Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

I think it's worth mentioning that in the manga Zamasu said that "when a god surpasses a Super Saiyan God they become pink"

Which would likely mean that when a Saiyan surpasses Super Saiyan God they turn Blue.

Which would mean that anytime Goku or Vegeta or Trunks etc had Gold hair then they'd be weaker than Super Saiyan God.

Which is why I said if maybe that line of thinking could be applied to the anime to possibly disprove them all being dozens of times stronger than Super Saiyan God. Though of course this wasn't actually said in the anime but then no description was given on Rose at all.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I think it's worth mentioning that in the manga Zamasu said that "when a god surpasses a Super Saiyan God they become pink"

Which would likely mean that when a Saiyan surpasses Super Saiyan God they turn Blue.

Which would mean that anytime Goku or Vegeta or Trunks etc had Gold hair then they'd be weaker than Super Saiyan God.

Which is why I said if maybe that line of thinking could be applied to the anime to possibly disprove them all being dozens of times stronger than Super Saiyan God. Though of course this wasn't actually said in the anime but then no description was given on Rose at all.

Trunks had gold hair even when he was using SSRage, though.

[DBZ Macky]

Regarding the upcoming episode, eh, I have my fair share of doubts about that. It'd mean they'd need to animate something like Krillin or Goku blowing away Piccolo Daimao with a wave of their hand, then Goku focusing a little more to take on Buu - is it Super Buu or Kid Buu, by the way? Seemed too tall to be the pure form.

It's definitely Super Buu. I think all of these villains are responsible for either directly or indirectly killing Krillin. Or just scaring the shit outta him in general.
Krillin never met Kid Buu... except that one time when Yamcha beat the shit outta that guy who gave Paikuuhan a good fight.

Also, INB4, Episode 76 ain't gonna prove jack. The villains' powers may differ from their actual counterparts, as someone already said.

I think I'm starting to get the hang of this stuff.

[HeroR]

^ Piccolo has been doing the same exact training for the past decade but it's only within the series of Super where he's managed to gain exponentially power through waterfall meditation silently without anyone acknowledging it. Anyway it will be nice to see roshi or Krillin spar with base Goku and everyone remarks how they are stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks lol

That's the problem. Sure, you could argue against two base theory by saying none of the characters mention it, but nobody mentions the other characters suddenly becoming hundreds, possibly thousands of times stronger out of nowhere either. And that's the bare minimum, considering that Goku is supposed to have the power of SSGod now the other characters must all be SSGod+ in power.

That's only a problem if you believed that people would get that stronger and no one commented on it. Goku specifically noted that Hit has gotten much stronger in Episode 71, to the point of saying there is no comparison, and he said Vegeta got stronger in Episode 46 during the Copy-Vegeta fight. So why wouldn't there be a throw away line with, 'wow, Piccolo has gotten so much stronger!' or 'wow, Goku is even stronger than he was as Super Saiyan'. And why would Goku chose Fat Buu over Piccolo if he was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, unless you're telling me that Fat Buu got stronger despite him doing nothing but eating.

[Bullza]

Trunks had gold hair even when he was using SSRage, though.

Ugh yeah that's right. I guess it can't apply then. Could be something made contradictory by the anime then because form is likely a Toei thing.

In the manga he never went through any power up.

[DBZ Macky]

Bullza, if I remember correctly, you used to be one of the people who were against the theory, what caused you to change your point?

I remember you and some other saying stuff like "But characters always get huge boosts without explanation, it's not surprising that Piccolo was able to fight Frost".

Also, do we have any gauge on any of the characters' powers from Episode 76? Goku needed to go SS and SS3 to fight past enemies.

[LowRyder2005]

It's probably safe to say that the latest episode didn't prove much as per where the fake villains stood in power, like predicted. They more or less all had the same feats and it was - literally - smoke and mirrors stuff. Saiyan Saga Vegeta punched base Goku, base Goku then punched Dabra, Piccolo Daimao could then restrain Goku for a second, Krillin couldn't atomize Nappa, Super Saiyan Goku punched Super Buu away, and so on.

Although it's implied they could give Goku trouble and if that was the case it's again pretty... strange, to me, to think of them as more than x times stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku, even disregarding their immortality and limiting ourselves to physical strength and such. Maybe it could be argued that they channeled each person's strength, instead of simply adapting their strength to match Goku's growing power? Both seem valid interpretations, and others could be made.

But anyway, I'm very inclined to say it was an episode where power analysis mattered really little; the narrative itself dropped them almost from the start.

[TheMikado]

Swell the weird thing was Goku going SSJ3 and SSB if power wasn't a factor. Then SSB kamehama with krillin was weird and would have seemed pointless if he actually needed SSB power. Idk what all that's supposed to be.

[Nejishiki]

*shoon*

The anime continuity of Dragon Ball Super is the main presentation. The manga continuity of Dragon Ball Super has always been presented as promotional material. Toriyama's outline is not nor was it intended to be something read alone. It's designed to be expanded by the anime staff & Toyotaro. Goku & Vegeta's journeys in both interpretations are officially valid, including how much strength they wish to exert. For the most part, it's better to separate subjects rather than write scenarios off according to personal standards. Dragon Ball Super characters aren't expected to coexist with Battle of Gods & Resurrection F establishments. It's a Dragon Ball Super topic we're in, after all!

I think Zamasu means Super Saiyan God as a transformation, which is between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue. Perhaps Black told him what he saw on godtube.

Super Saiyan God isn't part of the "Super Saiyan family tree" so natural humans & gods wouldn't "flicker into it" through standard training. It's, for lack of a better term, a magical transformation. When Goku & Vegeta activate Super Saiyan Blue, they're using their normal Super Saiyan but with Super Saiyan God's power. Super Saiyan Rosé uses & surpasses the power of Super Saiyan God with normal Super Saiyan, too. While Goku Black viewed Goku's usage of Super Saiyan God on GodTube, his goal was to achieve "Super Saiyan Blue" for himself. His disappointment in being initially incapable of reaching a regular Super Saiyan state should support his stance (as with his other beliefs, he probably thought the power of Super Saiyan God would activate without issue once he secured Goku's body).

Idk what all that's supposed to be.

The purpose of Goku & Kuririn's training was to control their emotions. The meditation served to weaken the illusions because if they continuously attempted to overpower them, they would continue to fail their training (mental practice is just as vital as strength practice!).

[TheMikado]

^ specifically meant Goku going SSB and him and Krillin kamehama. I don't see how Krillins would even do anything if Goku needed to actually go SSB or even SSJ3. I don't understand the purpose of powering up.

Also Krillin agreeing to spar if Goku agrees to not go SSJ.
What would if matter if Goku is at God level now in base .

Unless Krillin is now God level too....
Unless neither base Goku nor Krillin are God level...

[pacz360]

Also the new episode preview has ssj goku deflect a ki blast from whis thus confirming goku ssj forms are in fact god tier thus making current gohan somewhat god tier

[Hugo Boss]

I think Zamasu means Super Saiyan God as a transformation, which is between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue. Perhaps Black told him what he saw on godtube.

Super Saiyan God isn't part of the "Super Saiyan family tree" so natural humans & gods wouldn't "flicker into it" through standard training. It's, for lack of a better term, a magical transformation. When Goku & Vegeta activate Super Saiyan Blue, they're using their normal Super Saiyan but with Super Saiyan God's power. Super Saiyan Rosé uses & surpasses the power of Super Saiyan God with normal Super Saiyan, too. While Goku Black viewed Goku's usage of Super Saiyan God on GodTube, his goal was to achieve "Super Saiyan Blue" for himself. His disappointment in being initially incapable of reaching a regular Super Saiyan state should support his stance (as with his other beliefs, he probably thought the power of Super Saiyan God would activate without issue once he secured Goku's body).

The point is that Super Saiyan Black already surpassed Super Saiyan God (the level Goku used against Beerus and Hit) in Chapter #20. If Zamasu says Black achieved a form which surpass Super Saiyan God, it means Black could have a Super Saiyan God form stronger than his own Super Saiyan form. The comment about the form being pink is to contrast with the Blue of Goku and Vegeta.

[Noah]

Also the new episode preview has ssj goku deflect a ki blast from whis thus confirming goku ssj forms are in fact god tier thus making current gohan somewhat god tier

Heavy suppressed Whis is suppressed.

[Nejishiki]

he point is that Super Saiyan Black already surpassed Super Saiyan God (the level Goku used against Beerus and Hit) in Chapter #20. If Zamasu says Black achieved a form which surpass Super Saiyan God, it means Black could have a Super Saiyan God form stronger than his own Super Saiyan form. The comment about the form being pink is to contrast with the Blue of Goku and Vegeta.

That's the distinction where I think our connections are failing, ahah. I'm referring to the literal state of Super Saiyan God, its essence if you will. Goku Black's Super Saiyan Rosé utilized & surpassed Super Saiyan God's "essence" (again, not to be literal-minded, it's for lack of a better term) with Super Saiyan unlike with his normal usage of Super Saiyan. It was the element of Goku's strength he lacked before Future Zamasu recovered him from the brink of death.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Looks like Toyotaro is still going with the low gap between SSJ1/2 and SSBlue, Black went from getting thrashed by SSJ2 Vegeta to wrecking SSBlue Vegeta in the same form, so unless he got the biggest Zenkai in DB history the gap between SSJ and SSBlue is indeed not all that large.

[Bullza]

The biggest zenkai was Goku's when he was about to fight Frieza right? He got about 34 times stronger which all that tells you is these zenkai boosts are just for the sake of plot.

Plus reading the newest chapter it was heavily implied that Black let himself get trashed. So he might never have been weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta after all. Logically he never should have been weaker anyway.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The biggest zenkai was Goku's when he was about to fight Frieza right? He got about 34 times stronger which all that tells you is these zenkai boosts are just for the sake of plot.

Plus reading the newest chapter it was heavily implied that Black let himself get trashed. So he might never have been weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta after all. Logically he never should have been weaker anyway.

Looking back at the last 2 chapters, it seems like Black really was getting completely overpowered. If Zamasu hadn't appeared in the nick of time he would have been killed. So while it did work out favorably for him in the end, he probably wasn't planning to get beaten that badly from the start. Judging by his comment to Zamasu about him taking this time, he probably wanted Zamasu to arrive a lot sooner.

[TheUltimateNinja]

For the people who believe that Black's power is comprised of Goku's and Zamasu's combined, how do you explain this chapter's implication that Zamasu is weaker than SSJ Goku?

[TheMikado]

For the people who believe that Black's power is comprised of Goku's and Zamasu's combined, how do you explain this chapter's implication that Zamasu is weaker than SSJ Goku?

When Black started out he was still pretty weak in the manga, as he fought more his Goku side grew as he stated himself. So stronger than base Goku, but not quite SSJ level.

[TheUltimateNinja]

For the people who believe that Black's power is comprised of Goku's and Zamasu's combined, how do you explain this chapter's implication that Zamasu is weaker than SSJ Goku?

When Black started out he was still pretty weak in the manga, as he fought more his Goku side grew as he stated himself. So stronger than base Goku, but not quite SSJ level.

Black is already SSJ3 level in base, though, since he can beat Trunks easily and Trunks is pretty close to SSJ3 Goku. And since Base Goku isn't even 1% of SSJ3, the vast majority of that power must come from Zamasu, thus Zamasu should be very close to SSJ3 at least.