Goku always wants to fight strong opponents...how true is that?

[Juub]

I remember reading somewhere Toriyama was dissatisfied with the way the anime/films portrayed Goku as some kind of righteous hero. He said Goku wasn't really concerned with good and evil and was much more into fighting strong guys no matter their morality or alignment.

How true is that though? Isn't Goku even in the source material a righteous kind of hero?

1. He was willing to let Raditz walk away after subduing him and wasn't looking for a fight.
2. After easily beating up Nappa he told the Saiyans to leave the planet immediately and not come back.
3. He offered the members of the Ginyu Force to simply walk away after easily knocking out Recoome
4. He told Frieza he would beat him down for the Saiyans and Nameks he killed.
5. Angrily told Frieza he had killed too many innocents shortly after turning Super Saiyan
6. Unwilling to fight Super Buu unfused. Since when does Goku back away from a fight?

Throughout the entire Z manga Goku didn't strike me as someone who cared very much about fighting strong opponents. He cared about getting stronger and loved a good scrap but it seems a peaceful solution was always the first thing in his mind. He also cared a lot about the safety of others, more so than fighting.

It seems they attempted to rectify that in Super but it only made Goku look out of character. The way he was pestering Zamasu for a fight just isn't Goku. He'll certainly have a brawl if it comes to it and enjoy every moment of it but he's never been the type to run after people just to get a fight. Same way he went after Beerus and wanted to fight him. I understand that these guys weren't villain and the angle was different but this whole Goku prioritizes fighting strong opponents doesn't seem true to me. Maybe Toriyama wanted to make him like that but his editors saw differently. Super seems much more in line with the way Akira Toriyama said he thinks Goku is.

Thoughts?

[nickzambuto]

Those are good points, honestly.

[ekrolo2]

He's not above some noble acts like Raditz but the others you can very easily work around. For Nappa & Vegeta, the former is a worthless scrub and up until he fights Vegeta, the narration states he's never felt his primal, Saiyan urge for battle pump the way it has during that battle. This is greatly evident when Goku makes everyone's efforts against the Saiyan's (at the time) completely pointless by letting Vegeta go purely because he knows he'll come back so he can fight him again, that is a MASSIVE fuck you to everyone who's gotten hurt & died to secure the safety of the planet and he's pissed on it. Sure it works out in the long term but in the moment, its all done for pure selfish battle junkie reasons.

The Ginyu Force are worthless scrubs who pose no threat to him so Goku sees little point in not letting them go (the fact they're genocidal lunatics doesn't matter to him, I'll get to this more with Freeza) but make no mistake, if the Ginyu's gave Goku a good fight, his reasons for letting them go would've been so they can meet up and fight again later.

Goku forgets about the whole "vow to avenge all those you've wrong!" the second he starts dicking around with Freeza in their fight, you'd think he'd just use KK, shove his fist up Freeza's ass and end it like that, but he only really starts to take the situation seriously when he learns he's fucked without the Spirit Bomb. Then when he fights Freeza as a Super Saiyan, he purposefully lets him power up to his maximum just for the thrill of a good fight even if that means Freeza might kill him then go to Earth and kill everybody else as a consequence of this.

But here's the real kicker, after Freeza's bored him, he's fine with letting him go. Goku doesn't give a flying squirrels fuck nugget if Freeza takes his wounded pride out on the rest of the galaxy, murdering, even more, civilizations in blind fury due a Saiyan monkey overcoming him. He doesn't care if more friends die the way Krillin did for Goku, as long as Freeza leaves his backyard alone, Goku couldn't care less if Freeza destroyed the rest of the cosmos just to vent his own frustrations. Hardly the most noble thing I've ever heard from a protagonist.

What does Super Boo have to do with him being noble? That's him being pragmatic. See, Goku's fine with dicking around when he doesn't know he's completely outclassed, that's why he doesn't snap Freeza's neck with KKX10 the instant they start fighting one another. When Freeza reveals he's got more strength left in the tank, Goku's willing to do whatever he can to kill him. Super Boo is that situation: Goku knows he CAN'T beat him without fusion. But this isn't done for noble reasons, its just him being pragmatic.

A pragmatism that goes away the second Boo is weakened enough for a one on one which is how Goku's MO always is. When the situation is beyond fucked and there's literally no room left for stupid Saiyan fighting junkie dicking around, he's gonna take it seriously, but if there's even a little wiggle room left then by our powers combined he WILL put everything in needless risk just for his own selfish desires.

[TheZFighter]

Did he not essentially let Piccolo and Vegeta live so he had strong sparring partners for in the future though?

[DragonBallFoodie]

It is true. He wants to fight them, but not to kill them or their families/homes. And he doesn't care for domination either.

The English dub made him more noble, but like Superman who took a hit on the head and is married with kids.

[mabalia]

I remember reading somewhere Toriyama was dissatisfied with the way the anime/films portrayed Goku as some kind of righteous hero. He said Goku wasn't really concerned with good and evil and was much more into fighting strong guys no matter their morality or alignment.

How true is that though? Isn't Goku even in the source material a righteous kind of hero?

1. He was willing to let Raditz walk away after subduing him and wasn't looking for a fight.
2. After easily beating up Nappa he told the Saiyans to leave the planet immediately and not come back.
3. He offered the members of the Ginyu Force to simply walk away after easily knocking out Recoome
4. He told Frieza he would beat him down for the Saiyans and Nameks he killed.
5. Angrily told Frieza he had killed too many innocents shortly after turning Super Saiyan
6. Unwilling to fight Super Buu unfused. Since when does Goku back away from a fight?

Throughout the entire Z manga Goku didn't strike me as someone who cared very much about fighting strong opponents. He cared about getting stronger and loved a good scrap but it seems a peaceful solution was always the first thing in his mind. He also cared a lot about the safety of others, more so than fighting.

It seems they attempted to rectify that in Super but it only made Goku look out of character. The way he was pestering Zamasu for a fight just isn't Goku. He'll certainly have a brawl if it comes to it and enjoy every moment of it but he's never been the type to run after people just to get a fight. Same way he went after Beerus and wanted to fight him. I understand that these guys weren't villain and the angle was different but this whole Goku prioritizes fighting strong opponents doesn't seem true to me. Maybe Toriyama wanted to make him like that but his editors saw differently. Super seems much more in line with the way Akira Toriyama said he thinks Goku is.

Thoughts?

I agree with you. These points you present people usually ignore because they don't want them to contradict with their perception of who Goku is, that he's only a selfish fighter while he's much more than this. To me original dragon ball manga comes before Toriyama's interviews.

As you said the manga is a work of Toriyama and his editors. It's the balance they found in its production that made such a entertaining story, with Toriyama's ideas winning sometimes like the instance of making Goku an adult (thank you Toriyama for this!) or the editor's ideas that helped to make Goku more human instead of a literally monkey boy. And going by Toriyama's interviews in recent years, I'm gratefull for the work the editors had in his story, that presented to us a more likeble Goku than the one that exist to Toriyama.

[dragonball0900]

1. He was willing to let Raditz walk away after subduing him and wasn't looking for a fight.
2. After easily beating up Nappa he told the Saiyans to leave the planet immediately and not come back.
3. He offered the members of the Ginyu Force to simply walk away after easily knocking out Recoome
4. He told Frieza he would beat him down for the Saiyans and Nameks he killed.
5. Angrily told Frieza he had killed too many innocents shortly after turning Super Saiyan
6. Unwilling to fight Super Buu unfused. Since when does Goku back away from a fight?

Well in the cases of Raditz and Super Buu, the gap was just too big. Raditz was 3 times stronger than him, and we know that a x1.3 of difference is already a big one. The gap between Super Buu and SSJ3 Goku was also really big. Many people underrate Super Buu's power and put him too close to Goku, but I don't find that the case.

With the Ginyu's, they were just nothing to him, it wasn't even a fight. When the opponents were too weak in comparison to him, then Goku just let them go since they are not the right opponents for him.

With Frieza, you can see during the whole beggining of the fight that Goku was warming up, like Frieza. Goku was more concentrating on the battle. It wasn't until Frieza uses his 50% that Goku was nothing to him.

There's also the fact that when Goku told Frieza that he killed many innocents when he was SSJ, Frieza was only in his 70%, and was nothing to Goku. But once Frieza revealed it wasn't his full power, Goku wanted to fight him.

I really don't know in the case of Vegeta and Nappa. Maybe it was just a very serious time of the series, or maybe at the time his fighting personality didn't get to him until his fight with Vegeta.

[Cipher]

Throughout the entire Z manga Goku didn't strike me as someone who cared very much about fighting strong opponents. He cared about getting stronger and loved a good scrap but it seems a peaceful solution was always the first thing in his mind. He also cared a lot about the safety of others, more so than fighting.

This is all, of course, ignoring:

1) That he lets Piccolo, whom he just narrowly won against, get away from the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai so he can maintain their rivalry
2) That he lets Vegeta, who just narrowly beat him, get away from their battle so they can fight again
3) That he's willing to let Freeza power up to 100% in the face of Kaio's warnings and his own better judgment
4) That he condones not pre-empting Dr. Gero's plans on a really flimsy moral basis, but more so because he wants to fight the androids
5) That, provoked enough, he fights Vegeta knowing they'll resurrect Boo
6) That he elects not to immediately defeat Boo partially out of reckless interest in the younger generation

All of those could easily lead to himself or more innocents being killed, but those consequences seem to be only distantly on his mind.

I think ekrolo2 has a pretty spot-on breakdown above. When the situation is do-or-die and his friends and family are in immediate danger, Goku is willing to do anything to end the fight, including resorting to non-standard techniques or not provoking it in the first place. But if there's any wiggle room, or even when there isn't if his interest is piqued enough, he'll make dangerous decisions for the sake of a fight.

His general trajectory throughout the original run of the series is that this drive gets worse and worse, and its consequences grander and grander, the stronger he gets. It's one of the reasons I think the ending with Oob works so well, as he's finally found a healthy outlet for his boredom, and a way to truly step back.

Super has slightly exaggerated his desire for strong opponents on a script-level (the exact way he pesters Zamasu feels off, as does his being so cheery about fighting Black), but one of the things I think both it and GT get right in a general sense is that Goku at that point in his life is going to be hyper-bored, and starved for opponents who can give him even a somewhat decent challenge. He's willing to pull a second Vegeta with Freeza until it backfires (because Freeza doesn't think in terms of self-improvement and mutual respect). Add in Super's expansion of the universe with all these parallel universes containing their own strong fighters, and it also feels reasonable he'd be acting a bit like a kid in a candy shop as well.

[floofychan333]

I would actually say that wanting to fight strong opponents applies to Vegeta better. Vegeta doesn't care who he's endangering as long as he gets a good fight, as seen in his fight with Cell.

[Cipher]

I would actually say that wanting to fight strong opponents applies to Vegeta better. Vegeta doesn't care who he's endangering as long as he gets a good fight, as seen in his fight with Cell.

Vegeta's pathology, pre-Boo arc change, is a little different from Goku's. Goku wants good fights even if he winds up losing, so long as he isn't putting anyone in immediate danger (usually).

Vegeta wants opportunities to prove he's the best. He can't stand losing or being in second place. Cell goads him not just by promising the thrill of a better fight, but by wounding Vegeta's ego by implying he wouldn't be able to win if Cell could just absorb #18.

It's the same reason Vegeta is willing to throw everything away to force a confrontation with Goku in the Boo arc. If he can't prove he's better than Goku on the one day he has an opportunity to do so, the rest of his life is worthless.

[RandomGuy96]

I would actually say that wanting to fight strong opponents applies to Vegeta better. Vegeta doesn't care who he's endangering as long as he gets a good fight, as seen in his fight with Cell.

Vegeta's pathology, pre-Boo arc change, is a little different from Goku's. Goku wants good fights even if he winds up losing, so long as he isn't putting anyone in immediate danger (usually).

Vegeta wants opportunities to prove he's the best. He can't stand losing or being in second place. Cell goads him not just by promising the thrill of a better fight, but by wounding Vegeta's ego by implying he wouldn't be able to win if Cell could just absorb #18.

It's the same reason Vegeta is willing to throw everything away to force a confrontation with Goku in the Boo arc. If he can't prove he's better than Goku on the one day he has an opportunity to do so, the rest of his life is worthless.

Yep. Note that Vegeta also had tons of fun showing off his superiority to weaklings like Pui and Cui, and sadistically torturing his opponents, like when he squeezed Goku. Goku wouldn't do that. Not just because of any moral reasons, but because he'd simply find such a thing boring. Goku doesn't care about being the best, he's just in for the challenge and pushing himself as he far as he can go; Vegeta on the other hand would be content with being the by far strongest being in the universe with no rivals- which he was in his introductory arc.

[TheMathemagician]

I would actually say that wanting to fight strong opponents applies to Vegeta better. Vegeta doesn't care who he's endangering as long as he gets a good fight, as seen in his fight with Cell.

Vegeta's pathology, pre-Boo arc change, is a little different from Goku's. Goku wants good fights even if he winds up losing, so long as he isn't putting anyone in immediate danger (usually).

Vegeta wants opportunities to prove he's the best. He can't stand losing or being in second place. Cell goads him not just by promising the thrill of a better fight, but by wounding Vegeta's ego by implying he wouldn't be able to win if Cell could just absorb #18.

It's the same reason Vegeta is willing to throw everything away to force a confrontation with Goku in the Boo arc. If he can't prove he's better than Goku on the one day he has an opportunity to do so, the rest of his life is worthless.

Yep. Note that Vegeta also had tons of fun showing off his superiority to weaklings like Pui and Cui, and sadistically torturing his opponents, like when he squeezed Goku. Goku wouldn't do that. Not just because of any moral reasons, but because he'd simply find such a thing boring. Goku doesn't care about being the best, he's just in for the challenge and pushing himself as he far as he can go; Vegeta on the other hand would be content with being the by far strongest being in the universe with no rivals- which he was in his introductory arc.

This is a good way to sum it up. Though, we know how that turned out. Vegeta ended up making Goku his rival, even though Goku never really seemed to care about Vegeta all that much as a rival post-Namek.

[Saturnine]

Noble hero as in "kind and merciful", yeah.

Noble hero as in GT Goku, fuck no.

Toei took Goku in completely the opposite direction than Toriyama wanted, he did plenty of OOC things in GT just for the sake of badassery. For example finishing off Baby - canon Goku would definitely have let him escape. And don't even get me started on that cringeworthy speech to Omega Shenron.

But yeah, the points the OP gave are valid.