look like ants.

You're kinda over thinking this whole idea to be honest.