Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

I just noticed something. Goku reverting back to regular Super Saiyan against Zamasu after using Super Saiyan Blue in the latest chapter of the manga showed us 2 things: 10% SSB Vegeta is stronger than SS2 Vegeta (who is many times stronger than SS3 Goku), and Vegeta can't go Super Saiyan God like Goku.

Goku didn't have his stamina drained after he went from SSB to SS, so the stamina drain comes after using SSB more than once. But the fact that Vegeta used SSB against Hit even though he knew about the stamina drain means that SSB at 10% is still his most powerful form, and the transformations that Vegeta has been seen using are SS, SS2, and SSB. But since we saw from Goku that SSG is stronger than 10% SSB, and Vegeta didn't use it, it means that Vegeta can't use it.

This makes no sense because SSJ Goku was already stronger than Hit, if 10% of SSBlue Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta who is much stronger than SSJ3 Goku who is far above SSJ Goku, this means Hit's timeskip was working on someone dozens of times stronger than him which totally contradicts Whis's statement that it only works on people near or below his level.

[RehBeh]

I just noticed something. Goku reverting back to regular Super Saiyan against Zamasu after using Super Saiyan Blue in the latest chapter of the manga showed us 2 things: 10% SSB Vegeta is stronger than SS2 Vegeta (who is many times stronger than SS3 Goku), and Vegeta can't go Super Saiyan God like Goku.

Goku didn't have his stamina drained after he went from SSB to SS, so the stamina drain comes after using SSB more than once. But the fact that Vegeta used SSB against Hit even though he knew about the stamina drain means that SSB at 10% is still his most powerful form, and the transformations that Vegeta has been seen using are SS, SS2, and SSB. But since we saw from Goku that SSG is stronger than 10% SSB, and Vegeta didn't use it, it means that Vegeta can't use it.

This makes no sense because SSJ Goku was already stronger than Hit, if 10% of SSBlue Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta who is much stronger than SSJ3 Goku who is far above SSJ Goku, this means Hit's timeskip was working on someone dozens of times stronger than him which totally contradicts Whis's statement that it only works on people near or below his level.

Hit wasn't weaker than SSJ Goku. Hit used barely any staminea while Goku drained a lot of his to keep up. Also Hit was holding up when fighting Goku.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I just noticed something. Goku reverting back to regular Super Saiyan against Zamasu after using Super Saiyan Blue in the latest chapter of the manga showed us 2 things: 10% SSB Vegeta is stronger than SS2 Vegeta (who is many times stronger than SS3 Goku), and Vegeta can't go Super Saiyan God like Goku.

Goku didn't have his stamina drained after he went from SSB to SS, so the stamina drain comes after using SSB more than once. But the fact that Vegeta used SSB against Hit even though he knew about the stamina drain means that SSB at 10% is still his most powerful form, and the transformations that Vegeta has been seen using are SS, SS2, and SSB. But since we saw from Goku that SSG is stronger than 10% SSB, and Vegeta didn't use it, it means that Vegeta can't use it.

This makes no sense because SSJ Goku was already stronger than Hit, if 10% of SSBlue Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta who is much stronger than SSJ3 Goku who is far above SSJ Goku, this means Hit's timeskip was working on someone dozens of times stronger than him which totally contradicts Whis's statement that it only works on people near or below his level.

Hit wasn't weaker than SSJ Goku. Hit used barely any staminea while Goku drained a lot of his to keep up. Also Hit was holding up when fighting Goku.

Beerus says SSJ Goku's stronger than Hit. He later powered up beyond his limits, but the power he used against SSJ Goku was his natural level.

[Bullza]

Didn't they say Goku was burning through stamina fast from having to predict dozens of attacks in an instant?

[RehBeh]

This makes no sense because SSJ Goku was already stronger than Hit, if 10% of SSBlue Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta who is much stronger than SSJ3 Goku who is far above SSJ Goku, this means Hit's timeskip was working on someone dozens of times stronger than him which totally contradicts Whis's statement that it only works on people near or below his level.

Hit wasn't weaker than SSJ Goku. Hit used barely any staminea while Goku drained a lot of his to keep up. Also Hit was holding up when fighting Goku.

Beerus says SSJ Goku's stronger than Hit. He later powered up beyond his limits, but the power he used against SSJ Goku was his natural level.

It wasn't his natural power, Hit was holding back, re-read the chapter.

[Simere]

Hit wasn't weaker than SSJ Goku. Hit used barely any staminea while Goku drained a lot of his to keep up. Also Hit was holding up when fighting Goku.

Beerus says SSJ Goku's stronger than Hit. He later powered up beyond his limits, but the power he used against SSJ Goku was his natural level.

It wasn't his natural power, Hit was holding back, re-read the chapter.

I've re-read it over and over again and don't see what you're talking about. Hit's power was slightly lesser than SSJ Goku's, but his advantage in stamina was overwhelming due to Goku needing to expend more energy predicting the Time-Skip than Hit did using it:

Vados: Hit doesn't lose that much energy from his Time Skipping. Goku, on the other hand, seems to be tired out from it. At this rate it will be that Saiyan who will run out of energy first.

Beerus: Goku's power is supposed to be stronger than his! The heck is Time Skipping, anyway? Stop cheating!

[RehBeh]

Beerus says SSJ Goku's stronger than Hit. He later powered up beyond his limits, but the power he used against SSJ Goku was his natural level.

It wasn't his natural power, Hit was holding back, re-read the chapter.

I've re-read it over and over again and don't see what you're talking about. Hit's power was slightly lesser than SSJ Goku's, but his advantage in stamina was overwhelming due to Goku needing to expend more energy predicting the Time-Skip than Hit did using it:

Vados: Hit doesn't lose that much energy from his Time Skipping. Goku, on the other hand, seems to be tired out from it. At this rate it will be that Saiyan who will run out of energy first.

Beerus: Goku's power is supposed to be stronger than his! The heck is Time Skipping, anyway? Stop cheating!

Did you read the part when Champa says "Why that sneaky... He's been hiding his true strength this entire time...!!"
It's pretty obvious Hit was holding back against SSJ Goku. Vados even states that "By simply spamming his "Time Skip" he has been able to defeat almost all of his foes... So there was little to no incentive foe him to use all of his power." So no, SSJ Goku wasn't stronger than Hit. Maybe by a surpressed one, but that's it.

[Simere]

It wasn't his natural power, Hit was holding back, re-read the chapter.

I've re-read it over and over again and don't see what you're talking about. Hit's power was slightly lesser than SSJ Goku's, but his advantage in stamina was overwhelming due to Goku needing to expend more energy predicting the Time-Skip than Hit did using it:

Vados: Hit doesn't lose that much energy from his Time Skipping. Goku, on the other hand, seems to be tired out from it. At this rate it will be that Saiyan who will run out of energy first.

Beerus: Goku's power is supposed to be stronger than his! The heck is Time Skipping, anyway? Stop cheating!

Did you read the part when Champa says "Why that sneaky... He's been hiding his true strength this entire time...!!"

Yes, and that quote was after he powered up. No one thinks SSJ Goku was stronger than that Hit.

It's pretty obvious Hit was holding back against SSJ Goku. Vados even states that "By simply spamming his "Time Skip" he has been able to defeat almost all of his foes... So there was little to no incentive foe him to use all of his power." So no, SSJ Goku wasn't stronger than Hit. Maybe by a surpressed one, but that's it.

Well, it was about "suppressed" Hit, so that's all that matters.

But calling it suppressed is a pretty generous way of putting it. If his full power is something he can barely sustain then it doesn't count for much. He doesn't use it because he doesn't need to use it? He doesn't use it because he can't use it, really. Not if it's an opponent that requires fighting for any extended period of time. Victory has defeated him.

[RehBeh]

I've re-read it over and over again and don't see what you're talking about. Hit's power was slightly lesser than SSJ Goku's, but his advantage in stamina was overwhelming due to Goku needing to expend more energy predicting the Time-Skip than Hit did using it:

Vados: Hit doesn't lose that much energy from his Time Skipping. Goku, on the other hand, seems to be tired out from it. At this rate it will be that Saiyan who will run out of energy first.

Beerus: Goku's power is supposed to be stronger than his! The heck is Time Skipping, anyway? Stop cheating!

Did you read the part when Champa says "Why that sneaky... He's been hiding his true strength this entire time...!!"

Yes, and that quote was after he powered up. No one thinks SSJ Goku was stronger than that Hit.

It's pretty obvious Hit was holding back against SSJ Goku. Vados even states that "By simply spamming his "Time Skip" he has been able to defeat almost all of his foes... So there was little to no incentive foe him to use all of his power." So no, SSJ Goku wasn't stronger than Hit. Maybe by a surpressed one, but that's it.

Well, it was about "suppressed" Hit, so that's all that matters.

But calling it suppressed is a pretty generous way of putting it. If his full power is something he can barely sustain then it doesn't count for much. He doesn't use it because he doesn't need to use it? He doesn't use it because he can't use it, really. Not if it's an opponent that requires fighting for any extended period of time. Victory has defeated him.

Someone above said that when Hit was fighting SSJ Goku was at full power and later improved, which is false. Also Hit states that the reason he can't mainten his full power because last time he used it was long ago.

[Simere]

Someone above said that when Hit was fighting SSJ Goku was at full power and later improved, which is false. Also Hit states that the reason he can't mainten his full power because last time he used it was long ago.

TheUltimateNinja, who I think you're referring to, said SSJ Goku was stronger than Hit's "natural power". That's true. His full power isn't something he can naturally use. It might not be exactly right to say it's "beyond his limits", but for all intents and purposes, it's the same thing.

[Hugo Boss]

The context implies Goku as a Super Saiyan was the ideal foe, Trunks wasn't able to give the knowledge Black was seeking. And yes, Black matched Goku on purpose and he was expecting Goku to be good enough to damage him one way or another. That's what usually happens when the fighters are close in power.

Quite frankly, I don't think we need to be experts in U6 Saiyans' power evolution to see that Cabba being compared to Super Saiyan God doesn't sound reasonable. He just became a Super Saiyan, so the damage he took from Vegeta shouldn't matter. Besides, none said he was weaker than he was supposed to be, so this is a pretty subjective observation to make. The fact that he was able to deliver some blows is what makes me think he is stronger than Frost, that's why I remembered him. I don't know about anyone else between SS Cabba and Frost that I could compare them with.

We barely know what training or experience Cabba has, so who are you to decide whether he shouldn't be as strong or not. Not trying to sound like a condescending prick btw. Also, it has been established that one doesn't need to possess God ki in order to be as powerful as God.

Don't worry, it's fine. I just have the impression that disregarding any comparison between Cabba and Super Saiyan God sounds too absurd sometimes. I mean, really? I personally think it's ridiculous, but okay. And I think Golden Freeza, Hit and Black/Zamasu are exceptions among billions of possibilities. The next time I could see something like that can be in Universal Survival Arc.

It was a big deal since Super Saiyan 2 Goku was stronger than Trunks. If they were exactly the same, then they would be no point for Black to get excited. He fought and stomped someone of that level several times. He also matched Goku so the fight would go on longer, not so he can get hurt since the two times Goku really nailed him happened when he was off-guard. He didn't just like Goku beat on him.

That is just common sense that he would be weaker than he was at the start because Vegeta beat the crap out of him and Cabba nearly lost consciousness. He was about to give up before Vegeta stopped him. And the damaged he took does matter since Gohan nearly fainted the first time he went Super Saiyan, in a control environment. Goku is the only Super Saiyan he saw fight and get empowered after being drained of almost all his energy.

I think Black explains why fighting Goku in person is important to his development. It's even more clear when he returns to the future. It's not about SS2 Goku being stronger than SS2 Trunks, this is not the point. Goku knew from the start that Black was at least on par with his SS3 and Black knew Goku had SSB, but they didn't use much more of their power because Black had a time limit. If they had more time, they would probably fight in a higher level.

I don't know why you think it is common sense to assume Cabba was weaker than he should be. He didn't look all that bad when he calmed down. He even had energy to pull a second Super Saiyan transformation and controlled it just fine. Gohan didn't have such ease. This is completely up to you to demonstrate, if you want to be so adamant about it. I honestly don't mind.

[RehBeh]

Someone above said that when Hit was fighting SSJ Goku was at full power and later improved, which is false. Also Hit states that the reason he can't mainten his full power because last time he used it was long ago.

TheUltimateNinja, who I think you're referring to, said SSJ Goku was stronger than Hit's "natural power". That's true. His full power isn't something he can naturally use. It might not be exactly right to say it's "beyond his limits", but for all intents and purposes, it's the same thing.

He can't naturally used it, then proceeds to use it. What? It's his natural power but at maximum. He can't mainten it for long because he doesn't use it often.

[Simere]

Someone above said that when Hit was fighting SSJ Goku was at full power and later improved, which is false. Also Hit states that the reason he can't mainten his full power because last time he used it was long ago.

TheUltimateNinja, who I think you're referring to, said SSJ Goku was stronger than Hit's "natural power". That's true. His full power isn't something he can naturally use. It might not be exactly right to say it's "beyond his limits", but for all intents and purposes, it's the same thing.

He can't naturally used it, then proceeds to use it. What? It's his natural power but at maximum. He can't mainten it for long because he doesn't use it often.

Being unable to do something naturally doesn't mean it's impossible to do. It means it's hard, or unfamiliar, something you're not used to. Like how being Super Saiyan was strenuous for Goku until he trained for it to be natural.

Hit hasn't trained himself similarly to handle his full power, or if he did he lost the ability.

[HybridSaiyan]

Why does the power scaling concern fans now? Everything's made up just to progress the story, there's no depth in training sessions (like Z ) or proper evidence to prove who's stronger than who now. We seen SSJ Gohan evenly match with SSJ Goku. I'm sure Toei would make Tien evenly matched with SSJ Goku through a sparring match too. The animation doesn't help the power scale either lol.

[RehBeh]

TheUltimateNinja, who I think you're referring to, said SSJ Goku was stronger than Hit's "natural power". That's true. His full power isn't something he can naturally use. It might not be exactly right to say it's "beyond his limits", but for all intents and purposes, it's the same thing.

He can't naturally used it, then proceeds to use it. What? It's his natural power but at maximum. He can't mainten it for long because he doesn't use it often.

Being unable to do something naturally doesn't mean it's impossible to do. It means it's hard, or unfamiliar, something you're not used to. Like how being Super Saiyan was strenuous for Goku until he trained for it to be natural.

Hit hasn't trained himself similarly to handle his full power, or if he did he lost the ability.

It also means doing somethin without special intervention. Hit can access his full power without any effort, the problem is he can't mainten it.(By his statement he possible could, but due to the fact that he didn't use for a long time he probably lost/forgot how to do it). It's not like Goku's Kaio-Ken that boosts his power even more. Hit's power reside inside his body, just like Super Saiyan in every Saiyan. That's what i'm saying.

[RehBeh]

Why does the power scaling concern fans now? Everything's made up just to progress the story, there's no depth in training sessions (like Z ) or proper evidence to prove who's stronger than who now. We seen SSJ Gohan evenly match with SSJ Goku. I'm sure Toei would make Tien evenly matched with SSJ Goku through a sparring match too. The animation doesn't help the power scale either lol.

Probably because of nostalgia. In Dragon Ball power scale was a big thing( especially in Z ).

[HybridSaiyan]

Why does the power scaling concern fans now? Everything's made up just to progress the story, there's no depth in training sessions (like Z ) or proper evidence to prove who's stronger than who now. We seen SSJ Gohan evenly match with SSJ Goku. I'm sure Toei would make Tien evenly matched with SSJ Goku through a sparring match too. The animation doesn't help the power scale either lol.

Probably because of nostalgia. In Dragon Ball power scale was a big thing( especially in Z ).

But fans surely must realize since Super, power scaling has been nothing but pure nonsense.

I'm grateful to Toyotarō for at least tying to make things more clearer in the manga.

Tien, Krillin, 17, 18 and Piccolo were clearly outmatched by the Buu saga, and now they're about to enter a god tournament? Unless these fighters are weak or the heros get completely outmatched, the power scalings are just going to get worse n' worse.

[RehBeh]

Why does the power scaling concern fans now? Everything's made up just to progress the story, there's no depth in training sessions (like Z ) or proper evidence to prove who's stronger than who now. We seen SSJ Gohan evenly match with SSJ Goku. I'm sure Toei would make Tien evenly matched with SSJ Goku through a sparring match too. The animation doesn't help the power scale either lol.

Probably because of nostalgia. In Dragon Ball power scale was a big thing( especially in Z ).

But fans surely must realize since Super, power scaling has been nothing but pure nonsense.

I'm grateful to Toyotarō for at least tying to make things more clearer in the manga.

Tien, Krillin, 17, 18 and Piccolo were clearly outmatched by the Buu saga, and now they're about
to enter a god tournament? Unless these fighters are weak or the heros get completely outmatched, the power scalings are just going to get worse n' worse.

Not all of them.

To make sense out of things, I believe that not everyone will be God tier. Even in U6 Arc i think that only Hit was God tier. Maybe i'm wrong, but when Piccolo can keep up with Frost, who keept up with SSJ Goku either not everyone is at God tier or power-scale is dead.

[HeroR]

I think Black explains why fighting Goku in person is important to his development. It's even more clear when he returns to the future. It's not about SS2 Goku being stronger than SS2 Trunks, this is not the point. Goku knew from the start that Black was at least on par with his SS3 and Black knew Goku had SSB, but they didn't use much more of their power because Black had a time limit. If they had more time, they would probably fight in a higher level.

I don't know why you think it is common sense to assume Cabba was weaker than he should be. He didn't look all that bad when he calmed down. He even had energy to pull a second Super Saiyan transformation and controlled it just fine. Gohan didn't have such ease. This is completely up to you to demonstrate, if you want to be so adamant about it. I honestly don't mind.

Black planned to take his time and fight Goku. Him being sucked back to the past wasn't his plan. Even then, he was still impressed by Goku's power, which makes little sense if Goku was only up to par with Trunks since he wrecked that level several times.

It's not using common sense, that is called bias since you don't want to believe that Cabba was that strong. Him having the energy to transform twice doesn't mean he was at full strength.

[HybridSaiyan]

Probably because of nostalgia. In Dragon Ball power scale was a big thing( especially in Z ).

But fans surely must realize since Super, power scaling has been nothing but pure nonsense.

I'm grateful to Toyotarō for at least tying to make things more clearer in the manga.

Tien, Krillin, 17, 18 and Piccolo were clearly outmatched by the Buu saga, and now they're about
to enter a god tournament? Unless these fighters are weak or the heros get completely outmatched, the power scalings are just going to get worse n' worse.

Not all of them.

To make sense out of things, I believe that not everyone will be God tier. Even in U6 Arc i think that only Hit was God tier. Maybe i'm wrong, but when Piccolo can keep up with Frost, who keept up with SSJ Goku either not everyone is at God tier or power-scale is dead.

See, I think i'm the only one that thinks Piccolo should be above Frost. Never seen the logic in another universe Frieza being so much stronger. : |