Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Dai-Saiyajin]

I made a power level list since the beginning of DBS. Two things that I raise is that the Saiyan beyond god is kind of a fake super saiyan god, and in the RoF both Goku and Vegeta didn't have unlocked this form yet, and after that only Goku unlocked SSG. Other thing is the transformations are more like a increase instead of a multiplier, and that is the reason I gave them additions instead of multipliers, except for the Godly transformations (SSG,SSB and Rosé). Also, I put SSG (without ritual) as 1/6 of the SSG (with ritual), since it's needed 6 saiyans to unlock, so, only 1 saiyan = 1/6


[spoiler]Transformations:

Super Saiyan (Not Mastered) : +2,5
Super Saiyan : +4
Super Saiyan 2 : +8
Super Saiyan 2 Full Power : +14
Super Saiyan 2 Mutated : +24
Super Saiyan 3 : +16
Super Saiyan Rage : +48
Super Saiyan God (Ritual) : 120x
Saiyan Beyond God (Fake SSG) : 10x
Super Saiyan God : 20x
Super Saiyan Blue : 25x (5x When Fused)
Super Saiyan Rosé : 2x
Kaioken : + 1/4 Each time when transformed

Fusions:

Between Humans - 10x
Between Gods - 2x


Battle of Gods:

Vegeta - 1,5
Vegeta SS2 - 9,5
Vegeta SS2 (Mutated) - 25,5
Goku - 1,5
Goku SS - 5,5
Goku SS2 - 9,5
Goku SS3 - 17,5
Goku SSG - 180
Goku (Godly Powers) - 150
Goku SS (Godly Powers) - 170
Beerus (10 %) - 30
Beerus (70 %) - 210
Beerus - 300
Whis - 450


Resurrection of Freeza:

Piccolo - 3,5
Gohan - 1
Gohan SS - 5
Tagoma - 4
Vegeta - 1,6
Vegeta SBG - 16
Vegeta SSB - 40
Goku - 1,6
Goku SBG - 16
Goku SSB - 40
Freeza (1st Form) - 7
Freeza (4th Form) - 14
Freeza (Golden Form) - 50

U6 vs U7:

Piccolo - 3,5
Vegeta - 1,7
Vegeta SS - 5,7
Vegeta SS2 - 9,7
Vegeta SSB - 42,5
Vegeta SSB (Tired) - 15
Goku - 1,8
Goku SS - 5,8
Goku SSG - 36
Goku SSB - 45
Goku SSB (Kaioken 2x) - 67,5
Goku SSB (Kaioken 10x) - 157,5
Botamo - 1,3
Frost (1st Form) - 1,5
Frost (3rd Form) - 2
Frost (4th Form) - 3,6
Magetta - 6
Kyabe - 1,5
Kyabe SS (NM) - 4
Hitto (Against Goku) - 2
Hitto (Against Vegeta) - 20
Hitto (Full Power) - 40
Hitto (0,2sec time-skip) - 42
Hitto (0,5sec time-skip) - 45
Hitto (1,0sec time-skip) - 50
Champa - 290
Beerus - 300
Whis - 450
Vados - 460

Future Trunks Arc:

Vegeta - 1,7
Vegeta SSB - 42,5
Vegeta (After HTC And Zenkai) - 2
Vegeta SSB - 50
Goku - 1,8
Goku SS2 - 9,8
Goku SS3 - 17,8
Goku SSB - 45
Goku (After Zenkai) - 2
Goku SSB - 50
Goku SSB (Kaioken 2x) - 75
Trunks - 1,5
Trunks SS2 - 9,5
Trunks SS2 FP - 15,5
Trunks SSR - 49,5
Trunks SSR (Spirit Sword) - 150
Zamasu - 9
Future Zamasu - 12
Goku Black - 21
Goku Black (1st Zenkai) - 23
Goku Black SS Rosé - 46
Goku Black (2nd Zenkai) - 24
Goku Black SS Rosé - 48
Goku Black (3rd Zenkai) - 25
Goku Black SS Rosé - 50
Merged Zamasu (Halo) - 120
Merged Zamasu (Weakened) - 60
Merged Zamasu (Mutated) - 150
Merged Zamasu (Bulky) - 180
Merged Zamasu (Bulky weakened) - 90
Vegetto - 40
Vegetto SSB - 200

Universal Survival Arc:

Master Roshi - 0,3
Kuririn - 0,5
Tenshinhan - 0,5
Android No.18 - 3
Android No.17 - 3
Piccolo - 3,5
Majin Buu - 12
Gohan - 1,5
Gohan SS - 5,5
Gohan SS2 - 9,5
Vegeta - 2
Vegeta SS - 6
Vegeta SS2 - 10
Vegeta SSB - 50
Goku - 2
Goku SS - 6
Goku SS2 - 10
Goku SS3 - 18
Goku SSG - 40
Goku SSB - 50[/spoiler]

[Bullza]

How strong is Frost anyway? Perfect cell level? Super perfect cell? Vegeta at the cell games level?

If there hasn't been a retcon then Frost would be stronger than Frieza in the Resurrection F saga in his true form. Frieza was below Base Goku whereas Frost was seemingly between Base and Super Saiyan.

If there has been a retcon or in the manga version. If Goku is on par with Gohan from the Resurrection F saga then he could be around SSJ3 Goku or Kid Buu or more.

[HeroR]

The point is that Goku has the power of SSGod now, and he can choose whether or not to use it. Otherwise every other character in the series is God tier.

My point is that their base forms haven't changed much ever since the Cell Arc, and barely changed at all since the Buu Arc. I know that they're multipliers, I'm saying the base itself is mostly unchanged.

Somewhat keep up with? He was getting completely steamrolled the entire time and Goku wasn't even trying.

No that isn't how it worked because everyone sensed Goku the moment he lost his God form and Whis confirmed that he wasn't a god anymore. Goku is as strong as a Super Saiyan God without God ki. That was confirmed again in Reserrection 'F' when he went Blue and everyone noted that Goku's ki disappeared. He had normal ki in his base form and was able to fight a stronger than every true form Freeza.

Goku's base form got stronger, the power just wasn't as dramatic. Even then, the power difference was still more than enough to be noticeable.

Anime Zamasu got overwhelmed at times, but was still able to hang in there. The same with Manga Zamasu.

[ssbgoku]

Ok, let's summarize all points for base sayians(goku/vegeta) being at least above ss3 gotenks level and for opposite.

For (ssg) strong base sayians:

- post ssg ss/base goku -> "crimson fire burning inside you still well"- Beerus explains this talking about fire's color being same as ssg as goku would absorb it's aura inside himself
- Against rof final form Frieeza, As far as I remember it was only added in rof arc of dbs, so this part was not in the movie. I mean both gohan and krilin talking how goku is ever more powerfull then against beerus(post ssg ss/base goku)
- Goku and Vegeta surviving unrestrained beerus's attack - gag scene
- Possibly Base goku against Hit, although it could be addresed as Hit holding back to have a fun beating goku and proving him wrong without tiring himself.
- Base copy Vegeta against ss3 gotenks -> not in Akira's draft, so padding arc between Akira's main series.
- Base goku vs Beerus in Monaca's suit

For (not ssg)strong base sayians:

- Base goku/Vegeta being scared of fighting against beerus, while ssg goku wasn't scared even although weaker
- Whis comparing Base goku/Vegeta to Beerus as tree to castle
- Krillin asking with hope for Majin buu's presence against incomming frieeza
- Master Roshi asking Gohan if he keep up with his training and having Krilling regaining hope for seconds
- Rof Frieeza being impressed about goku defeating majin buu and claiming to doing it himself(in final form)
- Sorbet's laser hurting Base goku(almost killing him)
- before u6 Base goku calling Majin buu crazy strong while enraged(reffering to buu vs beerus)
- Neither Beerus or Champa being impressed with combatants of u6 tournament
- Frost being compared to Frieeza, and goku being disappointed that buu can not take part in tournament(Majin buu > Frost First form at least).
- Noone mentioning anything about goku being so powerfull in base, Same with Vegeta
- Picoolo being able to keep up with very tired Frost
- In Future Trunks arc, Trunks being able to keep up with Goku
- Current ss gohan keeping up with ss goku(suprssed), so at least on par with base goku while gohan admited no training at all.

Also, if you don't want to believe in retcon, well one already happened as Beerus was made even stronger then ssb kkx10, although he overused 10% of his power against enraged ss2 vegeta...

To be honest if Current base goku being super buu level is shown in next episode, I will be happy with that. Also there is too much showing for Base goku not being close to divine level desructions's gods....

[pacz360]

Ok, let's summarize all points for base sayians(goku/vegeta) being at least above ss3 gotenks level and for opposite.

For (ssg) strong base sayians:

- post ssg ss/base goku -> "crimson fire burning inside you still well"- Beerus explains this talking about fire's color being same as ssg as goku would absorb it's aura inside himself
- Against rof final form Frieeza, As far as I remember it was only added in rof arc of dbs, so this part was not in the movie. I mean both gohan and krilin talking how goku is ever more powerfull then against beerus(post ssg ss/base goku)
- Goku and Vegeta surviving unrestrained beerus's attack - gag scene
- Possibly Base goku against Hit, although it could be addresed as Hit holding back to have a fun beating goku and proving him wrong without tiring himself.
- Base copy Vegeta against ss3 gotenks -> not in Akira's draft, so padding arc between Akira's main series.
- Base goku vs Beerus in Monaca's suit

For (not ssg)strong base sayians:

- Base goku/Vegeta being scared of fighting against beerus, while ssg goku wasn't scared even although weaker
Beerus is above them so of course they would be scared
- Whis comparing Base goku/Vegeta to Beerus as tree to castle
Beerus is much more powerful than either of them so don't see as a knock against them
- Krillin asking with hope for Majin buu's presence against incomming frieeza
Considering buu abilities why wouldn't he plus freeza was in his base form not final form
- Master Roshi asking Gohan if he keep up with his training and having Krilling regaining hope for seconds
Because gohan is the strongest one on besides goku and vegeta.
- Rof Frieeza being impressed about goku defeating majin buu and claiming to doing it himself(in final form)
Mainly because how strong goku compared when he last fought him
- Sorbet's laser hurting Base goku(almost killing him)
Base goku had his guard down when it happen you know this
- before u6 Base goku calling Majin buu crazy strong while enraged(reffering to buu vs beerus)

- Neither Beerus or Champa being impressed with combatants of u6 tournament
Champa literally had no knowledge about his team especially with hit.
- Frost being compared to Frieeza, and goku being disappointed that buu can not take part in tournament(Majin buu > Frost First form at least).
Said before due to buu's abiltity especially with his regeneration.
- Noone mentioning anything about goku being so powerfull in base, Same with Vegeta

- Picoolo being able to keep up with very tired Frost
Asspull powerups is not uncommon in dragon ball
- In Future Trunks arc, Trunks being able to keep up with Goku
Trunks spent most of the time get his ass kicked by black, and goku was playing around with trunks in his fight zenkai's was also a major factor in the arc.
- Current ss gohan keeping up with ss goku(suprssed), so at least on par with base goku while gohan admited no training at all.

[Hugo Boss]

How strong is Frost anyway? Perfect cell level? Super perfect cell? Vegeta at the cell games level?

As strong as Freeza before he trains, I guess.

Why do you think Frost is that weak when he was able to go blows with base form Goku that overwhelmed final form Freeza after he trained? And if he was only as strong as Freeza before he trained, Piccolo would have stomped him.

I'm not so adamant about this. It just occurred me that Frost is supposed to be Freeza's copy, but he didn't have the need to train. Also, I find the idea that he is likewise a nod weaker than Super Saiyans so convenient that I assume he is that strong.

[HeroR]

Ok, let's summarize all points for base sayians(goku/vegeta) being at least above ss3 gotenks level and for opposite.

For (ssg) strong base sayians:

- post ssg ss/base goku -> "crimson fire burning inside you still well"- Beerus explains this talking about fire's color being same as ssg as goku would absorb it's aura inside himself
- Against rof final form Frieeza, As far as I remember it was only added in rof arc of dbs, so this part was not in the movie. I mean both gohan and krilin talking how goku is ever more powerfull then against beerus(post ssg ss/base goku)
- Goku and Vegeta surviving unrestrained beerus's attack - gag scene
- Possibly Base goku against Hit, although it could be addresed as Hit holding back to have a fun beating goku and proving him wrong without tiring himself.
- Base copy Vegeta against ss3 gotenks -> not in Akira's draft, so padding arc between Akira's main series.
- Base goku vs Beerus in Monaca's suit

For (not ssg)strong base sayians:

- Base goku/Vegeta being scared of fighting against beerus, while ssg goku wasn't scared even although weaker
- Whis comparing Base goku/Vegeta to Beerus as tree to castle
- Krillin asking with hope for Majin buu's presence against incomming frieeza
- Master Roshi asking Gohan if he keep up with his training and having Krilling regaining hope for seconds
- Rof Frieeza being impressed about goku defeating majin buu and claiming to doing it himself(in final form)
- Sorbet's laser hurting Base goku(almost killing him)
- before u6 Base goku calling Majin buu crazy strong while enraged(reffering to buu vs beerus)
- Neither Beerus or Champa being impressed with combatants of u6 tournament
- Frost being compared to Frieeza, and goku being disappointed that buu can not take part in tournament(Majin buu > Frost First form at least).
- Noone mentioning anything about goku being so powerfull in base, Same with Vegeta
- Picoolo being able to keep up with very tired Frost
- In Future Trunks arc, Trunks being able to keep up with Goku
- Current ss gohan keeping up with ss goku(suprssed), so at least on par with base goku while gohan admited no training at all.

Also, if you don't want to believe in retcon, well one already happened as Beerus was made even stronger then ssb kkx10, although he overused 10% of his power against enraged ss2 vegeta...

To be honest if Current base goku being super buu level is shown in next episode, I will be happy with that. Also there is too much showing for Base goku not being close to divine level desructions's gods....

- Goku was nervous about fighting Beerus because he had a much better idea of how strong Beerus was. As a Super Saiyan God, he thought he had a chance before learning otherwise. Also, why would Beerus offer to fight Goku and Vegeta if they were weaker than Super Saiyan God Goku at the time and didn't even have their god forms?
- That just mean even as strong as Goku and Vegeta, there is still ants to Beerus. Even Beerus called Super Saiyan God Goku an unworthy opponent before Goku won him over.
- Krillin knew Goku and Vegeta weren't on the planet and Buu is the next strongest after Gohan. Of course he wants him.
- Gohan was the strongest there since Goku and Vegeta wasn't around to help them at the moment.
- That was to show that Freeza as he was stood absolutely no chance against Goku since he killed a being that his dad told him to never mess with.
- Goku dropped his guard. In the movie, the ring pierce Goku in his god form. Even if Goku's base was only Buu Saga level, that ring wouldn't pierce him if his guard was up
- Buu is strong and he is the next strongest person next to Gohan. Goku also call people like Krillin and Tien strong.
- Why would they be? They can smash all of them, including Hit with all his broken abilities. Even then, Beerus and Whis were impressed by Hit's Time-Skip, and Champa and Beerus were stunned by the Kaioken.
- Frost was compared to Freeza on appearances, voice, and being evil. No power comparisons was ever made between Frost and Freeze.
- They did in Resurrection 'F' when Goku in his base form fought a stronger than every final form Freeza.
- A Frost that everyone told Piccolo he had no chance against.
- Trunks didn't keep up with Goku. Goku blocked all of Trunks' attacks and didn't even move. He then easily caught Trunks' fists.
- This is a valid point.

Beerus' strength being retcon was readily apparent since they removed the 70% and Goku and Vegeta working together can beat Beerus. Also, it was never implied Beerus needed to used 10% of his power, just like Freeza didn't need 50% of his power to smash Goku on Namek. With Goku and Vegeta, they have reinforced that their base forms are powerful and there is the entire true form Freeza fight that is exactly like the movie except Freeza is stronger.

[Bullza]

The story just seems out of place with the power levels. I find it difficult to see the intent (at least from Toriyama) that Goku could be as strong as a Super Saiyan God in his Base form but then everyone else is stronger still. Especially with Cabba and Trunks.

I find it even more difficult to see how Goku could be that strong in Base and then still get hundreds of times more powerful as a SSJ3. More powerful still as a Super Saiyan Blue and then 10 times more powerful still with Kaioken and yet he's still weaker than Beerus.

Meaning that Beerus would be considerably over 4,000 times stronger than Super Saiyan God....yet he said that he briefly regretted seeking him out as it began to grow in power and he used 10% against Vegeta when he'd ideally not even need to use 0.1% of his power to stomp him.

If someone asked Toriyama if Frost, Cabba, Magetta, Trunks and Zamasu were stronger than Super Saiyan God I'd be more confident that he'd say no rather than yes.

[Ki Breaker]

The story just seems out of place with the power levels. I find it difficult to see the intent (at least from Toriyama) that Goku could be as strong as a Super Saiyan God in his Base form but then everyone else is stronger still. Especially with Cabba and Trunks.

I find it even more difficult to see how Goku could be that strong in Base and then still get hundreds of times more powerful as a SSJ3. More powerful still as a Super Saiyan Blue and then 10 times more powerful still with Kaioken and yet he's still weaker than Beerus.

Meaning that Beerus would be considerably over 4,000 times stronger than Super Saiyan God....yet he said that he briefly regretted seeking him out as it began to grow in power and he used 10% against Vegeta when he'd ideally not even need to use 0.1% of his power to stomp him.

If someone asked Toriyama if Frost, Cabba, Magetta, Trunks and Zamasu were stronger than Super Saiyan God I'd be more confident that he'd say no rather than yes.

Pretty much, the way toriyama is writing, it's clear Goku's base isn't so storng..
Nearly All of Universe 6 fighters as storng as SSG would be plain ridiculous..
There is some grave messup in the anime power scaling, happens when a single story is interpreted by various writers

[emperior]

To be honest the only battle which fucks up base Goku's power is his battle with final form Freezer (which was also in the movie)

If Goku just went SSJ in that battle there would be no "two bases theories"

[TheMikado]

To be honest the only battle which fucks up base Goku's power is his battle with final form Freezer (which was also in the movie)

If Goku just went SSJ in that battle there would be no "two bases theories"

We no, the filler arc with Copy Vegeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks also messed it up but that's anime only one again to go with the messed up power levels. As Bullza said just from watching the story I bet Toriyama would not put everyone above SSG levels. I've complained about this for a long time now but the writing in Super is attrocious due to the inconsistency of power levels. It's difficult to get a read on when characters are holding back or going all out which was a major point of emotional tension in the series. We already had power inflation which caused havoc in the Buu arc and while I like the BOG movie I knew as soon as they said Super was based on that and RoF that we were due for even worse shenanigans than the Buu, Gohan, Gotenks arguments.

You can't have universe destroying punches in your first introductory arc and then scale UP from there for a serialized story. It's difficult to do and often the writing won't work long term to make credible enemies that just randomly appear out of nowhere all of a sudden.

[emperior]

To be honest the only battle which fucks up base Goku's power is his battle with final form Freezer (which was also in the movie)

If Goku just went SSJ in that battle there would be no "two bases theories"

We no, the filler arc with Copy Vegeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks also messed it up but that's anime only one again to go with the messed up power levels. As Bullza said just from watching the story I bet Toriyama would not put everyone above SSG levels. I've complained about this for a long time now but the writing in Super is attrocious due to the inconsistency of power levels. It's difficult to get a read on when characters are holding back or going all out which was a major point of emotional tension in the series. We already had power inflation which caused havoc in the Buu arc and while I like the BOG movie I knew as soon as they said Super was based on that and RoF that we were due for even worse shenanigans than the Buu, Gohan, Gotenks arguments.

Again, it's Toriyama's mistake. He clearly lost his touch with power levels by Buu arc, Super is just the consequence of that. Even Cell Games retconned Cell's power, and before that Piccolo's power got retconned in the battle against Dr Gero. At least we know who's stronger than who most of the times, and Super can still redeem itself power levels wise, especially with the new arc.

[HeroR]

The story just seems out of place with the power levels. I find it difficult to see the intent (at least from Toriyama) that Goku could be as strong as a Super Saiyan God in his Base form but then everyone else is stronger still. Especially with Cabba and Trunks.

I find it even more difficult to see how Goku could be that strong in Base and then still get hundreds of times more powerful as a SSJ3. More powerful still as a Super Saiyan Blue and then 10 times more powerful still with Kaioken and yet he's still weaker than Beerus.

Meaning that Beerus would be considerably over 4,000 times stronger than Super Saiyan God....yet he said that he briefly regretted seeking him out as it began to grow in power and he used 10% against Vegeta when he'd ideally not even need to use 0.1% of his power to stomp him.

If someone asked Toriyama if Frost, Cabba, Magetta, Trunks and Zamasu were stronger than Super Saiyan God I'd be more confident that he'd say no rather than yes.

Pretty much, the way toriyama is writing, it's clear Goku's base isn't so storng..
Nearly All of Universe 6 fighters as storng as SSG would be plain ridiculous..
There is some grave messup in the anime power scaling, happens when a single story is interpreted by various writers

Toriyama wrote Resurrection 'F' and it was his script alone. And he wrote Goku easily beating true form Freeza in his base form despite Freeze being stronger than ever to the point that no other Z-Fighter could even remotely challenged. A major part of the marketing of the movie was how Goku grew so strong that he didn't need Super Saiyan. So, let's not pretend the anime made up the strong base form, especially since the same thing happened in BOG when base and Super Saiyan Goku was able to fight Beerus because he absorbed godhood, when Super Saiyan 3 Goku got two-shotted and couldn't even touch Beerus. So Copy-Vegeta messing up Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks in his base form is the logically conclusion unless you're just overselling Gotenks.

Again, it's Toriyama's mistake. He clearly lost his touch with power levels by Buu arc, Super is just the consequence of that. Even Cell Games retconned Cell's power, and before that Piccolo's power got retconned in the battle against Dr Gero. At least we know who's stronger than who most of the times, and Super can still redeem itself power levels wise, especially with the new arc.

Cell's power wasn't retcon. Korin said that Cell was hiding his full power. Piccolo's strength also wasn't retcon, he trained for three years and got as strong as a Super Saiyan. People getting stronger isn't a retcon.

[TheMikado]

Toriyama wrote Resurrection 'F' and it was his script alone. And he wrote Goku easily beating true form Freeza in his base form despite Freeze being stronger than ever to the point that no other Z-Fighter could even remotely challenged. So, let's not pretend the anime made up the strong base form, especially since the same thing happened in BOG when base and Super Saiyan Goku was able to fight Beerus because he absorbed godhood.

I'm not sure why this has to be explained over and over again. That's a movie. Period. It's. Not. Written. Or. Designed. For. A. Serialized. Format. Period.

When thinking about it if Toriyama decided that the current format wasn't going to work long term for the plot he could easily decide the movies don't apply to the Super anime. It's that simple. The problem is that this decision of his may have been made after these things were already produced in the anime. Who knows what happened in production.

[emperior]

Again, it's Toriyama's mistake. He clearly lost his touch with power levels by Buu arc, Super is just the consequence of that. Even Cell Games retconned Cell's power, and before that Piccolo's power got retconned in the battle against Dr Gero. At least we know who's stronger than who most of the times, and Super can still redeem itself power levels wise, especially with the new arc.

Cell's power wasn't retcon. Korin said that Cell was hiding his full power. Piccolo's strength also wasn't retcon, he trained for three years and got as strong as a Super Saiyan. People getting stronger isn't a retcon.[/quote]

Piccolo took a punch by Dr Gero, then the next chapter he fights Dr Gero and reveals he took the punch on purpose. That's when Toriyama decided that 19 and 20 wouldn't have been the main villains of the arc, so Dr Gero was nerfed.
Cell's power was a smart retcon, but still a retcon. If that whole scene with Korin never existed, no one would think Cell was lying to Trunks when he said his power in SSJ Grade 3 was above his'.

If Freezer commented after sparring with Goku in his final form that he wasn't even trying, that would retcon the battle and the power levels wouldn't be screwed up.

[HeroR]

Piccolo took a punch by Dr Gero, then the next chapter he fights Dr Gero and reveals he took the punch on purpose. That's when Toriyama decided that 19 and 20 wouldn't have been the main villains of the arc, so Dr Gero was nerfed.
Cell's power was a smart retcon, but still a retcon. If that whole scene with Korin never existed, no one would think Cell was lying to Trunks when he said his power in SSJ Grade 3 was above his'.

If Freezer commented after sparring with Goku in his final form that he wasn't even trying, that would retcon the battle and the power levels wouldn't be screwed up.

That's an assumption that Gero got nerf. As far as we know, Toriyama could have made the androids stronger over time by taking advantage of their ability to absorb energy, just like with Cell who stated out as fairly weak, but build his power over time. Even still, Androids 19 and 20 are much stronger than Freeze. Even more, we don't know when Toriyama decided to add new androids. As far as we knew, he got the call from his former editor the moment the first chapter with Androids 19 and 20 were released, so Toriyama was making plans to replace them even before Goku fought them as a Super Saiyan. So there would be no need to 'nerf' Androids 19 and 20.

Trunks' Ultra Super Saiyan form being stronger than Cell isn't retcon by Korin's statement. Ultra Super Saiyan is a powerful form which some say rivals Super Saiyan 2 that smashed Cell. However, the form is useless since it kills speed. Cell also wasn't trying. He recognized Trunks' power and spent the rest of the fight out-speeding him.

Freeze was clearly trying, especially when you look at the movie that Toriyama wrote. Freeze was trying to kill Goku and couldn't even touch him. Goku was the one still 'warming-up', so he was beating up Freeze without properly trying and even mock Freeze over it.

[Faisal Shourov]

My rating (current)

SSB Goku- 9
SSB Vegeta- 9
Hit- 9
Beerus- 10
Whis- 15
Future Trunks with spirit sword- 16
Merged Zamasu- 17
SSB Vegito- 18
Giygas Zamasu- 20
Omni King- 100

[MKJ]

To be honest the only battle which fucks up base Goku's power is his battle with final form Freezer (which was also in the movie)

If Goku just went SSJ in that battle there would be no "two bases theories"

I feel the same way. My take is that Goku maintained part of the SSG power(red flame) after he lost the form against Beerus, but the flame eventually went out leaving Goku normal again but open to new possibilities. It's a new power that must be gradually evolved and/or awakened through a calm mind and ki control(SSB). Again this is just my opinion and may be way off. The execution of power levels seems to be all over the place, but I'll give them time to clear it up as the series moves forward.

[ssbgoku]

To be honest the only battle which fucks up base Goku's power is his battle with final form Freezer (which was also in the movie)

If Goku just went SSJ in that battle there would be no "two bases theories"

I feel the same way. My take is that Goku maintained part of the SSG power(red flame) after he lost the form against Beerus, but the flame eventually went out leaving Goku normal again but open to new possibilities. It's a new power that must be gradually evolved and/or awakened through a calm mind and ki control(SSB). Again this is just my opinion and may be way off. The execution of power levels seems to be all over the place, but I'll give them time to clear it up as the series moves forward.

I believe exactly the same, how it could be interpreted. I mean basically if we want to find out what is core of dragon ball super(anime and manga) then they are few arcs which were made by both Manga and anime based on Toryiama's drafts, that mean: Bog, rof, u6, future trunks arc and incomming omniverse arc, which means all padding episodes between bog and rof and between rof and u6 also between u6 and FT arc could be counted as filler or not Akira's added stuff. So Neither scene is more important then another unless it was treated as gags by characters themeselves.

Anyway, another reason why current base goku can not be ssg level is 10% of line thrown out by beerus against enraged vegeta ss2. However being humble and trying to scale beerus upwards how much possible let's assume beerus used only 1% of his power. Also I will take minimal approach for enraged ss2 vegeta to be at 0.01%, which would make beerus's use of power overkill. Then I would set up ssg goku at 0.6% of beerus's power but it sounds ridiculous.

Now if rof Base goku was ssg's level due to gohan and Trunks comments about Goku being even more powerfull then against beerus, then

rof ss goku would be already 50 x 0.6%=3%, rof ss2 goku would be 6% and rof ss3 goku would be 24%. Now if we multiply it by 10(kaioken x10) we have already 240% of beerus, not even mentioning ssb's multiplier.

however if rof ss goku = bog ssg goku then rof ss2 goku = 0.6%*2=1.2% and ss3 goku being 0.6%*4=2.4%. Now kaioken x 10 would give us 24% x ssb's multiplier(at least 4 times), which would make him at least 96% beerus, and that only if comment was about 1% of beerus.

So how it would work and not be retconned even in rof ?

[Hugo Boss]

To be honest the only battle which fucks up base Goku's power is his battle with final form Freezer (which was also in the movie)

If Goku just went SSJ in that battle there would be no "two bases theories"

I feel the same way. My take is that Goku maintained part of the SSG power(red flame) after he lost the form against Beerus, but the flame eventually went out leaving Goku normal again but open to new possibilities. It's a new power that must be gradually evolved and/or awakened through a calm mind and ki control(SSB). Again this is just my opinion and may be way off. The execution of power levels seems to be all over the place, but I'll give them time to clear it up as the series moves forward.

Or they could make Goku a Super Saiyan God again in that battle, so that he could use Super Saiyan Blue as an upgrade.

Making him just a Super Saiyan would present some "problems", like Frost being more or less even with Final Form Freeza without facing any real challenge.