Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

And not everyone is at 'Super Saiyan God level', which isn't even a level since it's a multiplier.

When people say SSGod level they're obviously referring to SSGod Goku.

Super Saiyan should never be used as a 'level'. That is why we got people saying, 'Piccolo is Super Saiyan level', when Piccolo got surpassed by Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Future Trunks in the Cell Saga when they were Super Saiyans. That is also why some fans believe that anyone who's equal to Super Saiyan Goku no matter the saga is only as strong as Namek Saga Goku.

By the time rof was released, fans were making fun of gohan because of how weak he´d become, he was barely able to transform into ssj and was one shot by 1st form freeza, which should be around ssj2 level, so no, that ssj gohan was precisely a far cry from his ultimate power in the boo saga.

On the other hand you are right about him not wanting to spar has nothing to do with his strenght, I just wanted to point out how uninterested he is now when it comes to training or fighting, making it very difficult for me to believe that he is now above ssj3 gotenks.

Just because fans were making fun of Gohan doesn't mean he was deathly weak. He was still the strongest out of all the Z-Fighters and Super showed this even more by showing that Gohan was much stronger than Piccolo in his base form. Depending on what you believed, Piccolo is either stronger than Super Vegeta or almost at Perfect Cell's level. Also, it was never said or implied that first form Freeza was only at 'Super Saiyan 2' level, which I assume you mean Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from the Cell Games. That is just something fans made up with no backing.

No, the person who brought it up was specifically arguing that it confirmed Super Saiyan Goku and by extension Gohan are God tier fighters. The preview is nothing in that regard because it doesn't confirm that notion at all, and "don't pretend otherwise" was a general statement aimed at those who would attempt to take that standpoint when the episode airs next week just because Goku exchanged blows with Whis and deflected a ki blast.

There might be something in the episode that does quantify Goku's strength in that manner, but it's certainly not in the preview itself.

Read my posts, did I agree with that person? All I said was there could some truth to it and it shouldn't be dismissed as nothing as some posters quickly did.

[Marlowe89]

Read my posts, did I agree with that person? All I said was there could some truth to it and it shouldn't be dismissed as nothing as some posters quickly did.

See, this is exactly what I mean when I say you're obviously not understanding the flow of this discussion at all.

Before you chimed in, this entire conversation has been about whether the PREVIEW (not the episode, which hasn't aired yet) confirmed what the poster who brought it up was attempting to argue. Since it doesn't confirm that, we can and frankly should dismiss it as nothing until the episode airs next week, because "nothing" is exactly what it is.

[HeroR]

Read my posts, did I agree with that person? All I said was there could some truth to it and it shouldn't be dismissed as nothing as some posters quickly did.

See, this is exactly what I mean when I say you're obviously not understanding the flow of this discussion at all.

Before you chimed in, this entire conversation has been about whether the PREVIEW (not the episode, which hasn't aired yet) confirmed what the poster who brought it up was attempting to argue. Since it doesn't confirm that, we can and frankly should dismiss it as nothing until the episode airs next week, because "nothing" is exactly what it is.

I did follow the 'flow of the conversation'. Someone said this confirmed Goku's base form was 'god level'. Then several uses jumped in and said it didn't because Whis was holding back. I pointed out that there is a chance that this shows Goku's base form is 'god level' since Whis never attacked before when sparring in Super. Then I get several posts telling me that proves nothing. When I argued back that it could mean something, I got your series of posts.

[Khin]

I’m not quite sure if Bulma is capable of upgrading the Androids, she spent days fixing #16 with the help of her father, and 16 was never said or implied to have been upgraded. But maybe Bulma has improved over the years.

I think training with Whis would be a better option for them to get stronger, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Beerus would only care about Goku and Vegeta’s training (like he was in the previous tournament) and would just let them do and pick whatever and whoever they want, and not train them. Though, with the consequence of losing the tournament, I wouldn’t surprised if Whis will train everyone either, assuming they’ll know about the consequence of losing the tournament right from the start.

Also, when did she say her power level was higher than theirs? And who was she talking to?

In episode 20 of Super, and in the movie version of Resurrection F. She said it when she was talking to Kuririn.

Minute: 19
Android No.18: “I'll come, too. My battle power is much higher than you guys.”
Significance: This line was also in RF. First off, apparently one sub mistranslates this as ""I have as much power as you guys do". Glossing over Kuririn’s fairly ridiculous reasons for not wanting 18 to come fight (“Protect our kid! And make dinner!”), what I mainly want to focus on here is that she uses the term “battle power” (戦闘力/sentou-ryoku, aka “power level” etc). In the original manga and anime, this was lingo only used by Freeza’s army. There were a few exceptions, but the only Z Warrior to ever routinely use the phrase was Vegeta, as a holdover from his time as one of Freeza’s scouter-wearing goons (similar to how he always insists on referring to Goku as “Kakarot”).

[Noah]

So, last episode Goku took a punch from Saiyan arc Vegeta, that could mean Goku's a fodder now? Explaining how he could fight toe-toe with Gohan?
Totally not serious lol

[TheUltimateNinja]

So, last episode Goku took a punch from Saiyan arc Vegeta, that could mean Goku's a fodder now? Explaining how he could fight toe-toe with Gohan?
Totally not serious lol

Actually this confirms my theory that Saiyan Arc Vegeta is God tier. Remember how he had reddish hair when we first saw him? He already unlocked SSGod back then.

[Freeza9000]

So, last episode Goku took a punch from Saiyan arc Vegeta, that could mean Goku's a fodder now? Explaining how he could fight toe-toe with Gohan?
Totally not serious lol

First off, the characters Goku and Krillin are facing are illusions that simply can't be defeated unless one calms their mind, those illusions will paralyze.
Second, you might as well say Bulma has reached godhood because she slapped Beerus hard or Beerus is fodder because he got hurt by Yamcha.

[Bullza]

For the people who believe that Black's power is comprised of Goku's and Zamasu's combined, how do you explain this chapter's implication that Zamasu is weaker than SSJ Goku?

That doesn't appear to be the case. It was a theory we mentioned but the latest chapter made it clear that he'd been abusing zenkais to get as strong as he is.

[TheUltimateNinja]

For the people who believe that Black's power is comprised of Goku's and Zamasu's combined, how do you explain this chapter's implication that Zamasu is weaker than SSJ Goku?

That doesn't appear to be the case. It was a theory we mentioned but the latest chapter made it clear that he'd been abusing zenkais to get as strong as he is.

In that case his multipliers should be the same as Goku's and Vegeta's.

[TheMikado]

For the people who believe that Black's power is comprised of Goku's and Zamasu's combined, how do you explain this chapter's implication that Zamasu is weaker than SSJ Goku?

That doesn't appear to be the case. It was a theory we mentioned but the latest chapter made it clear that he'd been abusing zenkais to get as strong as he is.

In that case his multipliers should be the same as Goku's and Vegeta's.

I don't see why it still couldn't work. The percentage of strength from Goku would just grow over time, he would still get boosts to power but depending on the percentage it wouldn't be as large and use his full power.

[TheUltimateNinja]

That doesn't appear to be the case. It was a theory we mentioned but the latest chapter made it clear that he'd been abusing zenkais to get as strong as he is.

In that case his multipliers should be the same as Goku's and Vegeta's.

I don't see why it still couldn't work. The percentage of strength from Goku would just grow over time, he would still get boosts to power but depending on the percentage it wouldn't be as large and use his full power.

Considering he's SSJ3 level in base, the vast majority of his power has to come from Goku by this point.

[TheMikado]

In that case his multipliers should be the same as Goku's and Vegeta's.

I don't see why it still couldn't work. The percentage of strength from Goku would just grow over time, he would still get boosts to power but depending on the percentage it wouldn't be as large and use his full power.

Considering he's SSJ3 level in base, the vast majority of his power has to come from Goku by this point.

I would say so, but it would also mean SSJ boost wouldn't be quite so large either.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I don't see why it still couldn't work. The percentage of strength from Goku would just grow over time, he would still get boosts to power but depending on the percentage it wouldn't be as large and use his full power.

Considering he's SSJ3 level in base, the vast majority of his power has to come from Goku by this point.

I would say so, but it would also mean SSJ boost wouldn't be quite so large either.

It would be huge, even if you ignore SSJ3's 400x multiplier and make it 150x.
Base Goku/Vegeta: 1
Zamasu: 40
SSJ Goku: 50
SSJ2 Trunks: 140
SSJ3 Goku/Black: 150
Since Zamasu is only 40 here, the Goku side of Black would have to be 110, thus his SSJ2 would be 11,000

[Bullza]

I don't really get why he'd be having zenkai boosts at all though.

They said Goku and Vegeta wouldn't get one because they've pretty much trained to their limit. However isn't the body that Zamasu stole from the future a Goku who would have trained to his limit?

Unless Zamasu taking over Goku created a whole new potential for him.

[ekrolo2]

I don't really get why he'd be having zenkai boosts at all though.

They said Goku and Vegeta wouldn't get one because they've pretty much trained to their limit. However isn't the body that Zamasu stole from the future a Goku who would have trained to his limit?

Unless Zamasu taking over Goku created a whole new potential for him.

Ki's a mental and physical energy, Goku's body might have been pushed to its limits but Zamasu's mind hasn't. The Zenkai probably make the two of them more in-sync with one another.

[Ki Breaker]

I don't really get why he'd be having zenkai boosts at all though.

They said Goku and Vegeta wouldn't get one because they've pretty much trained to their limit. However isn't the body that Zamasu stole from the future a Goku who would have trained to his limit?

Unless Zamasu taking over Goku created a whole new potential for him.

His mind can't access all of that energy future Goku's body Already achieved, the zenkais help unlock it bit by bit to him, in the end him being able to transform to that body's highest state

[Hugo Boss]

I don't really get why he'd be having zenkai boosts at all though.

They said Goku and Vegeta wouldn't get one because they've pretty much trained to their limit. However isn't the body that Zamasu stole from the future a Goku who would have trained to his limit?

Unless Zamasu taking over Goku created a whole new potential for him.

Ki's a mental and physical energy, Goku's body might have been pushed to its limits but Zamasu's mind hasn't. The Zenkai probably make the two of them more in-sync with one another.

Yeah, that's precisely what Black meant by making the Saiyan cells more and more his own. Or perhaps Goku still has room for improvement.

[Nejishiki]

However isn't the body that Zamasu stole from the future a Goku who would have trained to his limit?

Unless Zamasu taking over Goku created a whole new potential for him.

When Goku Black recovers from near death experiences, his new cells replace Goku's dead cells. To put it simply, it's becoming less & less of Goku's original body by the time Goku Black achieves Super Saiyan Rosé. The new "skin" is adapting to the lost Kaio's soul. Therefore, Goku Black is utilizing a "new" Saiyan body to strengthen himself.

[Marlowe89]

His mind can't access all of that energy future Goku's body Already achieved, the zenkais help unlock it bit by bit to him, in the end him being able to transform to that body's highest state

This. It's actually more simple than some people are making it out to be - Zamasu probably just didn't have access to all of future Goku's power. Goku pushed himself to his own body's limits but Black didn't, and that's why Black can utilize zenkai boosts to catch up.

It also just occurred to me that this would make EoZ base Goku at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku from the Buu saga (probably much stronger, actually) no matter how you interpret Super's power scale.

[TheUltimateNinja]

His mind can't access all of that energy future Goku's body Already achieved, the zenkais help unlock it bit by bit to him, in the end him being able to transform to that body's highest state

This. It's actually more simple than some people are making it out to be - Zamasu probably just didn't have access to all of future Goku's power. Goku pushed himself to his own body's limits but Black didn't, and that's why Black can utilize zenkai boosts to catch up.

It also just occurred to me that this would make EoZ base Goku at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku from the Buu saga (probably much stronger, actually) no matter how you interpret Super's power scale.

This doesn't make sense because Black is leagues stronger than Goku, if what you say is true they'd be equals. The potential Black is unlocking isn't Goku's, it stems from Zamasu.