Dragonball franchise is getting too complicated for its own good

[ABED]

Not to mention that Super is an inbetequel. It takes place before the end of Z.

[Akira]

Hey everyone, I found this topic to be an interesting one, so I'm dipping my toes in here. Well, that's not true, given what I plan to say, I'm just jumping into the deep end right away. We'll see if I sink or swim..

Not that he needs any help from me, but I want to point out something to many of you about Kunzait_83, and that he is a valuable part of the community here. I believe many are jumping to conclusions here based on perceptions, when you really need to dig a little deeper. Sure, his posts are littered with dashes of coarse language, and he may appear, at first glance anyway, as some elitist prick that you think (on first impression) that you want nothing to do with. Yet, you need to look at his long and detailed posts, and realize the simple fact that he isn't picking on any of you directly (not until you start point-counter pointing things he says and calling him names and trying to place labels on him that you perceive from his statements). People often disagree with him, and that is fine, but when he makes general statements about a given era of the franchise, or a particular generation of fans, or a certain period in the fandom, he isn't attacking you directly/peronally if you happen to fall into one of those categories.

I look at him as a living historian of sorts, a guy who shares with us interesting tidbits about the past and where the fandom has been, and where it is going. He speaks in generalized statements, and is unapologetic for being accurate in his recounting of how things were. He surely doesn't gloss over details, or candy-coat anything, that is certain. It isn't him being elitist or arrogant, or anything of that sort. Most of his first posts in many topics are history lessons, "from a certain point of view" (to make a Star Wars reference, due to it being mentioned elsewhere in the topic). You may disagree or agree, but your point of view may be based on an entirely different set of circumstances or variants of the source material being discussed, and when you got into the franchise.

His knowledge of the early days even pre-dates me by a couple of years, and his contributions to the community (has anyone ever checked out his classic DB artwork preservation page? That is a labor of love if I've ever seen one) are positive and beneficial to DB fans everywhere. I possibly relate to him more than most, because I'm now one of the "grouchy old guys" that still hang around here. My viewpoints are definitely different than his at times, but I believe he has a lot of interesting information to share. You just have to realize he speaks in potentially charged statements, but doesn't intend it as an attack, and you don't have to take it personally.

I would dare say that -I- personally have come off as more condescending in the past than he ever has. That is something I have tried to dial back, and accept my place as merely an older fan with information to share, and not get involved with certain newer types of discussions where I could become frustrated or embroiled in sharp disagreements with others. There is some great discussion taking place in this thread about the franchise as a whole, and I hate to see it become a personalized slam-fest like so many others seem to degrade into.

I think everyone (myself included) can benefit from taking a step back at times, remove yourself from feeling personally attacked, and look at the larger context being presented in front of you. Doing this has made my time here more enjoyable, and less frustrating. Okay, I've said my piece, I'll return to my rocking chair and remain a silent spectator again for a bit.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

A newcomer should start with Dragon Ball, move to Z or Kai, then Super, then GT.

It's not exactly hard. Now with Star Wars, I have no idea where to start because each fan I meet gives me a different order to watch the series in.

You're literally saying the exact same thing for DB as Star Wars, though.

Z or Kai? In which language? Why? What are the differences? Why are the differences there? What are the pros and cons of each way?

That is complicated.

I don't think the language question is a valid one. You watch movies in what language? The original one, right? Most movies are English, so you'll be able to understand them, but what if said movie is in German or French? You don't watch Downfall with English voices, you watch the German version with subtitles so you can understand. It all comes down to common sense, really. Watch it in Japanese if you want to retain the original artistic integrity and meaning of the product, switch to the dub if it's not for you. Like with any medium, I think the original language, regardless of whether you understand it or not, should always be given a chance first. If it's not for you, then you have alternatives.

This is not a very good example at all. Live action dubbed products are completely different to animated dubbed products. You cannot suspend your disbelief when watching something dubbed in Live Action, because well it is super obvious to tell when something in live action is dubbed, but animation that is not the case. There is a reason that people thought DBZ was an american cartoon you could argue that oh they changed the music and this and that but at the end of the day if you did that to a live action Japanese show you would still be able to tell that it is Japanese unlike with animation. It is not "common sense" as you put it. If it was such common sense then dubs would have died out years ago but we recently had a show in Space Dandy that aired dubbed before it aired in Japanese! This isn't the old Z days where "retain the original artistic integrity" is important dubs nowadays are on par if not better then their original Japanese source when it comes to anime.

[Doctor.]

This is not a very good example at all. Live action dubbed products are completely different to animated dubbed products. You cannot suspend your disbelief when watching something dubbed in Live Action, because well it is super obvious to tell when something in live action is dubbed, but animation that is not the case. There is a reason that people thought DBZ was an american cartoon you could argue that oh they changed the music and this and that but at the end of the day if you did that to a live action Japanese show you would still be able to tell that it is Japanese unlike with animation. It is not "common sense" as you put it. If it was such common sense then dubs would have died out years ago but we recently had a show in Space Dandy that aired dubbed before it aired in Japanese!

I don't see how it's any different. You say it's "obvious" you can tell they were dubbed, but it's also "obvious" to distinguish between an american and japonese cartoon, tropes, style of animation and cultures are vastly different.

isn't the old Z days where "retain the original artistic integrity" is important dubs nowadays are on par if not better then their original Japanese source when it comes to anime.

Subjective. I think they're just as bad. Even if they were good, retaining the original intention in art should always be the priority.

[Bansho64]

I think they're just as bad.

What things do you think they should improve on? Or what things do you think haven't been improved upon?

[Doctor.]

I think they're just as bad.

What things do you think they should improve on? Or what things do you think haven't been improved upon?

I can only speak about the dubs I've watched, which, admiteddly, aren't much, but I think the main problem is that the voice actors don't get the characters they're vocing, most of them at least, or they're just straight-up miscast. Scripts are also a problem, as they aren't adjusted to the English language, so sometimes you end up with characters rushing to finish their lines just to keep it within the lip flaps ("IWILLNOTLETYOUDESTROYMYWORLD"), but I think a dub is inherently flawed because the script must be changed from the japonese, and different words can make the implications of a scene completely different.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

This is not a very good example at all. Live action dubbed products are completely different to animated dubbed products. You cannot suspend your disbelief when watching something dubbed in Live Action, because well it is super obvious to tell when something in live action is dubbed, but animation that is not the case. There is a reason that people thought DBZ was an american cartoon you could argue that oh they changed the music and this and that but at the end of the day if you did that to a live action Japanese show you would still be able to tell that it is Japanese unlike with animation. It is not "common sense" as you put it. If it was such common sense then dubs would have died out years ago but we recently had a show in Space Dandy that aired dubbed before it aired in Japanese!

I don't see how it's any different. You say it's "obvious" you can tell they were dubbed, but it's also "obvious" to distinguish between an american and japonese cartoon, tropes, style of animation and cultures are vastly different.

isn't the old Z days where "retain the original artistic integrity" is important dubs nowadays are on par if not better then their original Japanese source when it comes to anime.

Subjective. I think they're just as bad. Even if they were good, retaining the original intention in art should always be the priority.

It really isn't, if I see a Japanese man speaking English with not foreign accent you know it is dubbed, compare that with Goku talking English. You are right there are little clues here and there that tell you an animated product is from Japan but nothing is Super obvious. I have seen the first three episodes of Super dubbed nothing there has screamed to me this is 100% without doubt a Japanese made product, but compared to live action you can tell something is off instantly either by the fact like I said an Asian man is speaking perfect English or generally what the person is saying is not matching the expression of the actor etc, it is also why it is easy to spot in say an English movie when someone has been dubbed over even though it is in the same English.

"retaining the original intention in art should always be the priority." You lose that as soon as you put trust in subtitles anyway, the original intent was to show it to Japanese audiences people who know the language but you and me and most people on this forum don't know Japanese so we watch with subtitles in our own language but then that is a different experience to someone in Japan automatically, our enjoyment is then limited to the subtitle. It absolutely is no different to watching the show dubbed. Shitty speed subs were a big problem for Super why? Because it told people wrong things it limited them.
Now if your speaking about dubs retaining things like the original music then yes I agree and thankfully that practice seems long dead.

[Doctor.]

It really isn't, if I see a Japanese man speaking English with not foreign accent you know it is dubbed, compare that with Goku talking English. You are right there are little clues here and there that tell you an animated product is from Japan but nothing is Super obvious. I have seen the first three episodes of Super dubbed nothing there has screamed to me this is 100% without doubt a Japanese made product, but compared to live action you can tell something is off instantly either by the fact like I said an Asian man is speaking perfect English or generally what the person is saying is not matching the expression of the actor etc, it is also why it is easy to spot in say an English movie when someone has been dubbed over even though it is in the same English.

There's nothing in Super's first three episodes that is extremely Japanese, but later on in the series, you've got characters eating sushi, eating with chopsticks, very Japanese style homes and shops and, of course, most character names are Japanese.

The culture will always show in some way or another.

An asian man speaking perfect English isn't a problem, I don't see why you'd think so. The voice not matching the expression is a matter of acting. You can't generalize and say every movie dub suffers from this, because anime dubs can suffer from this issue too.

"retaining the original intention in art should always be the priority." You lose that as soon as you put trust in subtitles anyway, the original intent was to show it to Japanese audiences people who know the language but you and me and most people on this forum don't know Japanese so we watch with subtitles in our own language but then that is a different experience to someone in Japan automatically, our enjoyment is then limited to the subtitle. It absolutely is no different to watching the show dubbed. Shitty speed subs were a big problem for Super why? Because it told people wrong things it limited them.
Now if your speaking about dubs retaining things like the original music then yes I agree and thankfully that practice seems long dead.

It's entirely different. Dubs have to change the script in order to adapt the dialogue into English. And, like you said, a small change implies a whole different thing about the scene. With subtitles, provided the translators are trustworthy, you're getting an exact translation of what is being said. Using speed subs as an argument is the same as me using fandubs to prove dubs are bad.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

It's entirely different. Dubs have to change the script in order to adapt the dialogue into English. And, like you said, a small change implies a whole different thing about the scene. With subtitles, provided the translators are trustworthy, you're getting an exact translation of what is being said. Using speed subs as an argument is the same as me using fandubs to prove dubs are bad.

The point of me using using speed subs as an example wasn't meant to imply that but like with dubs, susb are limited too. Your're watching the show the subbed one line is off translated but how do you tell? You can't, the same in a dub if a line is off translated you can't tell. That is what I am trying to get at, A Japanese person or someone who understands Japanese has a different experience watching the show than someone who doesn't and has to rely on subtitles. In that sense is there really that much difference? I don't think so. Watching the show in Japanese with English subtitles is still closer than watching a dub sure in terms of getting" the originally intended experience" but I still don't think that sub watching is the exact same experience that someone in Japan gets, I remember a few years ago when Kei17 was still active and I was reading a conversation between him and few folks regarding something and he mentioned that people on here were listening to show in Japanese with English ears and not listening to it with Japanese ears or something to that effect. Bottom line of my point most of us don't understand Japanese, (we're not going to learn Japanese while watching maybe picking up a few phrases sure) so does it truly matter whether someone has to watch the show in "how it was intended" first? No like modern FUNi both the dub and sub are good and someone who chooses to watch the show in whatever language doesn't lose anything.

[Doctor.]

It's entirely different. Dubs have to change the script in order to adapt the dialogue into English. And, like you said, a small change implies a whole different thing about the scene. With subtitles, provided the translators are trustworthy, you're getting an exact translation of what is being said. Using speed subs as an argument is the same as me using fandubs to prove dubs are bad.

The point of me using using speed subs as an example wasn't meant to imply that but like with dubs, susb are limited too. Your're watching the show the subbed one line is off translated but how do you tell? You can't, the same in a dub if a line is off translated you can't tell. That is what I am trying to get at, A Japanese person or someone who understands Japanese has a different experience watching the show than someone who doesn't and has to rely on subtitles. In that sense is there really that much difference? I don't think so. Watching the show in Japanese with English subtitles is still closer than watching a dub sure in terms of getting" the originally intended experience" but I still don't think that sub watching is the exact same experience that someone in Japan gets, I remember a few years ago when Kei17 was still active and I was reading a conversation between him and few folks regarding something and he mentioned that people on here were listening to show in Japanese with English ears and not listening to it with Japanese ears or something to that effect. Bottom line of my point most of us don't understand Japanese, (we're not going to learn Japanese while watching maybe picking up a few phrases sure) so does it truly matter whether someone has to watch the show in "how it was intended" first? No like modern FUNi both the dub and sub are good and someone who chooses to watch the show in whatever language doesn't lose anything.

Of course there's a difference. If you watch the dub, the script isn't the only difference. You're missing on the performance of the Japanese voice actors, their tone can imply an entirely different emotion than the English actors. Of course the difference isn't big, but I never said you should disregard dubs. I said you should always, in any medium, give the original version a shot first, because, regardless of whether you understand the language or not, you're still getting the best experience possible in regards to understading the intent of the creators. If you don't like it, sure, switch to the alternatives. But I can't take someone seriously if they call themselves a fan but never bothered to check out the original and see if they like it or not.

[8000 Saiyan]

Complicated? I never saw this franchise as complicated. It's one of the easiest franchises to follow.

[precita]

It wasn't complicated originally because there were far less series back when most of us got into it, and we're well versed in the franchise. Also for most of us who got into the dub first, all of Dragonball was skipped and we started with DBZ.

Back then that was all people knew.