Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dbgtFO]

For the people who believe that Black's power is comprised of Goku's and Zamasu's combined, how do you explain this chapter's implication that Zamasu is weaker than SSJ Goku?

When Black started out he was still pretty weak in the manga, as he fought more his Goku side grew as he stated himself. So stronger than base Goku, but not quite SSJ level.

Black is already SSJ3 level in base, though, since he can beat Trunks easily and Trunks is pretty close to SSJ3 Goku. And since Base Goku isn't even 1% of SSJ3, the vast majority of that power must come from Zamasu, thus Zamasu should be very close to SSJ3 at least.

Black didn't start out SS3 level. He needed to use SS at first against Trunks in their earliest off-screen battles until he got so strong he could destroy him in base.

[LowRyder2005]

Also the new episode preview has ssj goku deflect a ki blast from whis thus confirming goku ssj forms are in fact god tier thus making current gohan somewhat god tier

Does it? We can already deduce that Whis was suppressing himself, since he should still be - more or less vastly - stronger than Super Saiyan Blue + Kaioken Goku. This would already make the scene hardly conclusive about the current strength debates.

The biggest zenkai was Goku's when he was about to fight Frieza right? He got about 34 times stronger which all that tells you is these zenkai boosts are just for the sake of plot.

Plus reading the newest chapter it was heavily implied that Black let himself get trashed. So he might never have been weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta after all. Logically he never should have been weaker anyway.

Looking back at the last 2 chapters, it seems like Black really was getting completely overpowered. If Zamasu hadn't appeared in the nick of time he would have been killed. So while it did work out favorably for him in the end, he probably wasn't planning to get beaten that badly from the start. Judging by his comment to Zamasu about him taking this time, he probably wanted Zamasu to arrive a lot sooner.

Personally, after reading the latest chapter, I think it's reasonable to think of it as Black letting Vegeta beat him up regardless of Vegeta almost killing him (an unforeseen result, perhaps). It could be rebuked Black could've done the same in base, though. I s'pose that maybe doing what he did as Super Saiyan 2 increased the benefits of the regeneration process. Or maybe it was Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 that has been stronger than Goku's Super Saiyan 3 ever since BOG.
It's definitely one of the otherwise weakest parts of the power scaling implications thus far - or if anything something that lacks an explicit clarification - but since I believe the anime list of headscratchers could have its own wikia by now I'm more than willing to cut the manga redition some slack.

[TheUltimateNinja]

When Black started out he was still pretty weak in the manga, as he fought more his Goku side grew as he stated himself. So stronger than base Goku, but not quite SSJ level.

Black is already SSJ3 level in base, though, since he can beat Trunks easily and Trunks is pretty close to SSJ3 Goku. And since Base Goku isn't even 1% of SSJ3, the vast majority of that power must come from Zamasu, thus Zamasu should be very close to SSJ3 at least.

Black didn't start out SS3 level. He needed to use SS at first against Trunks in their earliest off-screen battles until he got so strong he could destroy him in base.

I know, but given the 10x gap between SSJ and SSBlue established back in the U6 arc, Black can't have powered up all that much or his power level Pre-Zenkai would be more than enough to beat Vegeta. It becomes a lot harder to rationalize the power scale in this arc if Zamasu is inferior to SSJ Goku, without that restriction you could go with something like this:
Zamasu: 125
SSJ2 Trunks: 140
Black (Initial): 125 + 1 = 126
SSJ Black: 125 + 50 = 175
Black (Current): 150 + 1.2 = 151.2
SSJ2 Black: 150 + 120 = 270
SSJ2 Vegeta: 300

[Freezerbaby]

Black is already SSJ3 level in base, though, since he can beat Trunks easily and Trunks is pretty close to SSJ3 Goku. And since Base Goku isn't even 1% of SSJ3, the vast majority of that power must come from Zamasu, thus Zamasu should be very close to SSJ3 at least.

Black didn't start out SS3 level. He needed to use SS at first against Trunks in their earliest off-screen battles until he got so strong he could destroy him in base.

I know, but given the 10x gap between SSJ and SSBlue established back in the U6 arc, Black can't have powered up all that much or his power level Pre-Zenkai would be more than enough to beat Vegeta. It becomes a lot harder to rationalize the power scale in this arc if Zamasu is inferior to SSJ Goku, without that restriction you could go with something like this:
Zamasu: 125
SSJ2 Trunks: 140
Black (Initial): 125 + 1 = 126
SSJ Black: 125 + 50 = 175
Black (Current): 150 + 1.2 = 151.2
SSJ2 Black: 150 + 120 = 270
SSJ2 Vegeta: 300

10x gap btwn ssj and ssjblue??? where was that stated or established?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Black didn't start out SS3 level. He needed to use SS at first against Trunks in their earliest off-screen battles until he got so strong he could destroy him in base.

I know, but given the 10x gap between SSJ and SSBlue established back in the U6 arc, Black can't have powered up all that much or his power level Pre-Zenkai would be more than enough to beat Vegeta. It becomes a lot harder to rationalize the power scale in this arc if Zamasu is inferior to SSJ Goku, without that restriction you could go with something like this:
Zamasu: 125
SSJ2 Trunks: 140
Black (Initial): 125 + 1 = 126
SSJ Black: 125 + 50 = 175
Black (Current): 150 + 1.2 = 151.2
SSJ2 Black: 150 + 120 = 270
SSJ2 Vegeta: 300

10x gap btwn ssj and ssjblue??? where was that stated or established?

During the Hit fight. Beerus states that SSJ Goku is stronger than Hit and without the timeskip he'd defeat him, and since 10% of SSBlue Vegeta is also around that same level, the gap is 10x.

[HeroR]

Also the new episode preview has ssj goku deflect a ki blast from whis thus confirming goku ssj forms are in fact god tier thus making current gohan somewhat god tier

Does it? We can already deduce that Whis was suppressing himself, since he should still be - more or less vastly - stronger than Super Saiyan Blue + Kaioken Goku. This would already make the scene hardly conclusive about the current strength debates.

Whis suppressed himself when fighting Goku and Vegeta at the same time and they never touched him. He also never attacked them, just dodged and blocked once.

[Marlowe89]

Whis suppressed himself when fighting Goku and Vegeta at the same time and they never touched him. He also never attacked them, just dodged and blocked once.

What's your point? Whis could easily suppress himself to any level of strength he wants for the sake of training. Launching a blast at Goku doesn't actually provide any way of quantifying Goku's power.

[HeroR]

Whis suppressed himself when fighting Goku and Vegeta at the same time and they never touched him. He also never attacked them, just dodged and blocked once.

What's your point? Whis could easily suppress himself to any level of strength he wants for the sake of training. Launching a blast at Goku doesn't actually provide any way of quantifying Goku's power.

The biggest different is that all the times we have seen Vegeta fight Whis, he never touched him. However, if you look at the preview, we see Goku in his base form actually hitting Whis' staff. And why would Whis suppressed himself below what he usually gives Vegeta to Goku?

[Marlowe89]

And why would Whis suppressed himself below what he usually gives Vegeta to Goku?

You just said yourself that Whis never attacked them before. He could have simply suppressed himself to a more appropriate power level for that particular exercise.

Wait until the episode before jumping to conclusions.

[TheUltimateNinja]

And why would Whis suppressed himself below what he usually gives Vegeta to Goku?

You just said yourself that Whis never attacked them before. He could have simply suppressed himself to a more appropriate power level for that particular exercise.

Wait until the episode before jumping to conclusions.

Unless Whis has suddenly decided to kill them it does indeed seem pretty obvious that he's further suppressed his power.

[HeroR]

And why would Whis suppressed himself below what he usually gives Vegeta to Goku?

You just said yourself that Whis never attacked them before. He could have simply suppressed himself to a more appropriate power level for that particular exercise.

Wait until the episode before jumping to conclusions.

I am not jumping to conclusions. I just said that Whis has never attacked before in all his training with Goku or Vegeta. He usually just dodge and he only blocked once, and it was when Goku and Vegeta were attacking at the same time. If we count the movie, he attack once to instantly knock out Vegeta. Also, Goku clearly hit Whis' staff several times, although I admit that could be part of the drill. And why would he make himself weaker to attack? If he's going to attack, he should be on the same level as he was when he's dodging.

It may turn out to be nothing, but it's noticeable.

Unless Whis has suddenly decided to kill them it does indeed seem pretty obvious that he's further suppressed his power.

That isn't the point. The point is that a surpassed Whis has never attacked Goku or Vegeta in Super, and he has never used an energy attack before. Goku also hit Whis' staff in the NEP, but even I said it may be part of the drill, although he never did it with Vegeta. Could be nothing, but not something that should be dismissed off-hand.

[Marlowe89]

The point is that a surpassed Whis has never attacked Goku or Vegeta in Super, and he has never used an energy attack before.

Which is why he could be suppressing himself to a lower level than last time. Maybe he wants to gauge how Goku responds to attacks. Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

You're the only person here missing the point and nothing shown in the preview was even slightly noteworthy. If Whis is suppressed and doesn't specify how much strength he's suppressing, you've got nothing.

[HeroR]

The point is that a surpassed Whis has never attacked Goku or Vegeta in Super, and he has never used an energy attack before.

Which is why he could be suppressing himself to a lower level than last time. Maybe he wants to gauge how Goku responds to attacks. Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

You're the only person here missing the point and nothing shown in the preview was even slightly noteworthy. If Whis is suppressed and doesn't specify how much strength he's suppressing, you've got nothing.

But that still wouldn't make much sense since if Goku is improving to the point that he can actually do something to Whis while he's just dodging, unlike Vegeta who couldn't even touch him. Attacking on that level would be the next step. Wouldn't make much sense for Whis to weaken himself just to attack, otherwise he could just keep dodging or do what he did in Resurrection 'F' and point out how he could have knocked Goku out.

And I have pointed out that despite all the training sessions, Whis has never attacked, yet we see him doing here, which is noteworthy. You're the one being dismissive here, especially when I said it could be nothing, but it's something interesting. I am also not sure what you mean by 'you're the only person here missing the point', when at least two other posters made the same observation.

[zamasu121]

And why would Whis suppressed himself below what he usually gives Vegeta to Goku?

You just said yourself that Whis never attacked them before. He could have simply suppressed himself to a more appropriate power level for that particular exercise.

Wait until the episode before jumping to conclusions.

Unless Whis has suddenly decided to kill them it does indeed seem pretty obvious that he's further suppressed his power.

Not to mention that he fires a ki attack and goku decides to transform so he could easily deflect it. Goku base form is not god tier, but i guess we are gonna find out in the tournament.

[HeroR]

You just said yourself that Whis never attacked them before. He could have simply suppressed himself to a more appropriate power level for that particular exercise.

Wait until the episode before jumping to conclusions.

Unless Whis has suddenly decided to kill them it does indeed seem pretty obvious that he's further suppressed his power.

Not to mention that he fires a ki attack and goku decides to transform so he could easily deflect it. Goku base form is not god tier, but i guess we are gonna find out in the tournament.

And what is 'God tier' in this context?

[zamasu121]

Unless Whis has suddenly decided to kill them it does indeed seem pretty obvious that he's further suppressed his power.

Not to mention that he fires a ki attack and goku decides to transform so he could easily deflect it. Goku base form is not god tier, but i guess we are gonna find out in the tournament.

And what is 'God tier' in this context?

It seems like goku ssg absorption has been retconned and whis is just going easy on him.

[HeroR]

It seems like goku ssg absorption has been retconned and whis is just going easy on him.

And what makes you think it's been retcon?

[Lord Beerus]

It seems like goku ssg absorption has been retconned and whis is just going easy on him.

And what makes you think it's been retcon?

I think the Super Saiyan God power Goku absorbed just eventually faded away once Goku's fight with Beerus was over in the BOG arc. And then at some point when training with Whis, Goku was exposed to God Ki again, controlled it, mastered it and then learned to combine with Super Saiyan, resulting in the creation of Super Saiyan Blue. The big problem is that we don't know when Goku and Vegeta were exposed to God ki again. The best assumption to make is that it happened while they were inside the special dimension of Whis' staff.

[TheUltimateNinja]

So, with SSBlue being 10x SSJ, is there any way to fit the Buu Arc power levels below SSGod Goku? By retconning SSJ3 to 3x SSJ and giving SSGod a 400x multiplier, I think it can be done.
Buu Arc Goku: 0.8
SSJ Goku: 40
SSJ2 Goku: 80
SSJ3 Goku: 120
Majin Buu: 90
Gotenks: 1.8
SSJ Gotenks: 90
SSJ3 Gotenks: 270
Super Buu: 250
Ultimate Gohan: 300
Buutenks: 340
Buuhan: 350
Vegetto: 8
SSJ Vegetto: 400
BoG Goku: 1
SSGod Goku: 400

[zamasu121]

It seems like goku ssg absorption has been retconned and whis is just going easy on him.

And what makes you think it's been retcon?

I find it very hard to believe that nearly everyone from the u6 tournament is ssg level.