Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Ki Breaker]

We always have the closer-to-Toriyama's-vision Manga by Toyotarou. I have no problem accepting it as "canon" even if it isn't the main product.

You might accept it as Canon but it isn't, super is.. and that's bad..

[SansrivaaL]

We always have the closer-to-Toriyama's-vision Manga by Toyotarou. I have no problem accepting it as "canon" even if it isn't the main product.

You might accept it as Canon but it isn't, super is.. and that's bad..

^The sad truth. This is one of the times where I wished the manga was the main product with the anime following its footsteps.
I adore Toyo's Goku and hate Toei's Goku, they did the opposite of progress with his character.

[HeroR]

We always have the closer-to-Toriyama's-vision Manga by Toyotarou. I have no problem accepting it as "canon" even if it isn't the main product.

That is nothing suggesting that Toyotarou's is closer to Toriyama's vision. Both the anime and the manga are based on the same outline, which is barebones, and they have to fill in the gaps. One it technically no more 'canon' than the other. Fans just have to accept that the manga and the anime are different versions of the same story.

We always have the closer-to-Toriyama's-vision Manga by Toyotarou. I have no problem accepting it as "canon" even if it isn't the main product.

You might accept it as Canon but it isn't, super is.. and that's bad..

For you

Goku became stronger than Freeza in base form the moment he absorbed godhood. He didn't need Whis for that, especially since Vegeta spent six months just trying to catch up to where Goku was.

Yeah obviously in the anime he was probably hundreds of times stronger than Piccolo in the Resurrection F saga. I'm saying in the event of a possible retcon in the anime where Goku was nerfed to being more similar to the manga where he did not absorb the power of God then he'd still be about or maybe stronger than Piccolo.

So if he was weaker than Frieza at the start of the series and he'd be around as strong as Piccolo now then he'd still be much stronger than he was in the Buu saga and it'd be thanks to all the training he did with Whis and Vegeta.

We never saw Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks, so that is kind of a blank reference like saying, stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto.

That's just where I happen to have him on my power list what with Gohan being stronger than Piccolo then Super Saiyan being 50 times stronger still and Frieza in his first form being stronger still. I have that as being in between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Gotenks is all.

Not sure why you're suggesting the series isn't well-written and trying to pretend past events didn't happened.

Of course they happened, it'd just be that they would be inconsistent now. There wouldn't be a good In-Universe explanation for it. Toei would have just decided to have made the power levels be more accurate with Toriyama's interpretation if that actually is his interpretation.

Also, the strong base was reinforced in the anime when Gowasu compared Super Saiyan 2 Goku to a God of Destruction. If Goku's base form was only as powerful as it was during the Buu Saga or even four times stronger, Goku's Super Saiyan 2 would be at best as strong as North and South Supreme Kais who were able to fight Kid Buu who is about even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, with South Kai being the strongest. That is far from the Gods of Destruction we have seen.

Gowasu's line is pretty debatable on what he meant. And as I said above Goku's Base form would still be nothing like it was in the Buu saga because he's stronger than Piccolo. So Super Saiyan 2 Goku would be considerably above the Kai's and also about on par with Gotenks and Super Buu.

We've only seen two Gods of Destruction anyway and they were twins. Some could be ants compared to Beerus and some could make them look like ants.

You're kinda over thinking this whole idea to be honest.

Which wouldn't make sense since Vegeta specifically spend six months with Whis. What was he doing the entire time if his base form was already equal to Goku's? And it's still an assumption that the manga had Goku not absorbed godhood since he used Super Saiyan God in the movie despite taking in its power. And if Goku was equal to Piccolo in his base form, why did he tell Piccolo that he outright stood no chance against Frost despite beating the mess out of him and Goku wasn't even hurt by Assault Form Frost in his base form.

That isn't how this works. When the anime filled the anime and the manga went against it, they ignored it and never reference the event in question again. Super have actively reference their breather episodes, so they're not pretending they don't exist. And if Toriyama retcon the power levels by nerfing Goku and Vegeta it would have been done a long time ago. If anything, Toei would just make everyone else stronger to be closed to Goku and Vegeta, not nerf them. Which is what Toriyama did when he boosted Piccolo during the Android Saga where he was capable to a Super Saiyan when before he got stomped by third form Freeza.

The strongest Supreme Kai in U7 traded hands with Kid Buu and another one fought Buff Buu, meaning that even Super Buu would still be within the realm of an extremely powerful Supreme Kai, not a Gods of Destruction who seems to be able to destroy universes. Even Super Buu at his best didn't have that kind of raw power. Saying someone of that power is like a God of Destruction from Gowasu, who has proven himself to be more knowledgeable than the U7's Supreme Kais, seems unlikely. So Zamaus in that regard wouldn't be that special compared to the strongest Supreme Kais in U7.

Weird that you're saying I am overthinking, while you think it's possible that the entire power scale got retcon without any in-universe acknowledgment and that Toriyaam would just nerf Goku and Vegeta without telling the anime staff.

[TheMikado]

I'll just say I don't remember the previous series being this controversial in terms of understanding whats happening in the story.. I know we thought Buu scaling was bad but this takes the cake. Worse consistency ever in the entire franchise.

[Bullza]

Which wouldn't make sense since Vegeta specifically spend six months with Whis. What was he doing the entire time if his base form was already equal to Goku's?

Nothing. That scene would also be inconsistent if there was a retcon. Goku would never have absorbed the power of God so Vegeta would not have needed the six months to catch up.

And if Goku was equal to Piccolo in his base form, why did he tell Piccolo that he outright stood no chance against Frost despite beating the mess out of him and Goku wasn't even hurt by Assault Form Frost in his base form.

That would mean that Goku in his Base form also stood no chance against Frost in his final form. He'd be above his third form but not his true form. That could fit with Vegeta still having to transform to beat a tired Frost.

And if Toriyama retcon the power levels by nerfing Goku and Vegeta it would have been done a long time ago.

Yeah it would have been exactly when he started working on the outline for the Universe Six saga because they weren't retconned in the Resurrection F movie and he wouldn't have retconned them after already working on the outkines so any retcon would have happened when he started working on Super.

If anything, Toei would just make everyone else stronger to be closed to Goku and Vegeta, not nerf them.

Which was done with Trunks and look at all the confusion there. There's also a lot who thought it was done with Piccolo which created the most confusion. If they start doing it with Buu and Gohan and Android 17 then it's gonna get ugly. That doesn't make much sense from a story point of view and belittles Super Saiyan God.

Gohan is on par with Goku and he definitely didn't get thousands of times stronger so Goku was nerfed whether just for that fight or from now we have to see.

Even Super Buu at his best didn't have that kind of raw power.

Then the God of Destruction wouldn't either. He could be weak for a God. They had a whole Universe 6 team and they differed massively in power. The Kai's differ hugely in power going by Zamasu. The Angels differ greatly if Whis can't even stand up to the Grand Priest so maybe the Gods do.

Or like I said Gowasu's comment didn't mean what you think it did.

Weird that you're saying I am overthinking

You're just overthinking the theory behind it. There might not have been any retcon whatsoever, this could just be some outlier in this one episode yet.

All it would be is that Toriyama retconned his power scale when he started working on Super. The manga followed this interpretation while the anime did not and now for whatever reason the anime would be trying to fix itself to match this retcon while hoping nobody notices.

[pacz360]

Which wouldn't make sense since Vegeta specifically spend six months with Whis. What was he doing the entire time if his base form was already equal to Goku's?

Nothing. That scene would also be inconsistent if there was a retcon. Goku would never have absorbed the power of God so Vegeta would not have needed the six months to catch up.

And if Goku was equal to Piccolo in his base form, why did he tell Piccolo that he outright stood no chance against Frost despite beating the mess out of him and Goku wasn't even hurt by Assault Form Frost in his base form.

That would mean that Goku in his Base form also stood no chance against Frost in his final form. He'd be above his third form but not his true form. That could fit with Vegeta still having to transform to beat a tired Frost.

And if Toriyama retcon the power levels by nerfing Goku and Vegeta it would have been done a long time ago.

Yeah it would have been exactly when he started working on the outline for the Universe Six saga because they weren't retconned in the Resurrection F movie and he wouldn't have retconned them after already working on the outkines so any retcon would have happened when he started working on Super.

If anything, Toei would just make everyone else stronger to be closed to Goku and Vegeta, not nerf them.

Which was done with Trunks and look at all the confusion there. There's also a lot who thought it was done with Piccolo which created the most confusion. If they start doing it with Buu and Gohan and Android 17 then it's gonna get ugly. That doesn't make much sense from a story point of view and belittles Super Saiyan God.

Gohan is on par with Goku and he definitely didn't get thousands of times stronger so Goku was nerfed whether just for that fight or from now we have to see.

Even Super Buu at his best didn't have that kind of raw power.

Then the God of Destruction wouldn't either. He could be weak for a God. They had a whole Universe 6 team and they differed massively in power. The Kai's differ hugely in power going by Zamasu. The Angels differ greatly if Whis can't even stand up to the Grand Priest so maybe the Gods do.

Or like I said Gowasu's comment didn't mean what you think it did.

Weird that you're saying I am overthinking

You're just overthinking the theory behind it. There might not have been any retcon whatsoever, this could just be some outlier in this one episode yet.

All it would be is that Toriyama retconned his power scale when he started working on Super. The manga followed this interpretation while the anime did not and now for whatever reason the anime would be trying to fix itself to match this retcon while hoping nobody notices.

Prove that Akita rectons the powerscale in super all you doing throwing theory without any support to it.
There no reason to assume base goku gotten weaker or nerfed in the show it.
He has punched out beerus energy ball.
Traded with base copy vegeta who stomped ssj3 gotenks it happened no point bitching about it.
Spared with beerus and took couple of blows while ssj3 bog goku got treated like fodder from beerus
Said fight had to be intervene by whis
Landed a blow on hit
As beerus said against goku in bog despite losing the form he still retain its power as a ssj meaning it didn't disappear.
While I agree the power scaling in this series is headache inducing and I blame the writers but at the same time people are just over complicating things here.

[TheMikado]

Prove that Akita rectons the powerscale in super all you doing throwing theory without any support to it.

^ So I'm guess 10% Rageta is still accurate. Making him at or stronger Goku's SSB level I guess since he would need to be to rectify the SSBxKKx10 to be less than Beerus, eventhough Goku is 10x stronger now than back then, and went KK so SSB would have to have been like 5% beerus if that's the case and Goku is still weaker than Beerus.

Or..... something was retconned.

[Bullza]

Prove that Akita rectons the powerscale in super all you doing throwing theory without any support to it.

A theory is all it is. It's mostly just backed up by the manga being widely different, some possible story issues and the recent Goku vs Gohan fight.

All those things you mentioned did prove that Goku was likely as strong as he was in the movies. The retcon if there was one would be that the anime has recently changed it so that he's now closer to how he is in the manga as opposed to the movies.

[HeroR]

Prove that Akita rectons the powerscale in super all you doing throwing theory without any support to it.

A theory is all it is. It's mostly just backed up by the manga being widely different, some possible story issues and the recent Goku vs Gohan fight.

All those things you mentioned did prove that Goku was likely as strong as he was in the movies. The retcon if there was one would be that the anime has recently changed it so that he's now closer to how he is in the manga as opposed to the movies.

And then I asked, why would the anime want to be like the manga when the author of the manga went on record and said he wanted to be different from the anime.

And that's still assuming that the manga had Goku not take in godhood and the manga is being like the movie where Goku gained Super Saiyan God in the end despite his massive power-up.

[Bullza]

I'm not involved with the production of the series so I wouldn't know. If Toriyama retconned his power scale and the manga more closely follows that interpretation then perhaps now the anime wants to be more accurate to Toriyama's power scale.

Just because Toyotaro wanted to do something different doesn't specifically mean it had to do with the power levels in the series. It could just be small things.

[Bullza]

The newest chapter of the manga was scanlated.

1. So yeah the reason Base Black was so much stronger than Goku and all the others is because of zenkai boosts afterall. All thanks to Trunks.

Some wondered if it was just because Zamasu's power was being stacked onto Goku's but I guess not. Actually Trunks did mention in the anime too that he kept powering up each time they fought.

2. Trunks mentions Goku and Vegeta not receiving zenkai boosts because they're at their limit but I suppose Trunks could have obtained zenkai battles too from fighting Black several times. That could explain why he was so strong because he probably wasn't at his limit.

3. The chapter does make it seem like Black jobbed on purpose which could mean SSJ2 Vegeta wasnt stronger than Black afterall or even that his SSJ2 form is necessarily special.

4. Black gets two zenkai boosts, the second makes him a Super Saiyan Rose.

5. Zamasu's comment on Super Saiyan Rose kinda makes it sound as though his Super Saiyan automatically turned Pink upon surpassing Super Saiyan God. SSGSS doesn't appear to be something that you learn? Nothing at all like that was said in the anime but maybe you could use that to say that all the regular forms don't surpass Super Saiyan God if you wanted to.

6. Zamasu was said to be nothing compared to Black which is it nothing new I suppose.

So the manga again does provide a few explanations to things that the anime didn't go into.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Prove that Akita rectons the powerscale in super all you doing throwing theory without any support to it.

A theory is all it is. It's mostly just backed up by the manga being widely different, some possible story issues and the recent Goku vs Gohan fight.

All those things you mentioned did prove that Goku was likely as strong as he was in the movies. The retcon if there was one would be that the anime has recently changed it so that he's now closer to how he is in the manga as opposed to the movies.

And then I asked, why would the anime want to be like the manga when the author of the manga went on record and said he wanted to be different from the anime.

And that's still assuming that the manga had Goku not take in godhood and the manga is being like the movie where Goku gained Super Saiyan God in the end despite his massive power-up.

I just don't understand how you can STILL not see ANY holes in the One-Base Theory?!

If SS3 Gotenks does nothing to Base Vegeta that means Frost is above SS3 Gotenks. Vegeta had to go SS to beat Frost in one punch. He couldn't do it in just Base form or he would have done so. Frost should be far above SS3 Gotenks then, but why would Frost have SO much trouble with Piccolo? Yeah, Frost is tired, but Piccolo is far below Base Gotenks. And, no, Piccolo training for three days before the U6 tournament did not get him far at all. The RoSaT training didn't even get him to SS2 level.

^ Do you NOT see the problem with the One-Base Theory?! There has to be another explanation.

[HeroR]

A theory is all it is. It's mostly just backed up by the manga being widely different, some possible story issues and the recent Goku vs Gohan fight.

All those things you mentioned did prove that Goku was likely as strong as he was in the movies. The retcon if there was one would be that the anime has recently changed it so that he's now closer to how he is in the manga as opposed to the movies.

And then I asked, why would the anime want to be like the manga when the author of the manga went on record and said he wanted to be different from the anime.

And that's still assuming that the manga had Goku not take in godhood and the manga is being like the movie where Goku gained Super Saiyan God in the end despite his massive power-up.

I just don't understand how you can STILL not see ANY holes in the One-Base Theory?!

If SS3 Gotenks does nothing to Base Vegeta that means Frost is above SS3 Gotenks. Vegeta had to go SS to beat Frost in one punch. He couldn't do it in just Base form or he would have done so. Frost should be far above SS3 Gotenks then, but why would Frost have SO much trouble with Piccolo? Yeah, Frost is tired, but Piccolo is far below Base Gotenks. And, no, Piccolo training for three days before the U6 tournament did not get him far at all. The RoSaT training didn't even get him to SS2 level.

^ Do you NOT see the problem with the One-Base Theory?! There has to be another explanation.

Vegeta didn't have to go Super Saiyan against Frost. He chose to go Super Saiyan and one-shotted him. It's Vegeta's standard overall approach.

Why do you Vegeta had to go Super Saiyan?

[Marlowe89]

Pretty relieved that the current chapter finally provides some written confirmation that Super Saiyan Rosé was indeed Black's equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue, as most of us suspected. I'm not really sure why some people questioned it to begin with to be honest.

[HeroR]

Pretty relieved that the current chapter finally provides some written confirmation that Super Saiyan Rosé was indeed Black's equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue, as most of us suspected. I'm not really sure why some people questioned it to begin with to be honest.

Because an anime guide called it his version of Super Saiyan, ignoring that all the Super Saiyan forms in Super are just called Super Saiyan half the time with Blu just being Super Saiyan with God ki.

[ChiefWamsutta]

And then I asked, why would the anime want to be like the manga when the author of the manga went on record and said he wanted to be different from the anime.

And that's still assuming that the manga had Goku not take in godhood and the manga is being like the movie where Goku gained Super Saiyan God in the end despite his massive power-up.

I just don't understand how you can STILL not see ANY holes in the One-Base Theory?!

If SS3 Gotenks does nothing to Base Vegeta that means Frost is above SS3 Gotenks. Vegeta had to go SS to beat Frost in one punch. He couldn't do it in just Base form or he would have done so. Frost should be far above SS3 Gotenks then, but why would Frost have SO much trouble with Piccolo? Yeah, Frost is tired, but Piccolo is far below Base Gotenks. And, no, Piccolo training for three days before the U6 tournament did not get him far at all. The RoSaT training didn't even get him to SS2 level.

^ Do you NOT see the problem with the One-Base Theory?! There has to be another explanation.

Vegeta didn't have to go Super Saiyan against Frost. He chose to go Super Saiyan and one-shotted him. It's Vegeta's standard overall approach.

Why do you Vegeta had to go Super Saiyan?

1) Vegeta would have beaten Frost in Base if he could. This is not Frieza, so there is no need to poetically show that he can go Super Saiyan -- Frost doesn't know Vegeta. In order to end the fight fast and put Frost in his place Vegeta used the quickest moveset he could. This constituted using Super Saiyan to have the hit be the most effective.

2) Give concrete counterarguments instead of abstract and vague word choice like "choosing to do something" versus "having to do something."

3) My point still stands that Frost would be much stronger than SS3 Gotenks and, therefore, Piccolo.

[HeroR]

1) Vegeta would have beaten Frost in Base if he could. This is not Frieza, so there is no need to poetically show that he can go Super Saiyan -- Frost doesn't know Vegeta. In order to end the fight fast and put Frost in his place Vegeta used the quickest moveset he could. This constituted using Super Saiyan to have the hit be the most effective.

2) Give concrete counterarguments instead of abstract and vague word choice like "choosing to do something" versus "having to do something."

3) My point still stands that Frost would be much stronger than SS3 Gotenks and, therefore, Piccolo.

This is a flawed assumption. Let's go back to Resurrection 'F'. A weakened and tired Golden Freeza tried to kill Goku with an energy blast after Krillin tries to give him a Senzu. Vegeta in his base form easily deflected the blast and got Sorbet killed. Vegeta then jumped all the way to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to plummet Freeza. Then Goku went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to kill a weakened, true form Freeza when we have his base form easily overpowered that same form. So did Vegeta and Goku need their god forms in these incidents?

Going into farther into the Buu Saga. Goku went Super Saiyan against Yakon, after he showed he could handle Yakon in his base form.

Everyone said that Frost was stronger than Piccolo even after Goku tenderized him. So I am not sure where you're going with that third point.

[Freeza9000]

why would Frost have SO much trouble with Piccolo? Yeah, Frost is tired, but Piccolo is far below Base Gotenks. And, no, Piccolo training for three days before the U6 tournament did not get him far at all. The RoSaT training didn't even get him to SS2 level..

Frost most likely wasn't even taking Piccolo as seriously and many underestimated Piccolo. Which is proven when Piccolo wraps Frost with his arm and when Frost thought that he won against Piccolo when he delivered that kick. Plus, Piccolo was using his strategy and lured Frost into his trap and then caught him off guard with his arm.

[HeroR]

why would Frost have SO much trouble with Piccolo? Yeah, Frost is tired, but Piccolo is far below Base Gotenks. And, no, Piccolo training for three days before the U6 tournament did not get him far at all. The RoSaT training didn't even get him to SS2 level..

Frost most likely wasn't even taking Piccolo as seriously and many underestimated Piccolo. Which is proven when Piccolo wraps Frost with his arm and when Frost thought that he won against Piccolo when he delivered that kick. Plus, Piccolo was using his strategy and lured Frost into his trap and then caught him off guard with his arm.

This was confirmed by Piccolo. While talking to Frost after he wrapped him in his arms, Piccolo got on Frost for underestimating and not understanding how he fought. Frost even speculated that Piccolo let him kicked him and seemingly canceled his Special Beam Cannon so he would think he won and lowered his guard.

[Beyond]

How strong is Frost anyway? Perfect cell level? Super perfect cell? Vegeta at the cell games level?