"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Freeza9000]

And that still doesn't explain why he didn't used the Super Dragon Balls since the Zero Mortal Plan would have gone faster instead of messing with Trunks.

You made me think about that image someone posted months ago with Black just after getting Goku's body saying "I'm finally one step closer to eradicate all mortals!", then Super Shenron asks "Why didn't you just wish for that?" and Black facepalms.

Well, the person that made/posted the image obviously didn't even pay attention to this scene.

[LuckyCat]

Since (Cell) was born from a computer, Cell should have higher than average intelligence and Goku isn't tech savvy, hence my computer and iPad example.

Cell was created to be a fighter, though. There's really no material that supports him being good with computers. It's not like he hacked the time machine's database and learned how to pilot it. He literally just pushed a button.

[FortuneSSJ]

-Chapter 20-

Awesome chapter!! A much better one than the colossal fanservice for Vegeta fanboys that was the previous one. Some pages had a beautiful composition too.

Black is awesome again in the manga. His fight against Vegeta is finally great here.
SSB Goku vs Zamasu is terribly subpar compared to the anime though.

I like how Zamasu is using the same abilities than Kibito and U7 Kaioshin, and I love how they are cheating to make Black stronger quickly.

I don't like how Toyotaro draws the SSB aura. Those effects that he adds to the aura still look like water.

FT Trunks knowing Taiyoken by Gohan is bullshit. Future Gohan never used it. Why would FT Gohan teach him something he never used it?! It's the same thing than Goku teaching Uub the Garlic Gun...Future Gohan never used the Makankosappo even though he should know about it, will FT Trunks pull off a Makankosappo next?!

On the other hand FT Trunks having the Garlic Gun and Final Flash in the anime makes sense, because both are techniques used by his father who trained with him twice.
One of them an entire year.

Kid Trunks using Kamehameha in Bio-Broly Movie is actually more believable than this.

I like the anime version more where FT Mai and FT Yajirobe are the ones that help them to escape. Excluding U7 Kaioshin, Toei used all characters much better so far.

Goku reverting back to SSJ is stupid. Whis already told him to not drop his guard and Black was still there kicking Vegeta's ass.
The transition to it was also badly done. For a moment I thought it was an error and Toyotaro had forgotten to ink Goku's hair in that panel.

Looks like Mafuba is a thing in the manga, because it just makes sense to bring that up when you're dealing with a Immortal Villain. You aren't as forgetful as people make you out to be, Akira Toriyama. Good job! Still, Piccolo/Roshi/Tenshinhan were better choices to bring that up than Goku so I like the anime version more.

FT Trunks stabbing Immortal Zamasu from behind was savage.

The last panel is creepy, but I love it. Great cliffhanger! And it's cool to know that Toyotaro is not rushing everything.
I was expecting Merged zamasu to debut in this chapter already but fortunately looks like I was wrong.

It woluld be hilarious if FT Trunks just died right there. And it would even funnier how the people that always praise the manga and shit on Toei would convince themselves that would be a better ending for his character than the anime version.

Some things aside, I finally loved a DBS chapter again!

[Gig]

Goku reverting back to SSJ is stupid. Whis already told him to not drop his guard and Black was still there kicking Vegeta's ass.
The transition to it was also badly done. For a moment I thought it was an error and Toyotaro had forgotten to ink Goku's hair in that panel.

I didn't notice that at all, but you're right! After Zamasu got stabbed, Goku goes SSJ (maybe he wanted to be on a level more similar to his opponent, to have a fair match... and at the moment he thought Zamasu was seriously wounded). Which is very stupid, considering the huge drawback SSJB has got in the manga: if he needed to go Blue again for any reason, he would have been able to use just 1/10 of his usual power! Maybe he may still have been able to use his God (red) form without drawbacks (we have no statements about it), however probably that would not have been enough against Black...


PS: I find it a bit odd that the discussion focused more about time machine driving (that I just mentioned as a small note) than about the fact that Zenkai seems to not work anymore on Vegeta and Goku due to them already pushing their bodies to the limit, while Black can use Zenkai past that limit... which sounds a bit strange to me.

PPS: About not just wishing for eradicating all the mortals: authors needed something to show us. If Zamasu had got a such cheap and immediate victory, Future Trunks would have been dead immediately, and would not have been able to go in the past to search for help. Hence, no "Future Trunks" saga.
Also:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... stShootHim
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... yAddiction

[HeroR]

Goku reverting back to SSJ is stupid. Whis already told him to not drop his guard and Black was still there kicking Vegeta's ass.
The transition to it was also badly done. For a moment I thought it was an error and Toyotaro had forgotten to ink Goku's hair in that panel.

I didn't notice that at all, but you're right! After Zamasu got stabbed, Goku goes SSJ (maybe he wanted to be on a level more similar to his opponent, to have a fair match... and at the moment he thought Zamasu was seriously wounded). Which is very stupid, considering the huge drawback SSJB has got in the manga: if he needed to go Blue again for any reason, he would have been able to use just 1/10 of his usual power! Maybe he may still have been able to use his God (red) form without drawbacks (we have no statements about it), however probably that would not have been enough against Black...


PS: I find it a bit odd that the discussion focused more about time machine driving (that I just mentioned as a small note) than about the fact that Zenkai seems to not work anymore on Vegeta and Goku due to them already pushing their bodies to the limit, while Black can use Zenkai past that limit... which sounds a bit strange to me.

PPS: About not just wishing for eradicating all the mortals: authors needed something to show us. If Zamasu had got a such cheap and immediate victory, Future Trunks would have been dead immediately, and would not have been able to go in the past to search for help. Hence, no "Future Trunks" saga.
Also:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... stShootHim
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... yAddiction

Black was getting used to his new body, which kind of explains why he gets stronger from being hurt. And Goku and Vegeta getting no boost from near death has been known since at least the Android Saga. Fans just kept insisting they still existed in some meaningful way, even when we had Buu say that Gohan didn't get stronger after Denda healed him.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Fans just kept insisting they still existed in some meaningful way, even when we had Buu say that Gohan didn't get stronger after Denda healed him.

Gohan already had his potential unlocked. As in, he was at his absolute best, and couldn't get stronger by any known means at the time. It wouldn't make sense if he had gotten a Zenkai, especially a noteworthy one.

Even though they hadn't been relevant in a long time, there was still no indication before Chapter 20 that they had stopped altogether.

[HeroR]

Fans just kept insisting they still existed in some meaningful way, even when we had Buu say that Gohan didn't get stronger after Denda healed him.

Gohan already had his potential unlocked. As in, he was at his absolute best, and couldn't get stronger by any known means at the time. It wouldn't make sense if he had gotten a Zenkai, especially a noteworthy one.

Even though they hadn't been relevant in a long time, there was still no indication before Chapter 20 that they had stopped altogether.

It was never stated that Saiyans getting power-ups from near death was related to potential. We also knew that Saiyans didn't get boosts anymore past the Frieza Saga since Future Gohan and Future Trunks have been beating to near death by the androids, yet they never surpassed until Trunks went to the past.

So, those boosts stopped being a thing a long time ago, so this chapter didn't reveal anything that wasn't readily apparent.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It was never stated that Saiyans getting power-ups from near death was related to potential.

I don't think you have a working understanding of the word potential.

[Gig]

Black was getting used to his new body, which kind of explains why he gets stronger from being hurt. And Goku and Vegeta getting no boost from near death has been known since at least the Android Saga.

Getting used to it more and more has got sense (even he mentions that it becomes more "his" body each time his cells regenerate). May also imply that he will have an "upper limit" somewhere, after completely getting used to it.
While in the anime Black mentioned being accustomed to Goku's fighting style (after their first fight), in the manga they directly refer to saiyans' ability to become stronger after near death (they do not mention "zenkai" because that is not an official term, AFAIK). So it looks like it's a combination of Zenkai and getting used to the body. But it's still a bit odd the two things allow him to go beyond the real Goku.

It's just nitpicking though... there is still more exaplanation than in the anime.

[Gig]

It was never stated that Saiyans getting power-ups from near death was related to potential.

I don't think you have a working understanding of the word potential.

Maybe "potential" there referred to the "unlocked potential" powerup that Krilin and Gohan got on Namek?
That should not be taken too literally, however, IMHO, considering that:
- The plot at that time required them some way to somehow approach the level of their enemies. After the powerup, they were still "behind" the Elite of Frieza's army, but at least got much closer than before. They needed that powerup to explain why they have not been one-shotted by Elite soldiers. Then it has not been referenced again (otherwise, maybe Dende may have applied it to other Z fighers after becoming Earth's Kami?).
- If taken too literally, "unlocking the potential" may imply the person automatically reached the maximum level they could obtain in their life. But we know they (especially Gohan) got much higher power levels later. [Note: I do not remember the exact words about how that powerup worked... maybe they mentioned something like it may have also helped them to further enhance with time and training, after the initial boost?]
- At that time, maybe the author was not even sure to continue the story after the Frieza saga (IIRC, initial plans were to end the story there), so Gohan later becoming so much stronger that the power level he got after Namek powerup looked like nothing, may be considered a "retcon"?
- Mystic Gohan powerup in the Boo saga seems something similar to the "unlock potential" powerup (although with a very different and longer execution!), so if all of his latent potential had already been unlocked, how could a similar technique work again?

Just to say that I would not take that old "unlock potential" thing too literally...

UPDATE: reading this again:

Fans just kept insisting they still existed in some meaningful way, even when we had Buu say that Gohan didn't get stronger after Denda healed him.

Gohan already had his potential unlocked. As in, he was at his absolute best, and couldn't get stronger by any known means at the time. It wouldn't make sense if he had gotten a Zenkai, especially a noteworthy one.

Even though they hadn't been relevant in a long time, there was still no indication before Chapter 20 that they had stopped altogether.

I notice you were referring to the Boo Saga Powerup, more than the Frieza Saga Powerup.
However, a consideration still applies: if Gohan managed to get stronger than the Namek powerup by training, then he may probably do the same also after Old Kai powerup (if he doesn't drop training, of course).

[HeroR]

It was never stated that Saiyans getting power-ups from near death was related to potential.

I don't think you have a working understanding of the word potential.

I do, thank you very much.

The Saiyans' ability to grow stronger is based on the idea of 'what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger'. In this case, they become stronger so they can survive. It's like your body gaining immunity or a stronger resistance after getting over a virus. Gaining an immunity or a resistance doesn't have anything to do with potential. If it did, Gohan should have gotten the biggest near-death boosts out of everyone since he has the most potential. However, like any immune response, it has limits and eventually reached the point where it can't keep up anymore.

[Nejishiki]

Then why was he looking for a timeline without Beerus if he could kill all the Supreme Kais even in his unfamiliar body?

And that still doesn't explain why he didn't used the Super Dragon Balls since the Zero Mortal Plan would have gone faster instead of messing with Trunks.

I previously outlined the scenario for Goku Black's actions. I'm not really interested in what his "perfect save file" run would consist of. His year with Future Trunks benefited him & the swiftness of their plan was never put under question by any character. At any rate, concerning new inquiries, he murdered eleven other Kaioshin so it stands to reason Universe 7's Kaioshin is around the same level. He approached a scene where Kaioshin was killed for him already, making it convenient. His particular concern with Beerus isn't specified but it's likely he knew Beerus' involvement would guarantee his death (as made evident in Goku's era) hence his paranoia of "alive Beerus eras".

PS: I find it a bit odd that the discussion focused more about time machine driving (that I just mentioned as a small note) than about the fact that Zenkai seems to not work anymore on Vegeta and Goku due to them already pushing their bodies to the limit, while Black can use Zenkai past that limit... which sounds a bit strange to me.

In Goku Black's case, the "scars" are being healed with Zamasu's "skin". The body is molded into something new, which is a vessel that can gain additional power for that particular Kaio soul.

[HeroR]

Then why was he looking for a timeline without Beerus if he could kill all the Supreme Kais even in his unfamiliar body?

And that still doesn't explain why he didn't used the Super Dragon Balls since the Zero Mortal Plan would have gone faster instead of messing with Trunks.

I previously outlined the scenario for Goku Black's actions. I'm not really interested in what his "perfect save file" run would consist of. His year with Future Trunks benefited him & the swiftness of their plan was never put under question by any character. At any rate, concerning new inquiries, he murdered eleven other Kaioshin so it stands to reason Universe 7's Kaioshin is around the same level. He approached a scene where Kaioshin was killed for him already, making it convenient. His particular concern with Beerus isn't specified but it's likely he knew Beerus' involvement would guarantee his death (as made evident in Goku's era) hence his paranoia of "alive Beerus eras".

PS: I find it a bit odd that the discussion focused more about time machine driving (that I just mentioned as a small note) than about the fact that Zenkai seems to not work anymore on Vegeta and Goku due to them already pushing their bodies to the limit, while Black can use Zenkai past that limit... which sounds a bit strange to me.

In Goku Black's case, the "scars" are being healed with Zamasu's "skin". The body is molded into something new, which is a vessel that can gain additional power for that particular Kaio soul.

But that is my point. He didn't have to go years to learn his body. The moment he realized that he couldn't used all of Goku's abilities and had to run to another timeline, he could have used the Super Dragon Balls again. He didn't need to bully Trunks around for over a year.

[Nejishiki]

Well, Goku Black is a bit of a jerk considering he enjoyed bothering Future Trunks. I didn't think that had to be said though.

[The gr]

Well, Goku Black is a bit of a jerk considering he enjoyed bothering Future Trunks. I didn't think that had to be said though.

Goku black just love torturing trunks he is sadistic in both the anime and manga oh and in chapter 20 Mai has ki that really strange

[Duo]

Well, Goku Black is a bit of a jerk considering he enjoyed bothering Future Trunks. I didn't think that had to be said though.

Goku black just love torturing trunks he is sadistic in both the anime and manga oh and in chapter 20 Mai has ki that really strange

Why? All humans have ki.

[Neon Z]

It was never stated that Saiyans getting power-ups from near death was related to potential.

I don't think you have a working understanding of the word potential.

Goku had all of his potential unlocked when he faced Piccolo Daimao. And yet near death power ups were only introduced two arcs later. "Potential" has no meaning in Dragonball.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It was never stated that Saiyans getting power-ups from near death was related to potential.

I don't think you have a working understanding of the word potential.

Goku had all of his potential unlocked when he faced Piccolo Daimao. And yet near death power ups were only unlocked two arcs later. "Potential" has no meaning in Dragonball.

Potential in Dragon Ball has consistency, but it isn't static. In Dragon Ball, someone's potential is the best possible version of that person at a given point in time. This means that Goku's potential in the Piccolo Arc may not be the same as his potential on Namek. If Gohan were to get a Zenkai now, it would make sense, but not right after he had all of his talent drawn out. Even if we assume that it still applies, it would have to be minimal.

[TKA]

Oh hell yeah. The manga is so much more logical than the anime that I can't help but have a grin while reading it. This is essential Super material.

Explaining that [spoiler]Zamasu is much weaker than everyone else, so he relies on magic? Great.

Black can't access all of Goku's power, so he needs his ass beat to force the power of the body out? Great. Finally having a source outside of the daizenshuu explain the limit of Zenkais? Fantastic.

Giving a source for where Trunks got his techniques (Taiyoken specifically) from? Great.

I don't remember if the anime had Black say he was letting Trunks live so he could help Black to get stronger, but him doing it here? Great.[/spoiler]

Simply wonderful.

[The gr]

I just love the fact that zamasu and goku black has physic powers they look so cool with it and I love the fact goku say to zamasu he's a weak scrub and stabs zamasu and he like yup I'm done here and he powered down and then zamasu survive that attack and then he burn the senzu bag and paralyse goku that scene was awesome and hilarious