"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The gr » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:45 pm

Boo Machine wrote:
The gr wrote:
Boo Machine wrote:
Well for me, the origins of a character rarely influence my like for them. If the origins are going to be dumb then the character better make it up as a damn entertaining character. And in the anime he was very much entertaining. I wouldn't call his manga counter part bad, just underwhelming in comparison.
Well the manga motivation of goku black was underwhelming but I'm hoping goku black goes to a speech about why he choose Goku because we seriously need that
    but man Goku black anime makes no God damn sense that it almost damage the arc

    I never really saw the origin to be arc breaking. Sure there is a weird logic to the loop they are using, but it was never really detrimental to the story, as I feel like all the pieces were there. Zamasu hates Goku, takes Goku's body out of spite. And of course to use his power. The pieces may not all fit together very well, but I view it as having the pieces to a puzzle where one of the pieces doesn't fit. It's a bit frustrating that it's so close to perfect, but it's harmless if that last piece doesn't make it in and I'm fine with leaving the piece there. I know what the picture is supposed to look like. At least that's how I do my puzzles.

    I'm not good with puzzles.
    Well in my opinion it almost damage the arc because a timeline with zamasu switching body with goku should never happened in the first place but this arc was entertaining and goku black is an awesome villain
    Doctor. wrote:
    The gr wrote: The time travel makes no sense in the manga either because the mistake is on Toriyama's end.
    so wait the manga also created a time loop
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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by JulieYBM » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:49 pm

    Cipher wrote:
    Jinzoningen MULE wrote:I'd go a step further. I think that Toei's staff gets it just fine (how couldn't they, these plots are very simple), but choose not to care cause reasons. Moreover, they assume the audience is too stupid to know the difference, which some might be insulted by.
    I was just going to respond to that image by quipping "5/10, not enough red string," but I wound up reading through parts of it. Noting the time ring not being present in Black's design was a new one for me.

    I think it is the case that Toyotaro simply puts more time and effort into executing a consistent story -- both in terms of plot and characters -- than Toei does given the same material. Part of that is simply the difference between the work of a singular super-fan versus a staff of varying writers on multiple series. But part of it ... doesn't really feel excusable. If Toei were to have one or two more meetings in a writers' room with everyone giving their all, could they really not catch the timeline issues, find a way to address where Zamasu's been, realize how many moments highlighting Goku's ignorance they're writing into one arc, etc.? It really does feel like a case of everyone putting in minimal effort, in terms of ensuring the series presents a coherent story. I'm not sure how often the Super writers all get together, but it's not enough. This is all low-hanging fruit.

    Unfortunately Toyotaro is still confined to a monthly promotional manga without the space or schedule to tell the story on his own terms, or even ones that feel completely natural. It'll never quite read like a stand-alone product, while the anime very much operates as one (ignoring the adaptation arcs). I don't think it's so much a matter of comparing the manga to the anime and proclaiming a clear winner. More than anything, I just wish we could get someone as attentive and invested as Toyotaro as showrunner.
    Most of the scripts for the Future Trunks arc are written by Tomioka Atsuhiro, a legendary anime writer known for his speed and quality output. He helped turn the Pocket Monster franchise around when he took over series composition for Diamond & Pearl, but before that he also wrote Samurai Seven. That being said, a writer isn't the only voice in Japanese cartoon production. In fact, the real guiding voice is the series director, a role played by Hatano Morio. The series composer is typically just there to put a series director's ideas into script form, which can be later adapted and toyed with during the storyboarding stage. We know that Dragon Ball Super has no 'series composition' position in an officially credited capacity and this is something I have always attributed to the series being based off of story notes by Toriyama Akira as well as in general being a made-by-committee series. We already know that a Dragon Ball Room has been building for a while now and I'm beginning to think that Shueisha is using that committee mindset to dictate the main version of the Dragon Ball Super brand, the animated series. The set-up is similar to how the Pretty Cure franchise is built up, too, where producers are actively involved (in an almost Hollywood-way) with trying to tie the merchandise into every aspect of the scripts.

    Anyway, I definitely don't feel like the production staff are getting their full control over the series. There are too many cooks in the kitchen and not enough leeway given to its top creative minds.
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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by Zephyr » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:49 pm

    Doctor. wrote:The time travel makes no sense in the manga either because the mistake is on Toriyama's end.
    How do you figure?

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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by Doctor. » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:51 pm

    I suggest you read this thread to get a better understanding. The time travel doesn't work as long as Beerus is causing the split.

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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by Zephyr » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:55 pm

    Doctor. wrote:I suggest you read this thread to get a better understanding. The time travel doesn't work as long as Beerus is causing the split.
    Toriyama's needless abandonment of the butterfly effect certainly negatively impacts both versions of the story. Fortunately for the manga, however, it doesn't add a causal loop paradox on top of that.

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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by The gr » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:57 pm

    Doctor. wrote:I suggest you read this thread to get a better understanding. The time travel doesn't work as long as Beerus is causing the split.
    Ah dang it I forgot that beerus created a split timeline in both the manga and anime which is also bs
    TheUltimateNinja wrote:
    Doctor. wrote:
    The gr wrote:You know I find it hilarious that manga goku black origins avoided a bullshit time paradox yet it get criticized but in the anime goku black has the most bullshit origins that make no fucking sense yet it get praised or unless the manga has a bullshit time paradox that I'm not noticing it
      and unpopular opinion goku rage scene in ep 61 was awful and it did not make sense
      The time travel makes no sense in the manga either because the mistake is on Toriyama's end.
      Manga Zamasu doesn't even have a reason to pick Goku's body specifically since he never interacted with him personally and only knows of him through the tournament broadcast.
      well the reason he chose goku because he afraid the fact that a mortal exploit god ki, befriended Zeno and stop majin buu which he thought the kaioshin of u7 did that job
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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:54 pm

      mfwlegend3 wrote:In regards to chapter 20, one thing I thought was disappointing was the absence of Black and Zamasu Grade-A teamwork. Also, Goku was defeated easily before he even got a chance to fight against Black himself.

      I don't think Toyotaro is a good enough artist to pull the teamwork off like the anime did, if that's even probable in his format to begin with.
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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by Cipher » Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:49 pm

      JulieYBM wrote:That being said, a writer isn't the only voice in Japanese cartoon production. In fact, the real guiding voice is the series director, a role played by Hatano Morio. The series composer is typically just there to put a series director's ideas into script form, which can be later adapted and toyed with during the storyboarding stage. We know that Dragon Ball Super has no 'series composition' position in an officially credited capacity and this is something I have always attributed to the series being based off of story notes by Toriyama Akira as well as in general being a made-by-committee series. We already know that a Dragon Ball Room has been building for a while now and I'm beginning to think that Shueisha is using that committee mindset to dictate the main version of the Dragon Ball Super brand, the animated series. The set-up is similar to how the Pretty Cure franchise is built up, too, where producers are actively involved (in an almost Hollywood-way) with trying to tie the merchandise into every aspect of the scripts.
      Whatever the case, and perhaps it's due to Toriyama's notes filling the role normally dedicated to series composer, I can't help but feel that, from bits of plot inconsistency to unintentional character trends, the series simply reflects a lack of a singular guiding voice or inter-writer oversight. I'd be curious to know how much everyone touches base or how often scripts are reviewed for consistency and over-arching characterization after divvying up the initial plot points. It doesn't feel like there's a singular showrunner (to borrow a term I'm familiar with from Western television production) living and breathing the material and willing to make corrections, which couldn't be more important for a serialized work. Perhaps it's also a matter of Super's schedule not allowing for such detailed oversight or corrections. I have no idea how much time writers have between getting script assignments and other elements of production needing to start. Probably not as much as they should.

      As far as Tomioka Atsuhiro's output in the Trunks arc, he certainly does an admirable job. But if his comfort lies mainly in episodic series (which, unless it's changed drastically since I was last familiar with it, would include Pocket Monsters), I think that's reflected in some unfavorable ways in dialogue and characterization. The repeated joke beats, including the ones at Goku's expense people took such issue with last arc, feel very typical of a writing style befitting episodic scripts rather than tightly serialized ones. It's certainly something we never got when most episodes were adapted directly from Toriyama's manga. It's decent writing in twenty-minute chunks, but it leads to some odd artifacts in an overall serialized storyline, and my dream of dreams for the series would be to have someone in a position to catch that.
      Anyway, I definitely don't feel like the production staff are getting their full control over the series. There are too many cooks in the kitchen and not enough leeway given to its top creative minds.
      I think we're in total agreement there.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by The gr » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:51 pm

      Lord Beerus wrote:
      emperior wrote:
      mfwlegend3 wrote:Post from /a/ regarding the anime and manga. Thoughts?
      [spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
      Different strokes for different folks. I like the manga a lot for its more consistent art style, streamlined story and workable power scale. But it comes at the cost of actual character development or breather periods which helped the story feel more engrossing and less rushed. Yes, the manga has better pacing but the overall narrative, especially if you imagine a scenario where the anime doesn't exist, feels so half baked. I don't know where this notion that Toyotaro's take on the Toriyama's plot outline is more accurate, but this mentality really need to die because it's flat out false. I also don't agree that Goku has become an idiot,a and I've explained why that is the case at ad nauseum, or that Frost is handled any better in the manga because A) he has no character in the manga and B) he is compared to Freeza in both mediums. Plus, the manga also retains the stable time loop issue that resulted in Goku Black's existence being a literal paradox. Nevertheless, I think the manga and anime do well in complementing each other and cancelling out their weakness and playing up to their strengths and both mediums deserves their fair share of praise and criticism form what they've done well and what they haven't done well. Remember folks, you can like both of them and whatever you think is better is entirely your opinion, and not any others.

      EDIT: Also, one thing I forgot to mention is that considering the manga is basically a promotion tool for the anime, the fact that it manages to handle some aspects of the story better than the anime is something that truly had to be admired for what is basically a glorified advertisement of a show that was blatantly created for the purpose of pimping out more toys and cards.
      DBS manga is a rare case of promotional materials that expand things and explain things better than the DBS anime which is frightening to me
        now I want to see a chapter to expand goku black origins and show him killing the kaioshin and give us a legit reason why he choose Goku,i want to see a special chapter about that in vol 3
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        Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

        Post by JulieYBM » Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:24 am

        Cipher wrote:
        JulieYBM wrote:That being said, a writer isn't the only voice in Japanese cartoon production. In fact, the real guiding voice is the series director, a role played by Hatano Morio. The series composer is typically just there to put a series director's ideas into script form, which can be later adapted and toyed with during the storyboarding stage. We know that Dragon Ball Super has no 'series composition' position in an officially credited capacity and this is something I have always attributed to the series being based off of story notes by Toriyama Akira as well as in general being a made-by-committee series. We already know that a Dragon Ball Room has been building for a while now and I'm beginning to think that Shueisha is using that committee mindset to dictate the main version of the Dragon Ball Super brand, the animated series. The set-up is similar to how the Pretty Cure franchise is built up, too, where producers are actively involved (in an almost Hollywood-way) with trying to tie the merchandise into every aspect of the scripts.
        Whatever the case, and perhaps it's due to Toriyama's notes filling the role normally dedicated to series composer, I can't help but feel that, from bits of plot inconsistency to unintentional character trends, the series simply reflects a lack of a singular guiding voice or inter-writer oversight. I'd be curious to know how much everyone touches base or how often scripts are reviewed for consistency and over-arching characterization after divvying up the initial plot points. It doesn't feel like there's a singular showrunner (to borrow a term I'm familiar with from Western television production) living and breathing the material and willing to make corrections, which couldn't be more important for a serialized work. Perhaps it's also a matter of Super's schedule not allowing for such detailed oversight or corrections. I have no idea how much time writers have between getting script assignments and other elements of production needing to start. Probably not as much as they should.

        As far as Tomioka Atsuhiro's output in the Trunks arc, he certainly does an admirable job. But if his comfort lies mainly in episodic series (which, unless it's changed drastically since I was last familiar with it, would include Pocket Monsters), I think that's reflected in some unfavorable ways in dialogue and characterization. The repeated joke beats, including the ones at Goku's expense people took such issue with last arc, feel very typical of a writing style befitting episodic scripts rather than tightly serialized ones. It's certainly something we never got when most episodes were adapted directly from Toriyama's manga. It's decent writing in twenty-minute chunks, but it leads to some odd artifacts in an overall serialized storyline, and my dream of dreams for the series would be to have someone in a position to catch that.
        Anyway, I definitely don't feel like the production staff are getting their full control over the series. There are too many cooks in the kitchen and not enough leeway given to its top creative minds.
        I think we're in total agreement there.
        Japanese animation doesn't quite have Hollywood's 'show runner' concept. Ours are usually just writers who have become producers, but the chain is a bit different with Japanese animation. The 'series director' role is basically like a film director, but overseeing an entire series. Most series directors are either production assistants who moved up the ranks as enshutsu (episode/unit/technical director) or animators who moved into directing (Sawa Ryoo-chimo). Because enshutsu are so much more well-rounded in terms of the roles they have to play, like storyboarding (the Japanese e-konte are the true scripts of anime), their directors are more like auteurs. A Hollywood show runner controls freelance directors, having final say on shots, takes and editing, whereas the Japanese system is all about individuality and relying on the sum of each part. Dragon Ball cartoons have tended to lack this somewhat, but if you'll recall, even Yama'uchi Shigeyasu's old episodes and films stood out, no matter who his animation supervisor was. That is the power of a good enshutsu and storyboard artist.

        As for Tomioka Atsuhiro, when he took over series composition for Pocket Monster he immediately began writing arcs. We would get two-to-five episode clusters written entirely by him, showing his dedication to adapting the storyline into scripts just right. Diamond & Pearl not only gave the series a awesome and satisfying rival for Satoshi in Shinji, but also exciting Contest arcs for Hikari, a deeper look into the world of the Pokemon League and truly grand battles. I'm not sure if this was something that Series Director Sutou Norihiko pushed for or not, but the fact that Tomioka wrote over sixty scripts out of 191 for the series and Asada Yuuji personally storyboarded and directed most of the episodes written by Tomioka goes to show that those two had a strong vision. Strong enough that Asada was credited as series director for the last twenty episodes and personally storyboarded and directed five of those last twenty episodes. Best Wishes saw less involvement from both Tomioka and Asada, but both were also involved in trying to make a satisfying story arc for XY. These two really pushed to evolve Pocket Monster television beyond it's terrible first two series.

        There's a lot of talent invested in this series, but no time for them to create their best work.
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        Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

        Post by The gr » Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:14 am

        I wonder why toyoytaro made goku black weak because it was stated that [spoiler]when zamasu switch body with goku he was incapable of using Goku's body, was a weakling who couldn't fight the Z-Fighters, and spent an entire year beating up a weaker Trunks to get stronger.[/spoiler]
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        Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

        Post by MyNiggaGoku » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:17 am

        The gr wrote:I wonder why toyoytaro made goku black weak because it was stated that [spoiler]when zamasu switch body with goku he was incapable of using Goku's body, was a weakling who couldn't fight the Z-Fighters, and spent an entire year beating up a weaker Trunks to get stronger.[/spoiler]
        He was probably shown to be weaker in order to show off how he gradually attained the power he has today,along with Rose.He decided to go through hell in the beginning in order to achieve a greater power which would help him creating his utopia.
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        Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

        Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:13 pm

        MyNiggaGoku wrote:
        The gr wrote:I wonder why toyoytaro made goku black weak because it was stated that [spoiler]when zamasu switch body with goku he was incapable of using Goku's body, was a weakling who couldn't fight the Z-Fighters, and spent an entire year beating up a weaker Trunks to get stronger.[/spoiler]
        He was probably shown to be weaker in order to show off how he gradually attained the power he has today,along with Rose.He decided to go through hell in the beginning in order to achieve a greater power which would help him creating his utopia.
        I don't mind that method. The issue I have with it is that he could have done that with Zamasu in a far more practical and efficient way. The way Goku Black goes about gaining Zenkai's is recklessly and unnecessarily stupid.

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        Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

        Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:15 pm

        Lord Beerus wrote:I don't mind that method. The issue I have with it is that he could have done that with Zamasu in a far more practical and efficient way. The way Goku Black goes about gaining Zenkai's is recklessly and unnecessarily stupid.
        Indeed, the anime did the right thing by having him get stronger depending on the strength of his adversary, meaning a weakling couldn't just beat him up over and over for him to get monumentally more powerful. What the anime fucked up is that Black is just randomly able to heal and/or is just as randomly impervious to damage. They really should've just said he used the Super DBs for immortality or for some kind of healing factor.
        When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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        Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

        Post by The gr » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:18 pm

        Lord Beerus wrote:
        MyNiggaGoku wrote:
        The gr wrote:I wonder why toyoytaro made goku black weak because it was stated that [spoiler]when zamasu switch body with goku he was incapable of using Goku's body, was a weakling who couldn't fight the Z-Fighters, and spent an entire year beating up a weaker Trunks to get stronger.[/spoiler]
        He was probably shown to be weaker in order to show off how he gradually attained the power he has today,along with Rose.He decided to go through hell in the beginning in order to achieve a greater power which would help him creating his utopia.
        I don't mind that method. The issue I have with it is that he could have done that with Zamasu in a far more practical and efficient way. The way Goku Black goes about gaining Zenkai's is recklessly and unnecessarily stupid.
        now I want to see a chapter where the z fighter from that timeline beat the living shit outta goku black
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        Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

        Post by MyNiggaGoku » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:19 pm

        Lord Beerus wrote:
        MyNiggaGoku wrote:
        The gr wrote:I wonder why toyoytaro made goku black weak because it was stated that [spoiler]when zamasu switch body with goku he was incapable of using Goku's body, was a weakling who couldn't fight the Z-Fighters, and spent an entire year beating up a weaker Trunks to get stronger.[/spoiler]
        He was probably shown to be weaker in order to show off how he gradually attained the power he has today,along with Rose.He decided to go through hell in the beginning in order to achieve a greater power which would help him creating his utopia.
        I don't mind that method. The issue I have with it is that he could have done that with Zamasu in a far more practical and efficient way. The way Goku Black goes about gaining Zenkai's is recklessly and unnecessarily stupid.
        I completely agree.However I imagine Black not wanting to fight Trunks at first because he was at a disadvantage and having his ass kicked a few times,resulting in F.Zamasu healing him & making him stronger.He maybe thought after all this,that F.Trunks is the ideal ''punching bag'' for him to get stronger.It makes sense to me,but it is all assumptions.
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        Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

        Post by Omniboy » Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:35 pm

        Lord Beerus wrote:
        MyNiggaGoku wrote:
        The gr wrote:I wonder why toyoytaro made goku black weak because it was stated that [spoiler]when zamasu switch body with goku he was incapable of using Goku's body, was a weakling who couldn't fight the Z-Fighters, and spent an entire year beating up a weaker Trunks to get stronger.[/spoiler]
        He was probably shown to be weaker in order to show off how he gradually attained the power he has today,along with Rose.He decided to go through hell in the beginning in order to achieve a greater power which would help him creating his utopia.
        I don't mind that method. The issue I have with it is that he could have done that with Zamasu in a far more practical and efficient way. The way Goku Black goes about gaining Zenkai's is recklessly and unnecessarily stupid.
        I would like to think that he decided to go that route of attaining zenkai's, not only because he obtained Goku's body, but like his anime counterpart, obtained Goku's thirst for battle. I would also like to think that Zamasu offered to give Goku Black the boost that he needed to reach Rose, but Black denied his offer to so because he desired the thrill of battle as opposed to someone just repeatedly harming and healing him... but that's just I would like it to be. But we in fact never get that explanation and different from the anime, where Goku Black is actually an evil Goku, the manga counterpart is just Zamasu in Goku's body, although he does seem sadistic in the manga as well.

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        Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

        Post by Neon Z » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:29 pm

        ekrolo2 wrote:
        Lord Beerus wrote:I don't mind that method. The issue I have with it is that he could have done that with Zamasu in a far more practical and efficient way. The way Goku Black goes about gaining Zenkai's is recklessly and unnecessarily stupid.
        Indeed, the anime did the right thing by having him get stronger depending on the strength of his adversary, meaning a weakling couldn't just beat him up over and over for him to get monumentally more powerful. What the anime fucked up is that Black is just randomly able to heal and/or is just as randomly impervious to damage. They really should've just said he used the Super DBs for immortality or for some kind of healing factor.
        There's a line from Black in the manga that also indicates that he needed to face powerful people to power up. "Marvelous. You're at the perfect level to raise me even higher."

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        Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

        Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:30 pm

        Neon Z wrote:There's a line from Black in the manga that also indicates that he needed to face powerful people to power up. "Marvelous. You're at the perfect level to raise me even higher."
        Is that meant to imply Black can only get big boosts from strong opponents? Cause if it is, that'd make a lot of sense.
        When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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        Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

        Post by Omniboy » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:39 pm

        Neon Z wrote:
        ekrolo2 wrote:
        Lord Beerus wrote:I don't mind that method. The issue I have with it is that he could have done that with Zamasu in a far more practical and efficient way. The way Goku Black goes about gaining Zenkai's is recklessly and unnecessarily stupid.
        Indeed, the anime did the right thing by having him get stronger depending on the strength of his adversary, meaning a weakling couldn't just beat him up over and over for him to get monumentally more powerful. What the anime fucked up is that Black is just randomly able to heal and/or is just as randomly impervious to damage. They really should've just said he used the Super DBs for immortality or for some kind of healing factor.
        There's a line from Black in the manga that also indicates that he needed to face powerful people to power up. "Marvelous. You're at the perfect level to raise me even higher."
        Never mind, so that's why he chose to fight rather than rely on Zamasu for power-ups. :lol:

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