Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Freezerbaby]

In Super, at least in the anime, when the fight gets really serious, they fight in their base forms then turn ssjblue, as if these were their only transformations, this can be seen during goku vs frieza, vegeta and goku vs hit, goku vs copy-vegeta, goku and vegeta vs ssjrose, goku vs hit filler.

I think the creators only use the ssj 1,2,3 transformations to add variety to the fights, Toriyama said back when rof was released, that goku would never have to use his ssj transformations again, and that´s the idea behind him fighting final form frieza(>ssj3) in base .

We have seen Vegeta go from a regular Super Saiyan to Blue when he fought Cabba.

Also, what Toriyama said in that interview was that Goku absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God and realized that it would be better for Goku to train his base and Super Saiyans forms got become stronger instead of making more extensions of Super Saiyan, like Super Saiyan 2 and 3.

I think vegeta did that just to show off his power to Cabba encouraging him to train to surpass his limits.
The thing behind this two base theory, to me, is that even though we are shown base goku vs base gohan evenly matched, goku might be using only 1% of his power and by the time he is forced to use, for instance, 40% of his power, he can do so by turning ssj3 (vs ssj2 trunks friendly fight) or in base ( vs frieza or hit serious or to death fight).

[HeroR]

I think vegeta did that just to show off his power to Cabba encouraging him to train to surpass his limits.
The thing behind this two base theory, to me, is that even though we are shown base goku vs base gohan evenly matched, goku might be using only 1% of his power and by the time he is forced to use, for instance, 40% of his power, he can do so by turning ssj3 (vs ssj2 trunks friendly fight) or in base ( vs frieza or hit serious or to death fight).

Problem is, no one said there was a big jump in power when Goku fought Hit in his base form, compared to him fighting Botamo and Frost. Hit told him to transform.

[pacz360]

[quote="buutenks"]I dont get the arguing.

base Form>ssj3 Gotenks
ssj1-3>ssg
ssj blue>>>ssg.

Piccolo and base Gohan>ssj3 Gotenks and ssj Gohan is close to ssg or at that level.

I know some of you dont like that so many are ssg level, but all u6 fighters(apart from botamo) are ssg level, Zamasu is ssg level, since he is close to ssj 2 Goku.

You cant ignore everything that is shown and just go, no it cant be like that cos i dont like it. SSG is fodder now, that is the truth.
[Quote]
I agree people are just making things complicated for no reason.

[LowRyder2005]

I think it's worth mentioning that in the manga Zamasu said that "when a god surpasses a Super Saiyan God they become pink"; in short, it could reinforce the idea that our regular timeline's Zamasu was weaker than the Super Saiyan God - at the very least in the manga. Do those who agree with the "SS2/Zamasu/Gohan > SSG" theory think it to be another case of the manga and the anime vastly differing (or do you go with the "in the manga they're weaker" by default)?

[Hugo Boss]

I think it's worth mentioning that in the manga Zamasu said that "when a god surpasses a Super Saiyan God they become pink"; in short, our regular timeline's Zamasu was weaker than the Super Saiyan God - at the very least in the manga. Do those who agree with the "SS2/Zamasu/Gohan > SSG" theory think it to be another case of the manga and the anime vastly differing (or do you go with the "in the manga they're weaker" by default)?

I think Zamasu means Super Saiyan God as a transformation, which is between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue. Perhaps Black told him what he saw on godtube.

You could mention Zamasu showed respect towards gods who presumably defeated Majin Boo, so it was probably something he couldn't do himself.

[buutenks]

I think it's worth mentioning that in the manga Zamasu said that "when a god surpasses a Super Saiyan God they become pink"; in short, our regular timeline's Zamasu was weaker than the Super Saiyan God - at the very least in the manga. Do those who agree with the "SS2/Zamasu/Gohan > SSG" theory think it to be another case of the manga and the anime vastly differing (or do you go with the "in the manga they're weaker" by default)?

In the manga they are definitely weaker.

Manga: base Goku is around namek saga FF Freeza.

Anime: base Goku is much stronger than ssj3 gotenks.

[LowRyder2005]

I think it's worth mentioning that in the manga Zamasu said that "when a god surpasses a Super Saiyan God they become pink"; in short, our regular timeline's Zamasu was weaker than the Super Saiyan God - at the very least in the manga. Do those who agree with the "SS2/Zamasu/Gohan > SSG" theory think it to be another case of the manga and the anime vastly differing (or do you go with the "in the manga they're weaker" by default)?

I think Zamasu means Super Saiyan God as a transformation, which is between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue. Perhaps Black told him what he saw on godtube.

You could mention Zamasu showed respect towards gods who presumably defeated Majin Boo, so it was probably something he couldn't do himself.

Yes. I can see what you mean, it actually makes just as much sense if not more.

[Marlowe89]

SSG is fodder now, that is the truth.

It's not even remotely the truth, and in fact any reasonable reading of the series would have Super Saiyan God (as it was portrayed in Battle of Gods) at a relevant tier of strength. All of the available evidence presented in the series' dialogue - even as recently as the Future Trunks arc - indicates that Super Saiyan God was strong enough to be in another league compared to most of the characters on Earth, that Beerus did enjoy his fight against Goku and wasn't just restraining his power to a thousandth of what it could have been, and that the power the Earthlings witnessed Goku use against Beerus was itself only noted to be surpassed with the introduction of its counterpart form, Super Saiyan Blue.

On the other hand, this assumption that Goku left SSG's power completely in the dust requires far, far more leaps in logic and it's incomprehensible to me that certain posters keep pushing it. When Beerus occasionally lies or isn't entirely truthful, it's made absolutely clear to the viewer that he did, but it was never once suggested that he fabricated his remarks about him having to use 10% of his power against Vegeta or briefly fearing Goku's strength as a Super Saiyan God. It was never even hinted that characters like Gohan, Trunks, and possibly Piccolo have already caught up to the power used against Beerus wily-nily. None of this was ever conveyed by Toei in any capacity, and on the rare occasion Super Saiyan God actually was mentioned, it was just used as a benchmark for Super Saiyan Blue's strength.

[TheMikado]

^ Piccolo has been doing the same exact training for the past decade but it's only within the series of Super where he's managed to gain exponentially power through waterfall meditation silently without anyone acknowledging it. Anyway it will be nice to see roshi or Krillin spar with base Goku and everyone remarks how they are stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks lol

[TheUltimateNinja]

Is there any way to salvage the manga's power scale without retconning the whole 90% power loss thing back in the U6 arc?

[TheUltimateNinja]

^ Piccolo has been doing the same exact training for the past decade but it's only within the series of Super where he's managed to gain exponentially power through waterfall meditation silently without anyone acknowledging it. Anyway it will be nice to see roshi or Krillin spar with base Goku and everyone remarks how they are stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks lol

That's the problem. Sure, you could argue against two base theory by saying none of the characters mention it, but nobody mentions the other characters suddenly becoming hundreds, possibly thousands of times stronger out of nowhere either. And that's the bare minimum, considering that Goku is supposed to have the power of SSGod now the other characters must all be SSGod+ in power.

[buutenks]

SSG is fodder now, that is the truth.

It's not even remotely the truth, and in fact any reasonable reading of the series would have Super Saiyan God (as it was portrayed in Battle of Gods) at a relevant tier of strength. All of the available evidence presented in the series' dialogue - even as recently as the Future Trunks arc - indicates that Super Saiyan God was strong enough to be in another league compared to most of the characters on Earth, that Beerus did enjoy his fight against Goku and wasn't just restraining his power to a thousandth of what it could have been, and that the power the Earthlings witnessed Goku use against Beerus was itself only noted to be surpassed with the introduction of its counterpart form, Super Saiyan Blue.

On the other hand, this assumption that Goku left SSG's power completely in the dust requires far, far more leaps in logic and it's incomprehensible to me that certain posters keep pushing it. When Beerus occasionally lies or isn't entirely truthful, it's made absolutely clear to the viewer that he did, but it was never once suggested that he fabricated his remarks about him having to use 10% of his power against Vegeta or briefly fearing Goku's strength as a Super Saiyan God. It was never even hinted that characters like Gohan, Trunks, and possibly Piccolo have already caught up to the power used against Beerus wily-nily. None of this was ever conveyed by Toei in any capacity, and on the rare occasion Super Saiyan God actually was mentioned, it was just used as a benchmark for Super Saiyan Blue's strength.

OK, how is Trunks not above ssg?

[TheUltimateNinja]

SSG is fodder now, that is the truth.

It's not even remotely the truth, and in fact any reasonable reading of the series would have Super Saiyan God (as it was portrayed in Battle of Gods) at a relevant tier of strength. All of the available evidence presented in the series' dialogue - even as recently as the Future Trunks arc - indicates that Super Saiyan God was strong enough to be in another league compared to most of the characters on Earth, that Beerus did enjoy his fight against Goku and wasn't just restraining his power to a thousandth of what it could have been, and that the power the Earthlings witnessed Goku use against Beerus was itself only noted to be surpassed with the introduction of its counterpart form, Super Saiyan Blue.

On the other hand, this assumption that Goku left SSG's power completely in the dust requires far, far more leaps in logic and it's incomprehensible to me that certain posters keep pushing it. When Beerus occasionally lies or isn't entirely truthful, it's made absolutely clear to the viewer that he did, but it was never once suggested that he fabricated his remarks about him having to use 10% of his power against Vegeta or briefly fearing Goku's strength as a Super Saiyan God. It was never even hinted that characters like Gohan, Trunks, and possibly Piccolo have already caught up to the power used against Beerus wily-nily. None of this was ever conveyed by Toei in any capacity, and on the rare occasion Super Saiyan God actually was mentioned, it was just used as a benchmark for Super Saiyan Blue's strength.

OK, how is Trunks not above ssg?

He's talking about before Trunks powered up. He surpassed SSGod while they were fighting Black & Zamasu, but he was nowhere close when he first came to the past.

[Marlowe89]

He's talking about before Trunks powered up. He surpassed SSGod while they were fighting Black & Zamasu, but he was nowhere close when he first came to the past.

Bingo. As much as we've discussed Trunks in this thread I thought it was a given, but perhaps I should have clarified.

[TheUltimateNinja]

He's talking about before Trunks powered up. He surpassed SSGod while they were fighting Black & Zamasu, but he was nowhere close when he first came to the past.

Bingo. As much as we've discussed Trunks in this thread I thought it was a given, but perhaps I should have clarified.

At this point I don't see how it isn't universally accepted that there is at least some version of a powered up base state. Sure, no one's come out and directly confirmed that Goku and Vegeta are using this, but to me it's much more absurd to believe that characters like Piccolo who haven't had much significant improvement in several years can suddenly become hundreds or thousands of times more powerful in a much shorter amount of time.

[buutenks]

He's talking about before Trunks powered up. He surpassed SSGod while they were fighting Black & Zamasu, but he was nowhere close when he first came to the past.

Bingo. As much as we've discussed Trunks in this thread I thought it was a given, but perhaps I should have clarified.

Ok , so explain how base Goku did so well vs Beerus in ep 43 , when Beerus in ep 5 and ep 8 one shotted ssj3 Goku and mystic gohan? Or how Whis says to Vegeta that he will never reach Goku's level without Whis' help. And then Whis says that Goku and Vegeta are a tree, while Beerus is a castle, disproving the 10% line. Or Beerus saying Goku absorbed the god power. This all points at base or ssj Goku being ssg level.

What evidence u got that only ssj blue is above ssg?

[Marlowe89]

Ok , so explain how base Goku did so well vs Beerus in ep 43 , when Beerus in ep 5 and ep 8 one shotted ssj3 Goku and mystic gohan? Or how Whis says to Vegeta that he will never reach Goku's level without Whis' help. And then Whis says that Goku and Vegeta are a tree, while Beerus is a castle, disproving the 10% line. Or Beerus saying Goku absorbed the god power. This all points at base or ssj Goku being ssg level.

What evidence u got that only ssj blue is above ssg?

There's nothing in your post that I haven't responded to countless times in this thread and it isn't even relevant to my central point - that point being you haven't presented any evidence to suggest Beerus was merely lying about things he was never implied to lie about, that writers would deliberately mislead viewers with this and other pieces of dialogue, that the entire point of the BoG arc was rendered moot, and that some of the Earthlings are now miraculously God level despite nothing ever acknowledging it in the series proper.

You can throw around points like "Well Goku is at least stronger than he was after the Buu saga!" all you want but that doesn't have any correlation to the discussion at hand and isn't even denied by most of us. You made the rather strong claim that Super Saiyan God in BoG was fodder, therefore it's entirely on you to demonstrate why that claim is true. The problem is that it's not objectively true, it's just unproven speculation on your part that I honestly can't see you making a solid case for unless something comes up later on in the anime to validate it.

[TheMikado]

He's talking about before Trunks powered up. He surpassed SSGod while they were fighting Black & Zamasu, but he was nowhere close when he first came to the past.

Bingo. As much as we've discussed Trunks in this thread I thought it was a given, but perhaps I should have clarified.

At this point I don't see how it isn't universally accepted that there is at least some version of a powered up base state. Sure, no one's come out and directly confirmed that Goku and Vegeta are using this, but to me it's much more absurd to believe that characters like Piccolo who haven't had much significant improvement in several years can suddenly become hundreds or thousands of times more powerful in a much shorter amount of time.

Pretty much, my estimates for Piccolo to reach SSG level has me having him at needing to be at least 10x-20x stonger than he was just to get around SSJ3 Gotenks level who still was nothing close to base Vegeta/Goku. Further based on his showing with Frost who was stronger than base Goku but less than SSJ Goku ( keeping SSJ multiplers in tact as confirmed by Zamasu) then Frost could be x25 base Gokus powered up base form.

So we're talking likely a 25,000% increase in power all between his fight in RoF and Champa arc for Piccolo and apparently nobody noticed.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Bingo. As much as we've discussed Trunks in this thread I thought it was a given, but perhaps I should have clarified.

At this point I don't see how it isn't universally accepted that there is at least some version of a powered up base state. Sure, no one's come out and directly confirmed that Goku and Vegeta are using this, but to me it's much more absurd to believe that characters like Piccolo who haven't had much significant improvement in several years can suddenly become hundreds or thousands of times more powerful in a much shorter amount of time.

Pretty much, my estimates for Piccolo to reach SSG level has me having him at needing to be at least 10x-20x stonger than he was just to get around SSJ3 Gotenks level who still was nothing close to base Vegeta/Goku. Further based on his showing with Frost who was stronger than base Goku but less than SSJ Goku ( keeping SSJ multiplers in tact as confirmed by Zamasu) then Frost could be x25 base Gokus powered up base form.

So we're talking likely a 25,000% increase in power all between his fight in RoF and Champa arc for Piccolo and apparently nobody noticed.

Considering Piccolo was much weaker than even regular SSJs back in BoG, there's no way that less than 2 years later he's surpassed SSJ3 Gotenks since SSJ Gotenks is much stronger than SSJ2 Goku & Vegeta, so for him to surpass SSJ3 Gotenks he'd have to become ~100x stronger at least.

[buutenks]

Ok , so explain how base Goku did so well vs Beerus in ep 43 , when Beerus in ep 5 and ep 8 one shotted ssj3 Goku and mystic gohan? Or how Whis says to Vegeta that he will never reach Goku's level without Whis' help. And then Whis says that Goku and Vegeta are a tree, while Beerus is a castle, disproving the 10% line. Or Beerus saying Goku absorbed the god power. This all points at base or ssj Goku being ssg level.

What evidence u got that only ssj blue is above ssg?

There's nothing in your post that I haven't responded to countless times in this thread and it isn't even relevant to my central point - that point being you haven't presented any evidence to suggest Beerus was merely lying about things he was never implied to lie about, that writers would deliberately mislead viewers with this and other pieces of dialogue, that the entire point of the BoG arc was rendered moot, and that some of the Earthlings are now miraculously God level despite nothing ever acknowledging it in the series proper.

You can throw around points like "Well Goku is at least stronger than he was after the Buu saga!" all you want but that doesn't have any correlation to the discussion at hand and isn't even denied by most of us. You made the rather strong claim that Super Saiyan God in BoG was fodder, therefore it's entirely on you to demonstrate why that claim is true. The problem is that it's not objectively true, it's just unproven speculation on your part that I honestly can't see you making a solid case for unless something comes up later on in the anime to validate it.

What is your evidence that ssj1 Goku isnt ssg level?

Answer me that and ill tell you why ssg is fodder.