Are the Namekians stronger than the Saiya-jin?

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Wed May 12, 2004 4:11 pm

One last note, didn't the Saiyans gain most of their influence from merging with Freeza's group? The Namekians survived a deadly storm, have the ability to heal, make Dragonballs, regrow limbs, and this is all without outside influence, these are latent abilities. Saiyans are just brutes, no matter how strong they become.

My verdict: Namekians are inherently stronger. But, I could be wrong.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed May 12, 2004 4:27 pm

The Namekians survived a deadly storm, have the ability to heal, make Dragonballs, regrow limbs, and this is all without outside influence, these are latent abilities. Saiyans are just brutes, no matter how strong they become.

ONE Namek survived a deadly storm. Two if you count Kami/Piccolo pre-fusion, but he escaped it. And although they can regrow limbs, etc, these are all for their peaceful methods of living since they're a peaceful race. Saiyans, who are a warrior race, have special techniques that are great for warriors: Oozaru, healing factor SSJ to SSJ5 (

).

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed May 12, 2004 4:32 pm

Old Age Nameks (pre violent storm): superior to Old Age Saiya-jins (pre Vegetasei's destruction)
New Age Saiya-jins (Post Vegetasei's destruction): superior to New Age Nameks (post violent storm).

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Wed May 12, 2004 4:34 pm

I think Xyex just nailed it.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Wed May 12, 2004 4:39 pm

Dayspring wrote:And although they can regrow limbs, etc, these are all for their peaceful methods of living since they're a peaceful race.

Clearly this ability is used to regenerate limbs lost in farm equipment. Or does it have other civilian applications?

Dayspring wrote:Saiyans, who are a warrior race, have special techniques that are great for warriors: Oozaru, healing factor SSJ to SSJ5 ( ).

True. Although Oozaru only has a limited application if you don't know the "artificial moon" technique Vegeta demonstrated. The near-death power increase also doesn't appear to be that common; I figure most Saiya-jin either die fighting or aren't severely injured. It may be rare that a Saiya-jin is almost killed and receives medical attention in time to prevent death.

Xyex wrote:Old Age Nameks (pre violent storm): superior to Old Age Saiya-jins (pre Vegetasei's destruction)
New Age Saiya-jins (Post Vegetasei's destruction): superior to New Age Nameks (post violent storm).

Two "new age Saiya-jin" were significantly stronger than the Namekian farmers and Nail. Radditz was much weaker, and Nappa was only a little stronger than the three farmers who fought Dodoria.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed May 12, 2004 5:02 pm

No, no. Radtiz and Nappa don't count, they were born before Vegetasei's destruction. Goku and Vegeta are exceptionally powerful Old Age Saiya-jin's. The New Age Saiya-jins are Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Pan, Goku Jr., Vegeta Jr. Etc...

Just like Piccolo is an Old Age Namek since Daimou was born before the violent storm killed almost everyone. This means Guru was Old Age too. His death left Piccolo as the last Old Age Namek.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Wed May 12, 2004 5:12 pm

Xyex wrote:No, no. Radtiz and Nappa don't count, they were born before Vegetasei's destruction. Goku and Vegeta are exceptionally powerful Old Age Saiya-jin's. The New Age Saiya-jins are Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Pan, Goku Jr., Vegeta Jr. Etc...

But none of those people are full Saiya-jin. They're Saiya-jin/human hybrids which clearly tend to have more power than either species does independently.

Xyex wrote:Just like Piccolo is an Old Age Namek since Daimou was born before the violent storm killed almost everyone. This means Guru was Old Age too. His death left Piccolo as the last Old Age Namek.

Yes, but modern Namekians are still genetically Namekian. Gohan and Trunks are hybrids with different characteristics from ordinary Saiya-jin.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed May 12, 2004 5:26 pm

Yes, but their still called Saiya-jins by the others. Besides, it's kind of hard for Nameks to have half-breeds.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Wed May 12, 2004 6:05 pm

Remember how the great elder of Namek said that if Piccolo and Kami had not split up into 2 different beings, he would have easily taken both Vegeta and Nappa.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed May 12, 2004 7:34 pm

Xyex wrote:Yes, but their still called Saiya-jins by the others.

But that doesn't make them full Saiyans. Between the fact that they are half (or more) human, plus the fact that they've grown up in a completely different environment, you can't use them as an example of Saiyans in general.

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Wed May 12, 2004 9:30 pm

Vegeta: Kakarotto must have realized that it's best to keep that state all the time. If you're used to that state, even if the fighting force has increased, only a small burden will be added to the body.

{Trunks:} [thinking] I see. So just the transformation of the body is useless. That's why I couldn't beat Cell.

SO... it seems that if they stay as SSJs all the time, they can get the power of a Ultra Super Sayajin without getting slower(the burden added to the body that Vegeta mentions). Or so I think. What's your opnion about these quotes?

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed May 12, 2004 9:38 pm

If that's the case, then shouldn't Goku have been able to beat Cell? Didn't Cell say that Trunks was stronger than him, but that he'd lose because he wouldn't be able to land a punch?

I always thought too that Super Saiyan 2 was Ultra Super Saiyan but without the slowness. I can't recall where I first got that idea, though.

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Wed May 12, 2004 9:40 pm

If that's the case, then shouldn't Goku have been able to beat Cell? Didn't Cell say that Trunks was stronger than him, but that he'd lose because he wouldn't be able to land a punch?

If I recall correctly, that's a dub line.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed May 12, 2004 10:32 pm

PsyLiam wrote:
Xyex wrote:Yes, but their still called Saiya-jins by the others.
But that doesn't make them full Saiyans. Between the fact that they are half (or more) human, plus the fact that they've grown up in a completely different environment, you can't use them as an example of Saiyans in general.

In other words Gohan wasn't a Super Saiya-jin then? And I guess Goku and Vegeta Jr. were both Super Humans?

It dosen't matter that they aren't full blooded Saiya-jins, the Saiya-jin DNA is dominate, and they are the New Age Sai-jins. It's not the same, but a similar concept with the Nameks. None of the current Nameks, all of them being Guru's children, aren't the same as the Old Age nameks since there was a larger 'gene pool' of sorts for those Nameks to be born from.

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Wed May 12, 2004 10:36 pm

I had something to add, but my head just exploded trying to be coherent.

The problem with this discussion is that there's evidence on both sides to prove and disprove either argument, with no side really winning the argument.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed May 12, 2004 10:48 pm

That's the fun of debate!

Xyex wrote:In other words Gohan wasn't a Super Saiya-jin then? And I guess Goku and Vegeta Jr. were both Super Humans?

It dosen't matter that they aren't full blooded Saiya-jins, the Saiya-jin DNA is dominate, and they are the New Age Sai-jins. It's not the same, but a similar concept with the Nameks. None of the current Nameks, all of them being Guru's children, aren't the same as the Old Age nameks since there was a larger 'gene pool' of sorts for those Nameks to be born from.

The Saiyan DNA isn't always dominant. If it was, then Trunks would have black hair. The only trait that does seem to be dominant is that which allows the offspring to turn Super Saiyan (and even that isn't 100%. Look at Pan).

So, yes, Gohan is a Super Saiyan. However, that's just a name. It's an ability that derives from having Saiyan DNA, but it does not make the person Saiyan. A horse and donkey mate, and produce an ass. It has abilities of both it's parents, but it's not a donkey, and it's not a horse. It's something else.

And the situation with the Nameks is completely different, because all the Saiyans have to reproduce with is humans. The line will get weaker and weaker, and eventually the genes will vanish. Unless you want to assume that children 1/1000th Saiyan will still be able to make their hair turn blonde.

Nameks, on the other hand, reproduce with other Nameks, so they remain 100% Namek. Or rather, they don't, because Nameks reproduce in a completely different way, so again, it's not comparable.

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Wed May 12, 2004 10:53 pm

PsyLiam wrote: (and even that isn't 100%. Look at Pan).

Well, that in intself poses a problem. If the Saiya-jin (man, I'm fickle with this term..) gene in her was too weak, how come her grandson was able to turn SSJ?

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed May 12, 2004 10:56 pm

Inbreeding? Maybe she married Goten's son. Or Trunks. Or something else icky.

Or maybe there's a genetic reason why females can't turn Super Saiyan?

And as an extra point, Cell could (sort of) turn Super Saiyan. At the very least, he'd power up and get the SSJSFX. Are we going to claim that he's a Saiyan now?

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Wed May 12, 2004 10:58 pm

PsyLiam wrote:Are we going to claim that he's a Saiyan now?

He said the Saiyan (see? I'm fickle) genes in him allowed him to get a similiar recovery-from-near-death power-up.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed May 12, 2004 11:07 pm

That's my point. He had Saiyan DNA, but no-one's claiming that he's a Saiyan. Calling Gohan, Trunks etc "Saiyan" was simply more convenient that saying "Saiyan/human hybrid" everytime. Plus it seemed to be a point of pride - I think Goku is the only one who says "I'm human/and earthling" (on at least two occassions).

The problem here is in the original question...are Saiyans stronger than Nameks? If we're just talking about all the Saiyans who live on Earth, then yeah. They're also stronger than just about anyone else in the universe, including the gods.

If we're talking about original Saiyans vs current Nameks, then Nameks are stronger. If we're talking about original Saiyans vs pre-catastrophe Nameks, then who knows?