Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

How strong is Frost anyway? Perfect cell level? Super perfect cell? Vegeta at the cell games level?

Freeza in his first form was able to put holes through Super Saiyan Gohan without leaving his hover chair. Although Gohan is rusty, base form Gohan is still stronger than Piccolo since he was able to somewhat fight Tagoma in his base form, while Tagoma no sold Piccolo's attack and ripped his arm off, before Ginyu took his body and made Tagoma stronger. Piccolo is at least stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell at this point, although it's hard to say for sure since Piccolo hasn't had a clear power comparison since he fought Imperfect Cell. Super Saiyan Gohan took out Ginyu-Tagoma in two hits. Goku in his base form was stronger than final form Freeza to the point that Freeza could only hit Goku by attacking his friends and he did no damaged.

Forst in his Assault Form (third transformation) was able to keep up with base from Goku, swim through his Kamehameha, and get good hits in, although Goku wasn't really hurt. Goku was also stronger than he was in the Resurrection 'F' Saga since he trained with Whis for another eight months at least and did three years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

So overall, Frost is stronger than Freeza in everything except he lacks an ultimate form. So Golden Freeza stomps Frost, but outside of that, Frost would beat Freeza.

[Freeza9000]

How strong is Frost anyway? Perfect cell level? Super perfect cell? Vegeta at the cell games level?

Frost in his Assault form alone can go toe to toe with Base Goku, who is strong enough to one shot SSJ3 Gotenks (as proven when Copy Vegeta effortlessly pummeled Gotenks). What makes you think that Frost is as strong as Cell or Vegeta?

[Hugo Boss]

How strong is Frost anyway? Perfect cell level? Super perfect cell? Vegeta at the cell games level?

As strong as Freeza before he trains, I guess.

[apex_pretador]

How strong is Frost anyway? Perfect cell level? Super perfect cell? Vegeta at the cell games level?

Somewhere between buuhan and super vegetto.

[HeroR]

How strong is Frost anyway? Perfect cell level? Super perfect cell? Vegeta at the cell games level?

As strong as Freeza before he trains, I guess.

Why do you think Frost is that weak when he was able to go blows with base form Goku that overwhelmed final form Freeza after he trained? And if he was only as strong as Freeza before he trained, Piccolo would have stomped him.

[TheUltimateNinja]

How strong is Frost anyway? Perfect cell level? Super perfect cell? Vegeta at the cell games level?

Approximately Super Perfect Cell level. By my numbers Tournament Arc Goku should be ~2.5x Cell Arc Gohan, so his SSJ would be 1.25x SPC/Frost.

[HeroR]

How strong is Frost anyway? Perfect cell level? Super perfect cell? Vegeta at the cell games level?

Approximately Super Perfect Cell level. By my numbers Tournament Arc Goku should be ~2.5x Cell Arc Gohan, so his SSJ would be 1.25x SPC/Frost.

That is if you believed the two base theory, otherwise those numbers makes little sense.

[TheUltimateNinja]

How strong is Frost anyway? Perfect cell level? Super perfect cell? Vegeta at the cell games level?

Approximately Super Perfect Cell level. By my numbers Tournament Arc Goku should be ~2.5x Cell Arc Gohan, so his SSJ would be 1.25x SPC/Frost.

That is if you believed the two base theory, otherwise those numbers makes little sense.

Gohan was keeping up with Goku just now. Sure, Goku was probably holding back a little but still. Two base theory is the only way to explain it.

[HeroR]

[
Gohan was keeping up with Goku just now. Sure, Goku was probably holding back a little but still. Two base theory is the only way to explain it.

A superpower base form that no one in-universe ever said exists?

If we used this argument, the base form Goku used against Hit would be much stronger than the base form used against Botamo and Frost. Yet, Hit never said anything about Goku's power going up, greatly surpassing the golden Super Saiyan form. Goku didn't even have an aura. And why didn't Goku show this super powered base form to Trunks when he was showing off his Super Saiyan forms? And why would Gowasu compared Goku to a God of Destruction when he isn't even as strong as the strongest Supreme Kai in U7 in his Super Saiyan 2 form?

Most of all, how does this super-powered base form exists if it isn't powered by god ki?

[TheUltimateNinja]

[
Gohan was keeping up with Goku just now. Sure, Goku was probably holding back a little but still. Two base theory is the only way to explain it.

A superpower base form that no one in-universe ever said exists?

If we used this argument, the base form Goku used against Hit would be much stronger than the base form used against Botamo and Frost. Yet, Hit never said anything about Goku's power going up, greatly surpassing the golden Super Saiyan form. Goku didn't even have an aura. And why didn't Goku show this super powered base form to Trunks when he was showing off his Super Saiyan forms? And why would Gowasu compared Goku to a God of Destruction when he isn't even as strong as the strongest Supreme Kai in U7 in his Super Saiyan 2 form?

Most of all, how does this super-powered base form exists if it isn't powered by god ki?

It is powered by God ki. While training with Whis Goku and Vegeta manage to create God ki in base, it's basically like that. There's an inconsistency because mortals can sense it, but Super is already chock full of inconsistencies.

[HeroR]

It is powered by God ki. While training with Whis Goku and Vegeta manage to create God ki in base, it's basically like that. There's an inconsistency because mortals can sense it, but Super is already chock full of inconsistencies.

It has been stated several times that Goku and Vegeta's base forms do not have god ki and Super have been very consistence about what forms has god ki. Goku's power could be felt in his battle with true form Freeza. The moment he went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, everyone said they couldn't feel Goku anymore and he must be a Super Saiyan God. In BOG, when Goku lost his god form and was still able to battle Beerus in his Super Saiyan form and his base form, everyone felt his energy and Whis confirmed that Goku wasn't a god anymore. Goku. Gohan, Piccolo, and Goten in Episode 71 noted that they couldn't feel Goku anymore so he must have transformed. Nothing about a godly base.

There is nothing in Super where Goku or Vegeta's base forms have god ki, but the show have repeatedly said that Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan have god ki. In fact, if Goku had god ki when he fighting Hit at the tournament, why didn't Zamasu sense it when he was looking at Godtube? He didn't say Goku had god ki until he went Blue.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It is powered by God ki. While training with Whis Goku and Vegeta manage to create God ki in base, it's basically like that. There's an inconsistency because mortals can sense it, but Super is already chock full of inconsistencies.

It has been stated several times that Goku and Vegeta's base forms do not have god ki and Super have been very consistence about what forms has god ki. Goku's power could be felt in his battle with true form Freeza. The moment he went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, everyone said they couldn't feel Goku anymore and he must be a Super Saiyan God. In BOG, when Goku lost his god form and was still able to battle Beerus in his Super Saiyan form and his base form, everyone felt his energy and Whis confirmed that Goku wasn't a god anymore. Goku. Gohan, Piccolo, and Goten in Episode 71 noted that they couldn't feel Goku anymore so he must have transformed. Nothing about a godly base.

There is nothing in Super where Goku or Vegeta's base forms have god ki, but the show have repeatedly said that Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan have god ki. In fact, if Goku had god ki when he fighting Hit at the tournament, why didn't Zamasu sense it when he was looking at Godtube? He didn't say Goku had god ki until he went Blue.

But Goku was still as strong as a God, so if any mortal can just achieve that level of power with normal ki then there's nothing special about God ki.

[HeroR]

But Goku was still as strong as a God, so if any mortal can just achieve that level of power with normal ki then there's nothing special about God ki.

Golden Freeza was able to knock around Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and he specifically didn't have god ki. The same with Hit. No god ki and Vegeta couldn't even touch him in his god form.

You don't need god ki or to be a god to be extremely powerful. It helps, but it isn't needed. The Kais are supposedly gods and Goku surpassed the Supreme Kai over a decade ago. The same with King Kai who was weaker than Nappa.

[TheUltimateNinja]

But Goku was still as strong as a God, so if any mortal can just achieve that level of power with normal ki then there's nothing special about God ki.

Golden Freeza was able to knock around Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and he specifically didn't have god ki. The same with Hit. No god ki and Vegeta couldn't even touch him in his god form.

You don't need god ki or to be a god to be extremely powerful. It helps, but it isn't needed. The Kais are supposedly gods and Goku surpassed the Supreme Kai over a decade ago. The same with King Kai who was weaker than Nappa.

Fine then, not God ki but whatever that "Crimson radiance of God" is.

Also, what's going on with the power levels in this arc? With Zamasu being SSJ3 level it kind of made sense but now that he's weaker than SSJ Goku everything's ruined. This was my power scale before this happened:
(Black's power is Zamasu + Goku combined)
Goku: 1
SSJ Goku: 50
SSJ2 Goku: 100
SSJ3 Goku: 150
SSJ2 Trunks: 140
Present Zamasu: 150
Black: 150 + 3 = 153
SSJ2 Black: 450
SSJ2 Vegeta: 500
SSBlue Vegeta: 1,000
Black (Zenkai): 150 + 9 = 159
SSJ2 Black: 1,060
SSRose Black: 4,660

[HeroR]

Fine then, not God ki but whatever that "Crimson radiance of God" is.

Also, what's going on with the power levels in this arc? With Zamasu being SSJ3 level it kind of made sense but now that he's weaker than SSJ Goku everything's ruined. This was my power scale before this happened:
(Black's power is Zamasu + Goku combined)
Goku: 1
SSJ Goku: 50
SSJ2 Goku: 100
SSJ3 Goku: 150
SSJ2 Trunks: 140
Present Zamasu: 150
Black: 150 + 3 = 153
SSJ2 Black: 450
SSJ2 Vegeta: 500
SSBlue Vegeta: 1,000
Black (Zenkai): 150 + 9 = 159
SSJ2 Black: 1,060
SSRose Black: 4,660

Not sure what you're saying here. If you're talking about Super Saiyan God, it is a god form and have god ki since everyone noted that Goku's ki disappeared when he transformed. However, Goku lost the form, yet kept the power. Even as a golden haired Super Saiyan and no god ki since everyone could sense him, he was able to trade blows and in his base form, punched Beerus' final attack.

And why do you think Zamasu was as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku? (Super Saiyan isn't a level)

[TheUltimateNinja]

Not sure what you're saying here. If you're talking about Super Saiyan God, it is a god form and have god ki since everyone noted that Goku's ki disappeared when he transformed. However, Goku lost the form, yet kept the power. Even as a golden haired Super Saiyan and no god ki since everyone could sense him, he was able to trade blows and in his base form, punched Beerus' final attack.

And why do you think Zamasu was as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku? (Super Saiyan isn't a level)

Beerus says that even though he lost SSGod, he retained the crimson radiance of god which is why he didn't get any weaker.

SSJ is a level now, in the manga at least. After he finishes his training in the RoSAT with Gohan, Goku says they're close to their limits as SSJs. Then in the Buu Arc he's not that much stronger than Cell Arc Gohan and he hasn't notably improved since then. So current SSJ3 Goku is basically the same as Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku.

And it's simple, Zamasu should be at least close to Southern Kaioshin who fought Kid Buu to be considered such a prodigy. And Black is SSJ3 tier in base, and Goku certainly isn't that strong, so he must be drawing Zamasu's power as well, therefore Zamasu should be as strong as an SSJ3.

[HeroR]

Beerus says that even though he lost SSGod, he retained the crimson radiance of god which is why he didn't get any weaker.

SSJ is a level now, in the manga at least. After he finishes his training in the RoSAT with Gohan, Goku says they're close to their limits as SSJs. Then in the Buu Arc he's not that much stronger than Cell Arc Gohan and he hasn't notably improved since then. So current SSJ3 Goku is basically the same as Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku.

And it's simple, Zamasu should be at least close to Southern Kaioshin who fought Kid Buu to be considered such a prodigy. And Black is SSJ3 tier in base, and Goku certainly isn't that strong, so he must be drawing Zamasu's power as well, therefore Zamasu should be as strong as an SSJ3.

That isn't what Beerus said. He said nothing about a 'crimson radiance of god'.

Super Saiyan has and has never been a level. It is a multiplier of a Saiyans's base form with Super Saiyan being a 50x boost, Super Saiyan 2 being a 100x boost, and Super Saiyan 3 being a 400x boost from base form. The stronger the base, the stronger the form. Super Saiyan Gohan from Resurrection 'F' is not the same level of strength as Super Saiyan Gohan form the Cell Games since his base form is much higher. And that wasn't what Goku said. He just said they're closed to their limit, talking about their base forms. In the Buu Saga, Vegeta told Goku that he surpassed the level Gohan was during the Cell Games. How much stronger is vague, but he is still much stronger than Cell Games Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. So no, current Super Saiyan 3 would be far stronger than Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

.
Manga Zamasu almost as strong as anime Zamasu. He's a little weaker, but not the dramatic drop you're giving him.

[TheUltimateNinja]

That isn't what Beerus said. He said nothing about a 'crimson radiance of god'.

He did say that, the wording varies depending on the translation but he did say that. In the Crunchyroll version he says, "The red brilliance of God is still burning brightly within you like a flame."

Super Saiyan has and has never been a level. It is a multiplier of a Saiyans's base form with Super Saiyan being a 50x boost, Super Saiyan 2 being a 100x boost, and Super Saiyan 3 being a 400x boost from base form. The stronger the base, the stronger the form. Super Saiyan Gohan from Resurrection 'F' is not the same level of strength as Super Saiyan Gohan form the Cell Games since his base form is much higher. And that wasn't what Goku said. He just said they're closed to their limit, talking about their base forms. In the Buu Saga, Vegeta told Goku that he surpassed the level Gohan was during the Cell Games. How much stronger is vague, but he is still much stronger than Cell Games Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. So no, current Super Saiyan 3 would be far stronger than Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

He wasn't that much stronger than Kid Gohan, Majin Vegeta was his equal and Piccolo said Vegeta may have surpassed Kid Gohan. This suggests that the gap isn't that big.

And there's no indication that the characters have powered up dramatically in the entirety of the Super manga.

Manga Zamasu almost as strong as anime Zamasu. He's a little weaker, but not the dramatic drop you're giving him.

This chapter suggests the opposite.

[HeroR]

That isn't what Beerus said. He said nothing about a 'crimson radiance of god'.

He did say that, the wording varies depending on the translation but he did say that. In the Crunchyroll version he says, "The red brilliance of God is still burning brightly within you like a flame."

Super Saiyan has and has never been a level. It is a multiplier of a Saiyans's base form with Super Saiyan being a 50x boost, Super Saiyan 2 being a 100x boost, and Super Saiyan 3 being a 400x boost from base form. The stronger the base, the stronger the form. Super Saiyan Gohan from Resurrection 'F' is not the same level of strength as Super Saiyan Gohan form the Cell Games since his base form is much higher. And that wasn't what Goku said. He just said they're closed to their limit, talking about their base forms. In the Buu Saga, Vegeta told Goku that he surpassed the level Gohan was during the Cell Games. How much stronger is vague, but he is still much stronger than Cell Games Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. So no, current Super Saiyan 3 would be far stronger than Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

He wasn't that much stronger than Kid Gohan, Majin Vegeta was his equal and Piccolo said Vegeta may have surpassed Kid Gohan. This suggests that the gap isn't that big.

And there's no indication that the characters have powered up dramatically in the entirety of the Super manga.

Manga Zamasu almost as strong as anime Zamasu. He's a little weaker, but not the dramatic drop you're giving him.

This chapter suggests the opposite.

He was saying that Goku kept the power of godhood, despite not being a god anymore. Not that Goku literally had some red aura, hence the translation 'the red brilliance of God is still burning brightly within you like a flame'. He more or less said the same thing in the movie when he said that Goku 'absorbed that world' into his body. Goku got stronger, despite not having god ki anymore.

Vegeta outright said that Goku surpassed Gohan during the Cell Games. Meaning that Super Saiyan isn't a flat number, otherwise Goku's Super Saiyan 2 would be exactly the same as Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 in the Cell Games. It is a multiplier of a Saiyan's base form. It has always been.

That is because we have no scale to compare to other than the new characters in the Super manga, especially since the manga skipped Resurrection 'F'. Trunks can't really be compared since he has a mutated Super Saiyan form.

The manga showed that Zamasu can keep up somewhat with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. He's still inferior and didn't perform as well as anime Zamasu, but it isn't this giant power drop you're referring to.

[TheUltimateNinja]

He was saying that Goku kept the power of godhood, despite not being a god anymore. Not that Goku literally had some red aura, hence the translation 'the red brilliance of God is still burning brightly within you like a flame'. He more or less said the same thing in the movie when he said that Goku 'absorbed that world' into his body. Goku got stronger, despite not having god ki anymore.

Vegeta outright said that Goku surpassed Gohan during the Cell Games. Meaning that Super Saiyan isn't a flat number, otherwise Goku's Super Saiyan 2 would be exactly the same as Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 in the Cell Games. It is a multiplier of a Saiyan's base form. It has always been.

That is because we have no scale to compare to other than the new characters in the Super manga, especially since the manga skipped Resurrection 'F'. Trunks can't really be compared since he has a mutated Super Saiyan form.

The manga showed that Zamasu can keep up somewhat with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. He's still inferior and didn't perform as well as anime Zamasu, but it isn't this giant power drop you're referring to.

The point is that Goku has the power of SSGod now, and he can choose whether or not to use it. Otherwise every other character in the series is God tier.

My point is that their base forms haven't changed much ever since the Cell Arc, and barely changed at all since the Buu Arc. I know that they're multipliers, I'm saying the base itself is mostly unchanged.

Somewhat keep up with? He was getting completely steamrolled the entire time and Goku wasn't even trying.