Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

If I'm not mistaken, Kuririn says stuff about Goku's base being "completely different" compared to when he fought Beerus and is "frighteningly strong".

We know that Goku didn't lose any noticeable power after reverting from God, so whatever Ki Kuririn and co. sensed from Goku then would essentially be SSG's power level.

Doesn't this imply Base Goku is stronger than SSG?
In fact a, lot stronger.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

How strong is Frost anyway? Perfect cell level? Super perfect cell? Vegeta at the cell games level?

I would guess 50% Perfect Cell or maybe 75%. Nowhere near SSJ2 teen Gohan or Super Perfect Cell. I can imagine Piccolo being low billions, maybe around where Ascended SSJ Trunks was at the Cell Games during Super. His largest power gain had to be during his RoSaT visit.

[MKJ]

If I'm not mistaken, Kuririn says stuff about Goku's base being "completely different" compared to when he fought Beerus and is "frighteningly strong".

We know that Goku didn't lose any noticeable power after reverting from God, so whatever Ki Kuririn and co. sensed from Goku then would essentially be SSG's power level.

Doesn't this imply Base Goku is stronger than SSG?
In fact a, lot stronger.

My view of DB is very abstract due to my esoteric studies. DB is full of universal truth from the esoteric point of view. The etheric golden body(highly evolved being), the seven dragonballs (seven chakras though which the kundalini/fiery serpent is awakened), hierarchy of higher beings, and Goku a simple man who has now established a connection with his Divine Flame(god ki) to name a few examples. Also the twelve god's of destruction represent certain Deities. l hope the sharing of my point of view does not offend anyone, but my point is that being overly analytical of the comparison of what is said in the anime vs the manga vs the movies will most likely leave us frustrated. Everyone has their own theory/point of view/opinion and that is how it should be. I know my interpretation is in the minority. I don't even recall Kuririn saying that which is my fault for not analyzing enough. lol Hopefully the new arc will shed more light on all of this as Goku's evolution continues.

[Bullza]

Doesn't this imply Base Goku is stronger than SSG?

There was also Beerus saying that Goku had become a lot stronger too. Plus he withstood attacks from that were supposed to be unrestrained.

I definitely think at the very least prior to the Future Trunks saga that in the anime he was stronger than Super Saiyan God in Base form because they were working with what was established in the recent movies.

But I wonder if perhaps after Toriyama wrote those movies he decided to make changes when working on Super and that's what the manga went with and now maybe the anime is trying to be closer to that instead.

[Marlowe89]

If I'm not mistaken, Kuririn says stuff about Goku's base being "completely different" compared to when he fought Beerus and is "frighteningly strong".

We know that Goku didn't lose any noticeable power after reverting from God, so whatever Ki Kuririn and co. sensed from Goku then would essentially be SSG's power level.

Doesn't this imply Base Goku is stronger than SSG?
In fact a, lot stronger.

Do you know which episode it was that Krillin said that? I recall characters in the RoF arc (including Frieza) stating that Goku had either "reached" or "surpassed" the level of a Super Saiyan God, but they were referring to Super Saiyan Blue in every one of those specific instances.

[Hugo Boss]

If I'm not mistaken, Kuririn says stuff about Goku's base being "completely different" compared to when he fought Beerus and is "frighteningly strong".

We know that Goku didn't lose any noticeable power after reverting from God, so whatever Ki Kuririn and co. sensed from Goku then would essentially be SSG's power level.

Doesn't this imply Base Goku is stronger than SSG?
In fact a, lot stronger.

Do you know which episode it was that Krillin said that? I recall characters in the RoF arc (including Frieza) stating that Goku had either "reached" or "surpassed" the level of a Super Saiyan God, but they were referring to Super Saiyan Blue in every one of those specific instances.

That was at the start of Episode #24. Krillin said Goku's ki is completely different from when he fought Beerus, which means he got much stronger since then.

[ChiefWamsutta]

If I'm not mistaken, Kuririn says stuff about Goku's base being "completely different" compared to when he fought Beerus and is "frighteningly strong".

We know that Goku didn't lose any noticeable power after reverting from God, so whatever Ki Kuririn and co. sensed from Goku then would essentially be SSG's power level.

Doesn't this imply Base Goku is stronger than SSG?
In fact a, lot stronger.

Do you know which episode it was that Krillin said that? I recall characters in the RoF arc (including Frieza) stating that Goku had either "reached" or "surpassed" the level of a Super Saiyan God, but they were referring to Super Saiyan Blue in every one of those specific instances.

Dragon Ball Super Episode 24 – Clash! Frieza Vs Son Goku This Is The Result of My Training!
Start at 4 minutes 40 seconds

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I don't recall Krillin ever stating that Base Goku was fighting at a level higher than when he fought Beerus. He just states that Goku was stronger than ever, which would just imply that current Goku>past Goku in general.

[Marlowe89]

Dragon Ball Super Episode 24 – Clash! Frieza Vs Son Goku This Is The Result of My Training!
Start at 4 minutes 40 seconds

Crunchyroll's subs just have Krillin saying he feels more fear than with Beerus, which isn't completely concrete to me, but I can see why people would interpret that as a viable implication. It also doesn't seem likely that Toei would insert the dialogue into the scene if they weren't trying to illustrate that, so I'll take it.

Not that it changes my own standpoint in any way -- I'm still split between retcon and two bases -- but I suppose it's always nice to have a point of reference like this whenever possible.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Dragon Ball Super Episode 24 – Clash! Frieza Vs Son Goku This Is The Result of My Training!
Start at 4 minutes 40 seconds

Crunchyroll's subs just have Krillin saying he feels more fear than with Beerus, which isn't completely concrete to me, but I can see why people would interpret that as a viable implication. It also doesn't seem likely that Toei would insert the dialogue into the scene if they weren't trying to illustrate that, so I'll take it.

Not that it changes my own standpoint in any way -- I'm still split between retcon and two bases -- but I suppose it's always nice to have a point of reference like this whenever possible.

I think we stop seeing the "Saiyan Beyond God" base (for lack of a better word) right before Future Trunks comes. I like to think that they fused into Goku and Vegeta's SSBlue forms.

[Ki Breaker]

Dragon Ball Super Episode 24 – Clash! Frieza Vs Son Goku This Is The Result of My Training!
Start at 4 minutes 40 seconds

Crunchyroll's subs just have Krillin saying he feels more fear than with Beerus, which isn't completely concrete to me, but I can see why people would interpret that as a viable implication. It also doesn't seem likely that Toei would insert the dialogue into the scene if they weren't trying to illustrate that, so I'll take it.

Not that it changes my own standpoint in any way -- I'm still split between retcon and two bases -- but I suppose it's always nice to have a point of reference like this whenever possible.

If the two base theory was valid, they wouldn't be transforming left and right as it takes stamina to do that..
They could just powerup in base and not waste stamina, unless they like being blond..
It definitely seems like a recton or an unexplained event is in play

[MKJ]

Dragon Ball Super Episode 24 – Clash! Frieza Vs Son Goku This Is The Result of My Training!
Start at 4 minutes 40 seconds

Crunchyroll's subs just have Krillin saying he feels more fear than with Beerus, which isn't completely concrete to me, but I can see why people would interpret that as a viable implication. It also doesn't seem likely that Toei would insert the dialogue into the scene if they weren't trying to illustrate that, so I'll take it.

Not that it changes my own standpoint in any way -- I'm still split between retcon and two bases -- but I suppose it's always nice to have a point of reference like this whenever possible.

I guess it's possible that they pulled a retcon in order to avoid two bases.

[DBZ Macky]

Also, even if we are apparently taking "filler" scenes as "canon", that doesn't mean that those scenes can't have mistakes.

The only reason why we disregarded stuff like Yamcha stomping Olibu was because it wasn't written by Toriyama himself. We don't trust Toei with this kind of stuff, so why would they change now?
Filler can be "canon" now, but should still be taken with a grain of salt.

It's okay to take the Anime's version of events as "canon".
But with the Potaufeu arc, I think it should be obvious that Toriyama had little involvement.

To me at least, it definitely seems like there is a set power scale (not given directly, but can be interpreted easily from the story) that the Anime staff has somewhat misunderstood.

The earlier production of Super was obviously rushed and so Goku absorbed God's power just like in the movies. It's reasonable to assume that no extra information had been given for the RoF stuff as well, so they just went with what was done in the Movies and just added their own twist into it.

As for whether the "retcon" has been noticed by the staff or not, I think it has. And I'll expect the future match-ups having current Goku and Vegeta significantly stronger than before, but not strong enough that they could defeat Vegetto in base.

With that said, the 2 base "theory" is excellent, because as Marlowe has said in his previous posts, Goku and Vegeta HAVE been shown to use God's power.
And the "Saiyan Beyond God" doesn't even have to have God Ki, just a battle power even higher than a SSG.

[Nejishiki]

It seems like (& I could be wrong) you're seeking out methods to disregard Dragon Ball Super's events. Concerning the extra material in the Dragon Ball Z adaption, it was commonly deemed contradictory because it conflicted it with the source material. With Dragon Ball Super, it is the source material (considering it's advertised as a continuation & whatnot, firmly attempting to be "its own thing"). That's not to say it will be free of its own continuity issues because nothing is perfect in this world. Rather, the foundation of your premise is incredibly lacking through my interpretation of your message. Shared context doesn't exist between the Dragon Ball Z adaption & Dragon Ball Super.

With that out of the way, the Copy Vegeta incident is established in Dragon Ball Super's continuity. It's incredibly likely that Toriyama didn't write the story arc but one shouldn't play the favorites game & neglect Toriyama's blessing towards the anime staff to do what they pleased with their continuity. It's a subtle difference but Goku did not absorb Super Saiyan God in Dragon Ball Super like he did in Battle of Gods. In the anime continuity, he merged with Super Saiyan God & that's one of the various elements that renders it incompatible with Toriyama's film "rules". It's not really "Boo is mightier in one source while clashing with itself in the same episode". It's "Beerus was deliberately written with separate quirks & no attempt was made to adhere with other interpretations since".

[HeroR]

Also, even if we are apparently taking "filler" scenes as "canon", that doesn't mean that those scenes can't have mistakes.

The only reason why we disregarded stuff like Yamcha stomping Olibu was because it wasn't written by Toriyama himself. We don't trust Toei with this kind of stuff, so why would they change now?
Filler can be "canon" now, but should still be taken with a grain of salt.

It's okay to take the Anime's version of events as "canon".
But with the Potaufeu arc, I think it should be obvious that Toriyama had little involvement.

To me at least, it definitely seems like there is a set power scale (not given directly, but can be interpreted easily from the story) that the Anime staff has somewhat misunderstood.

The earlier production of Super was obviously rushed and so Goku absorbed God's power just like in the movies. It's reasonable to assume that no extra information had been given for the RoF stuff as well, so they just went with what was done in the Movies and just added their own twist into it.

As for whether the "retcon" has been noticed by the staff or not, I think it has. And I'll expect the future match-ups having current Goku and Vegeta significantly stronger than before, but not strong enough that they could defeat Vegetto in base.

With that said, the 2 base "theory" is excellent, because as Marlowe has said in his previous posts, Goku and Vegeta HAVE been shown to use God's power.
And the "Saiyan Beyond God" doesn't even have to have God Ki, just a battle power even higher than a SSG.

If it doesn't have god ki, what exactly is powering up this super base form to make so much stronger than then golden Super Saiyan forms?

[Freezerbaby]

Dragon Ball Super Episode 24 – Clash! Frieza Vs Son Goku This Is The Result of My Training!
Start at 4 minutes 40 seconds

Crunchyroll's subs just have Krillin saying he feels more fear than with Beerus, which isn't completely concrete to me, but I can see why people would interpret that as a viable implication. It also doesn't seem likely that Toei would insert the dialogue into the scene if they weren't trying to illustrate that, so I'll take it.

Not that it changes my own standpoint in any way -- I'm still split between retcon and two bases -- but I suppose it's always nice to have a point of reference like this whenever possible.

If the two base theory was valid, they wouldn't be transforming left and right as it takes stamina to do that..
They could just powerup in base and not waste stamina, unless they like being blond..
It definitely seems like a recton or an unexplained event is in play

In Super, at least in the anime, when the fight gets really serious, they fight in their base forms then turn ssjblue, as if these were their only transformations, this can be seen during goku vs frieza, vegeta and goku vs hit, goku vs copy-vegeta, goku and vegeta vs ssjrose, goku vs hit filler.

I think the creators only use the ssj 1,2,3 transformations to add variety to the fights, Toriyama said back when rof was released, that goku would never have to use his ssj transformations again, and that´s the idea behind him fighting final form frieza(>ssj3) in base .

[HeroR]

In Super, at least in the anime, when the fight gets really serious, they fight in their base forms then turn ssjblue, as if these were their only transformations, this can be seen during goku vs frieza, vegeta and goku vs hit, goku vs copy-vegeta, goku and vegeta vs ssjrose, goku vs hit filler.

I think the creators only use the ssj 1,2,3 transformations to add variety to the fights, Toriyama said back when rof was released, that goku would never have to use his ssj transformations again, and that´s the idea behind him fighting final form frieza(>ssj3) in base .

We have seen Vegeta go from a regular Super Saiyan to Blue when he fought Cabba.

Also, what Toriyama said in that interview was that Goku absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God and realized that it would be better for Goku to train his base and Super Saiyans forms got become stronger instead of making more extensions of Super Saiyan, like Super Saiyan 2 and 3.

[ssbgoku]

Basically we just need to find out what is core of dragon ball super(anime and manga), which are manga anime's version of Toryiama's drafts, that mean: Bog, rof, u6, future trunks arc and incomming omniverse arc, which means: only beerus vs post ssg goku(ss then base goku), Base goku fighting final form frieeza, Vegeta and goku transforming in ssb, Whole u6 tournament(no preperation for it) and of course Alone FT arc are only scene which determine how strong base goku/vegeta is. All Beerus's fighting goku in monaca's costume, Them taking care of beerus while sleeping, and Beerus wanting to fight them also copy vegeta arc or this ss gohan vs ss goku are all Toei's imaginations and could be treated as gags or pure hype fights, nothing like feats.

The reason why neither base goku or ss goku can be as strong as bog ssg goku ?

10% line thrown out by beerus against enraged vegeta ss2.Even if it was 1%line and enraged ss2 vegeta being at 0.01% and ssg goku at 0.6% of beerus's power.

rof ss goku would be already 50 x 0.6%=3%, rof ss2 goku would be 6% and rof ss3 goku would be 24%. Now if we multiply it by 10(kaioken x10) we have already 240% of beerus, not even mentioning ssb's multiplier.

however if rof ss goku = bog ssg goku then rof ss2 goku = 0.6%*2=1.2% and ss3 goku being 0.6%*4=2.4%. Now kaioken x 10 would give us 24% x ssb's multiplier(at least 4 times), which would make him at least 96% beerus, and that only if comment was about 1% of beerus.

So how it would work and not be retconned even in rof ? Pleae prove me wrong anyone or admit it doesn't make sense.

[buutenks]

I dont get the arguing.

base Form>ssj3 Gotenks
ssj1-3>ssg
ssj blue>>>ssg.

Piccolo and base Gohan>ssj3 Gotenks and ssj Gohan is close to ssg or at that level.

I know some of you dont like that so many are ssg level, but all u6 fighters(apart from botamo) are ssg level, Zamasu is ssg level, since he is close to ssj 2 Goku.

You cant ignore everything that is shown and just go, no it cant be like that cos i dont like it. SSG is fodder now, that is the truth.

Basically we just need to find out what is core of dragon ball super(anime and manga), which are manga anime's version of Toryiama's drafts, that mean: Bog, rof, u6, future trunks arc and incomming omniverse arc, which means: only beerus vs post ssg goku(ss then base goku), Base goku fighting final form frieeza, Vegeta and goku transforming in ssb, Whole u6 tournament(no preperation for it) and of course Alone FT arc are only scene which determine how strong base goku/vegeta is. All Beerus's fighting goku in monaca's costume, Them taking care of beerus while sleeping, and Beerus wanting to fight them also copy vegeta arc or this ss gohan vs ss goku are all Toei's imaginations and could be treated as gags or pure hype fights, nothing like feats.

The reason why neither base goku or ss goku can be as strong as bog ssg goku ?

10% line thrown out by beerus against enraged vegeta ss2.Even if it was 1%line and enraged ss2 vegeta being at 0.01% and ssg goku at 0.6% of beerus's power.

rof ss goku would be already 50 x 0.6%=3%, rof ss2 goku would be 6% and rof ss3 goku would be 24%. Now if we multiply it by 10(kaioken x10) we have already 240% of beerus, not even mentioning ssb's multiplier.

however if rof ss goku = bog ssg goku then rof ss2 goku = 0.6%*2=1.2% and ss3 goku being 0.6%*4=2.4%. Now kaioken x 10 would give us 24% x ssb's multiplier(at least 4 times), which would make him at least 96% beerus, and that only if comment was about 1% of beerus.

So how it would work and not be retconned even in rof ? Pleae prove me wrong anyone or admit it doesn't make sense.

Or Beerus was lying just like with the 100% thing. Beerus lies allot you know.

[HeroR]

Basically we just need to find out what is core of dragon ball super(anime and manga), which are manga anime's version of Toryiama's drafts, that mean: Bog, rof, u6, future trunks arc and incomming omniverse arc, which means: only beerus vs post ssg goku(ss then base goku), Base goku fighting final form frieeza, Vegeta and goku transforming in ssb, Whole u6 tournament(no preperation for it) and of course Alone FT arc are only scene which determine how strong base goku/vegeta is. All Beerus's fighting goku in monaca's costume, Them taking care of beerus while sleeping, and Beerus wanting to fight them also copy vegeta arc or this ss gohan vs ss goku are all Toei's imaginations and could be treated as gags or pure hype fights, nothing like feats.

The reason why neither base goku or ss goku can be as strong as bog ssg goku ?

10% line thrown out by beerus against enraged vegeta ss2.Even if it was 1%line and enraged ss2 vegeta being at 0.01% and ssg goku at 0.6% of beerus's power.

rof ss goku would be already 50 x 0.6%=3%, rof ss2 goku would be 6% and rof ss3 goku would be 24%. Now if we multiply it by 10(kaioken x10) we have already 240% of beerus, not even mentioning ssb's multiplier.

however if rof ss goku = bog ssg goku then rof ss2 goku = 0.6%*2=1.2% and ss3 goku being 0.6%*4=2.4%. Now kaioken x 10 would give us 24% x ssb's multiplier(at least 4 times), which would make him at least 96% beerus, and that only if comment was about 1% of beerus.

So how it would work and not be retconned even in rof ? Pleae prove me wrong anyone or admit it doesn't make sense.

You really can't just throw out 'Toei's stuff' since the anime is Toei's story. It may follow the outline created by Toriyama, but at the end of the day, it's up to Toei and the manga to fill the holes since the outline is bareborn. If you just go by the outline, you're basically just get bullet points, not an actual story. That is no different than fans who tried to pretend the Kaioken didn't happened because Toei made it up and it would never show up again, only for Goku to used it against Merged Zamasu.

I dont get the arguing.

base Form>ssj3 Gotenks
ssj1-3>ssg
ssj blue>>>ssg.

Piccolo and base Gohan>ssj3 Gotenks and ssj Gohan is close to ssg or at that level.

I doubt Piccolo is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks since no characters said anything about Piccolo getting stronger. Him being that strong would also mean he's stronger than Fat Buu, who Goku chose for being powerful while Piccolo was literally his last choice.

But I agree with everything else stated.