The New Gods of the Universe Survival Arc Discussion Thread

[Rubens]

That fur ball GoD reminds of cousin Itt from family addams... dunno why. Does anyone think that universe 10 hakaishin, due to his absense during the whole "Zamasu incident", is literally the elephant in the room?

on the main page there are some HD pics of the new gods. There is one though that i still can't make out right, it looks like a tiny little rabbit or something. This tiny little thing is probably strong as f lol.

You're right, only now I saw the little guy! What the f*** is that...? Would be hilarious if it looked like Arale though (or Arale herself lol).

[Lujin_16]

At first glance I think only two or three of those gods look decent. The rest look absolutely horrible. I swear Toriyama is on drugs or something... all the villains from dbz including most of the non cannon stuff had some awesome looking characters. A clown, a fur ball, pink elephant a dwarf and a god damn robot. Those are the gods of destruction? Lol gotta be a bad joke.

I hope Beerus fights at some point and whoops the cdap out of at least one of those wack looking gods.

C-19,Babidi,Dodoria,Guldo,Mr Popo,Boo etc?? i hate when people compare the good Z designs with super's not so good designs i mean what is with Black Goku/Zamasu,Hit,Beerus,Whis etc?? much better designs than many from Z In my opinion

[alakazam^]

Is there any pattern in the Angels' clothing? Not just the symbols but the sashes, sleeves, etc?

[Darkprince410]

Listen man. Its not as farfetheched as you think. Do a little research and it's not impossible to see where they got their ideas. These are legit Dieties.


This isn't just some BS explanation that I came across. These people needed ideas for Dieties. WHY is it so hard for you to believe that they Modeled them from Dieties from other cultures? WHY?!

Please explain.

It's not that the notion of taking inspiration from other cultures mythology wise is what is far fetched, so much as your steadfast interpretation of what deities were used for inspiration. The clown Hakaishin, for example, could be based on the Heyoka, a figure that appears in folktales of the Lakota people, as it is more literally depicted as a clown or jester. It's less of a stretch there than to say he's based on Loki, given that, despite being the trickster god, has never been depicted as a clown before. Fenrir...unless you're seeing something I'm not, I never even saw a wolf Hakaishin during any of the preview. The closest I saw was the yellow/golden fox-like Hakaishin that appeared next to Universe 10 in the overall line-up, but no wolf. The only wolf I saw in the trailer was the one combatant that fought against Goku.

Is there any pattern in the Angels' clothing? Not just the symbols but the sashes, sleeves, etc?

Nothing I can determine. I think, outside of the symbol combination being a simple Universe designator, there's nothing we can necessarily glean from them (i.e. we can't use the symbol combination/universes we know to determine the other universes)

[Grimlock]

Is there any pattern in the Angels' clothing? Not just the symbols but the sashes, sleeves, etc?

As far as we know, no.

[Power Metal]

I know this has been mentioned ever since the U6/U7 tournament but seeing only one kai per universe pretty much confirms that Toryiama completely forgot about U7 having five supreme kais before Buu came along.

The only other possibility that I can think of is the kais present in the upcoming tournament are their universe's grand supreme kai and their supreme kais stayed at home. Pretty doubtful though

[Khin]

I think Toriyama simply retconned the whole 5 Kaiōshin stuff in the original manga. Gowasu seems to be the only sole Kaiōshin in Universe 10, as further shown when Whis was only worried about him when they learned about Zamasu's plan to steal the time-ring, and with the complete lack of mention of the other Kaiōshin in his universe.

Toriyama probably does not want to design too many Kaiōshin, so he changed the previously established 4 Kaiōshin and 1 Dai-Kaiōshin per universe to simply 1 Kaiōshin per universe.

There's also this whole thing In the Super Exciting Guide where he said that the Kaiōshin are only chosen from among the Shin-jin born from the rare special golden fruit, but now, we know even a Kaiō can become a Kaiōshin through promotion (as shown with Gowasu in the manga and Zamasu in both version).

[Grimlock]

I think Toriyama simply retconned the whole 5 Kaiōshin stuff in the original manga. Gowasu seems to be the only sole Kaiōshin in Universe 10, as further shown when Whis was only worried about him when they learned about Zamasu's plan to steal the time-ring, and with the complete lack of mention of the other Kaiōshin in his universe.

But Zamasu is the Kaio of North. The simply fact that he rules a section of the Universe makes me think that Universe 10 follows Universe 7's scheme. If Zamasu is Kaio of North, then obviously there is Kaio of West, Kaio of South, Kaio of East and Dai Kaio. By extension, there must be a Kaioshin for each quadrant too.

Toriyama probably does not want to design too many Kaiōshin.

Yeah, this is one of my few complainings about the whole god's conception nowadays.

so he changed the previously established 4 Kaiōshin and 1 Dai-Kaiōshin per universe to simply 1 Kaiōshin per universe.

And this I call utterly bullshit from Toriyama's part. There's no need to present every single Kaioshin from every single damn Universe, I agree, but at least show us Dai Kaioshin instead of a random Kaioshin.

[Nejishiki]

I know this has been mentioned ever since the U6/U7 tournament but seeing only one kai per universe pretty much confirms that Toryiama completely forgot about U7 having five supreme kais before Buu came along.

The only other possibility that I can think of is the kais present in the upcoming tournament are their universe's grand supreme kai and their supreme kais stayed at home. Pretty doubtful though

It doesn't particularly "confirm" anything. The 5 Kaioshin system was placed millions of years ago in Universe 7. Since the Boo rampage, it hasn't been corrected in-universe. It's evidence supporting that you don't need multiple Kaioshin more than it means anyone "forgot" anything, really. Concerning Zamasu, he's a special Kaio. I'm not too sure promotion is a common practice in any universe.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I'm not too sure promotion is a common practice in any universe.

In the manga, Beerus says something to the effect of "You'd better choose a better apprentice next time, or I'll destroy you." to Gowasu. At the very least, we can infer that it's common practice in the manga's continuity.

Of course, it's a semi-blatant retcon, but the 5 Kaioshin lore was maybe a panel or two of text in the manga, so it's understandable if Toriyama forgot.

[Grimlock]

In the manga, Beerus says something to the effect of "You'd better choose a better apprentice next time, or I'll destroy you." to Gowasu. At the very least, we can infer that it's common practice in the manga's continuity.

Beerus also says that in the anime.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Beerus also says that in the anime.

He has a similar line, but I don't think it's quite as indicative.

[Khin]

But Zamasu is the Kaio of North. The simply fact that he rules a section of the Universe makes me think that Universe 10 follows Universe 7's scheme. If Zamasu is Kaio of North, then obviously there is Kaio of West, Kaio of South, Kaio of East and Dai Kaio. By extension, there must be a Kaioshin for each quadrant too.

Not necessarily, they could still be 4 Kaio per universe, but just a single Kaioshin. Each Kaio overseeing the four quadrants, the Dai-Kaio overseeing the entire universe, and the Kaiōshin overseeing the universe and afterlife.

And this I call utterly bullshit from Toriyama's part. There's no need to present every single Kaioshin from every single damn Universe, I agree, but at least show us Dai Kaioshin instead of a random Kaioshin.

Well to be honest, I always find the idea of having 5 Kaioshin incredibly unnecessary. It could just simply be made into a single Kaioshin doing the whole job. This seems to be the path Toriyama is going through, so I'm glad with that.

If this indeed a retcon, a simple in-universe explanation would be Zen'ō changing the system a long time ago or something along those lines. The other Kaioshin of the universe were simply fired, while Universe 7 didn't need to, since coincidentally, the other Kaioshin were killed by Boo.

But of course, unless Toriyama himself will said something about this or this will be brought up in the show, we probably won't know the truth unless it will become very obvious.

[Grimlock]

Not necessarily, they could still be 4 Kaio per universe, but just a single Kaioshin. Each Kaio overseeing the four quadrants, the Dai-Kaio overseeing the entire universe, and the Kaiōshin overseeing the universe and afterlife.

There could be only one Kaioshin, but only if he were omnipresent. The Universe is vast, more than we can ever imagine, how a single being can create so many galaxies/planets and fill at least half of them with life? But Kaioshins didn't show any evidence of omnipresence. Jaco said Universe 7 has billion of galaxies... We can assume most of them contain life. For this single reason, there must be the other four Kaioshins, that is their major role and reason to exist.

[Khin]

There could be only one Kaioshin, but only if he were omnipresent. The Universe is vast, more than we can ever imagine, how a single being can create so many galaxies/planets and fill at least half of them with life? But Kaioshins didn't show any evidence of omnipresence. Jaco said Universe 7 has billion of galaxies... We can assume most of them contain life. For this single reason, there must be the other four Kaioshins, that is their major role and reason to exist.

If originally the Dai-Kaioshin is the one who oversees the afterlife and universe, then why can't be the same for the Kaioshin now? In addition, the Kaios also help the Kaioshin in creating life-forms, as said by Toriyama. The Universe 7 is ruled by only 1 Kaioshin for millions of years, so it's not impossible.

[Grimlock]

If originally the Dai-Kaioshin is the one who oversees the afterlife and universe, then why can't be the same for the Kaioshin now? In addition, the Kaios also help the Kaioshin in creating life-forms, as said by Toriyama. The Universe 7 is ruled by only 1 Kaioshin for millions of years, so it's not impossible.

Actually all Kaioshins oversees the afterlife, or am I missing something? Dai Kaioshin oversees the job of the four Kaioshins.

Not impossible, but since it is the case, it is also safe to assume that the increasing of planets became much smaller, not even comparable when there used to be five Kaioshins. One Kaioshin is not enough to maintain the balance so heavily said when Movie 14 was announced.

[Khin]

Actually all Kaioshins oversees the afterlife, or am I missing something? Dai Kaioshin oversees the job of the four Kaioshins.

Not impossible, but since it is the case, it is also safe to assume that the increasing of planets became much smaller, not even comparable when there used to be five Kaioshins.

What I meant is that the Dai-Kaioshin specifically oversees the afterlife and universe, but I get your point.

As far as I can remember, there is no mention of the number of planets decreasing in Universe 7. In fact, in Toriyama's interview in the Chōzenshū 1, he said something about the universe having a large number of planets and the universe' constantly increasing number of planets that would need destruction for balance.

In the film Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods, coming out in March 2013, a new god, the “God of Destruction”, appears. In this [book], Kaiō-sama and Kaiōshin-sama are described as “Gods of Creation”, but do they have the power to create things like planets?

Rather than Kaiōshin-sama making planets, he is able to provide the impetus for them to be born. Also, he will sometimes divide up one planet and increase the number of planets. He will even do things like create life-forms, or transplant them from another planet, but his basic job is to watch over the numerous planets. Because the number of planets is so very large, the four Kaiō-sama help him out as well. They intervene if it appears that the world’s balance will crumble, but normally, they merely act in an advisory role for new life-forms, and don’t get involved. In order to provide a balance to the constantly increasing number of planets, the God of Destruction destroys [them], but he does not act on Kaiōshin’s orders; he destroys according to his own individual judgment. Except, he is capricious, so he will destroy even an important world without a second thought, or when he finds it bothersome, let someone else act as an agent of destruction.

And like I said before, It just seems odd to me that there was not even a single mention of another Kaioshin existing in Universe 10 besides Gowasu. And this next arc will feature every God of Destruction and Kaioshin in every universe with an even shot of the them in the manga-based preview of the arc in last month's Jump festa preview -- and only 1 Kaioshin was shown in them.

And lastly, I forgot to mention this before, but the Kaioshin don't need omnipresence to be able to create a large number of life-forms and planets, as they have a technique (Kai-Kai) that can take them anywhere.

[Grimlock]

As far as I can remember, there is no mention of the number of planets decreasing in Universe 7. In fact, in Toriyama's interview in the Chōzenshū 1, he said something about the universe having a large number of planets and the universe' constantly increasing number of planets that would need destruction for balance.

[spoiler]

In the film Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods, coming out in March 2013, a new god, the “God of Destruction”, appears. In this [book], Kaiō-sama and Kaiōshin-sama are described as “Gods of Creation”, but do they have the power to create things like planets?

Rather than Kaiōshin-sama making planets, he is able to provide the impetus for them to be born. Also, he will sometimes divide up one planet and increase the number of planets. He will even do things like create life-forms, or transplant them from another planet, but his basic job is to watch over the numerous planets. Because the number of planets is so very large, the four Kaiō-sama help him out as well. They intervene if it appears that the world’s balance will crumble, but normally, they merely act in an advisory role for new life-forms, and don’t get involved. In order to provide a balance to the constantly increasing number of planets, the God of Destruction destroys [them], but he does not act on Kaiōshin’s orders; he destroys according to his own individual judgment. Except, he is capricious, so he will destroy even an important world without a second thought, or when he finds it bothersome, let someone else act as an agent of destruction.

[/spoiler]

Totally forgot about that bit. Still, it's hard for me to see a single Kaioshin creating so many planets filling them with life in the vast Universe. It's better to keep a group of five people for that.

I forgot to mention this before, but the Kaioshin don't need omnipresence to be able to create a large number of life-forms and planets, as they have a technique (Kai-Kai) that can take them anywhere.

Indeed, but that wasn't the way I was visualizing. I visualize Kaioshins creating planets and life in a HQs'-manner of doing stuff. You know, planets appearing out of sudden/nowhere, without the need for Kaioshins to be there and creating literally with their hands. But yeah, you might be right about this aspect.

[alakazam^]

Only having one Kaioushin per Universe seems neatier, I think. Having five always felt a bit unnecessary since we already had the Kaious and Dai Kaiou.

[MagmonKai]

It's quite obvious that Toriyama didn't intend for there to be multiple universes when he created the original dragonball story. So at the time, 5 supreme Kais was ok. I doubt beerus even existed. All this stuff has been one giant expansion of the original lore, the daiksioshin and other Kais were retconned out of the future. That's my take on it.