"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[The gr]

so is vegeta ssj2 the most op transformation

[Noah]

Damn, so the manga still screwed with power consistency? Guess we're all doomed

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Damn, so the manga still screwed with power consistency?

Why exactly are you saying this?

[Noah]

Why exactly are you saying this?

This:

In this arc: SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Black > Base Black > SSJ3 Goku. Why is Vegeta's SSJ2 so much stronger than Goku's SSJ3?
In the U6 Arc: SSJ Goku => 10% SSBlue Vegeta. This also makes no sense.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why exactly are you saying this?

This:

In this arc: SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Black > Base Black > SSJ3 Goku. Why is Vegeta's SSJ2 so much stronger than Goku's SSJ3?
In the U6 Arc: SSJ Goku => 10% SSBlue Vegeta. This also makes no sense.

SS2 Vegeta is much stronger than not only SS3 Goku, but even SS3 Gotenks & Ultimate Gohan, ever since Battle of Gods. It turns out that his rage boost was permanent to his SS2 form. As we saw in this arc, the SS2 form can become stronger, like Future Trunks brought his SS2 form at SS3 level through training, and Vegeta brought it at an even greater level back in BoG.

As for 10% SSB Vegeta being close to SS Goku, it's not the case at all. 10% SSB Vegeta is still stronger than SS2 Vegeta (if he wasn't, why didn't Vegeta use SS2 instead of SSB?), who is much stronger than SS3 Goku, who is much stronger than SS Goku. Beerus & Whis say that SSG Goku surpassed 10% SSB Vegeta, not SS Goku. Hit implies that 10% SSB is stronger than SS as well, since he told SS Goku to use SSB while he was under the impression that Vegeta fought him at 100%. The Tokitobashi works on opponents stronger than Hit (like SS Goku & 10% SSB Vegeta), but if the opponent is too strong (like SSG Goku), it stops working at full efficiency. Whis never said that Tokitobashi only works against those who are weaker or equals to Hit, he said it works on those weaker or close (aka stronger, but to a certain point) to Hit. However, he never defined how close.

Goku = Vegeta = Trunks < Suppressed Hit < SS Goku = SS Vegeta < SS2 Goku < SS3 Goku = SS2 Trunks < Black < SS Black < SS2 Vegeta < 10% SSB Vegeta < SSG Goku < SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta, with Full Power Hit falling somewhere below SSG Goku. This is unquestionably what the manga has shown us.

[sophitia]

Damn, so the manga still screwed with power consistency? Guess we're all doomed

Nah, only the critical fans doomed lol.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Damn, so the manga still screwed with power consistency? Guess we're all doomed

Nah, only the critical fans doomed lol.

It only matters the ones who are unhealthily obsessed with power levels, anyway. Lucky me, since I don't want them anyway.

[Zephyr]

As for 10% SSB Vegeta being close to SS Goku, it's not the case at all. 10% SSB Vegeta is still stronger than SS2 Vegeta (if he wasn't, why didn't Vegeta use SS2 instead of SSB?), who is much stronger than SS3 Goku, who is much stronger than SS Goku. Beerus & Whis say that SSG Goku surpassed 10% SSB Vegeta, not SS Goku. Hit implies that 10% SSB is stronger than SS as well, since he told SS Goku to use SSB while he was under the impression that Vegeta fought him at 100%. The Tokitobashi works on opponents stronger than Hit (like SS Goku & 10% SSB Vegeta), but if the opponent is too strong (like SSG Goku), it stops working at full efficiency. Whis never said that Tokitobashi only works against those who are weaker or equals to Hit, he said it works on those weaker or close (aka stronger, but to a certain point) to Hit. However, he never defined how close.

Goku = Vegeta = Trunks < Suppressed Hit < SS Goku = SS Vegeta < SS2 Goku < SS3 Goku = SS2 Trunks < Black < SS Black < SS2 Vegeta < 10% SSB Vegeta < SSG Goku < SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta, with Full Power Hit falling somewhere below SSG Goku. This is unquestionably what the manga has shown us.

Regarding the bolded: if it only works on people stronger than but also "close" to him, and 10% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta is "close" to him, then wouldn't Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta also logically be "close" to Super Saiyan Goku? With the power chain like that, Super Saiyan Goku is "closer" to 10% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta than Suppressed Hit is. Which would mean that 10% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta is "close" to Super Saiyan Goku.

But if 10% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta is stronger than something (Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta) that is much stronger than something else (Super Saiyan 3 Goku) that is much stronger still than something else (Super Saiyan Goku), then they can't be "close", otherwise it would make little sense to describe it as "stronger than much stronger than much stronger than". That's as far from "close" as you could possibly get.

Unless Super Saiyan Goku is actually below Suppressed Hit. Or Hit wasn't suppressed against 10% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

As for 10% SSB Vegeta being close to SS Goku, it's not the case at all. 10% SSB Vegeta is still stronger than SS2 Vegeta (if he wasn't, why didn't Vegeta use SS2 instead of SSB?), who is much stronger than SS3 Goku, who is much stronger than SS Goku. Beerus & Whis say that SSG Goku surpassed 10% SSB Vegeta, not SS Goku. Hit implies that 10% SSB is stronger than SS as well, since he told SS Goku to use SSB while he was under the impression that Vegeta fought him at 100%. The Tokitobashi works on opponents stronger than Hit (like SS Goku & 10% SSB Vegeta), but if the opponent is too strong (like SSG Goku), it stops working at full efficiency. Whis never said that Tokitobashi only works against those who are weaker or equals to Hit, he said it works on those weaker or close (aka stronger, but to a certain point) to Hit. However, he never defined how close.

Goku = Vegeta = Trunks < Suppressed Hit < SS Goku = SS Vegeta < SS2 Goku < SS3 Goku = SS2 Trunks < Black < SS Black < SS2 Vegeta < 10% SSB Vegeta < SSG Goku < SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta, with Full Power Hit falling somewhere below SSG Goku. This is unquestionably what the manga has shown us.

Regarding the bolded: if it only works on people stronger than but also "close" to him, and 10% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta is "close" to him, then wouldn't Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta also logically be "close" to Super Saiyan Goku? With the power chain like that, Super Saiyan Goku is "closer" to 10% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta than Suppressed Hit is. Which would mean that 10% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta is "close" to Super Saiyan Goku.

But if 10% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta is stronger than something (Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta) that is much stronger than something else (Super Saiyan 3 Goku) that is much stronger still than something else (Super Saiyan Goku), then they can't be "close", otherwise it would make little sense to describe it as "stronger than much stronger than much stronger than". That's as far from "close" as you could possibly get.

10% SSB Vegeta is "close" enough for the Tokitobashi to work, not "close" in the sense he can give an even fight.

Unless Super Saiyan Goku is actually below Suppressed Hit. Or Hit wasn't suppressed against 10% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

We know for a fact that none of these are true.

[Zephyr]

10% SSB Vegeta is "close" enough for the Tokitobashi to work, not "close" in the sense he can give an even fight.

If it can work even on people "much, much stronger" than him, then doesn't "close" seem like a really poor way to describe the technique's range?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

10% SSB Vegeta is "close" enough for the Tokitobashi to work, not "close" in the sense he can give an even fight.

If it can work even on people "much, much stronger" than him, then doesn't "close" seem like a really poor way to describe the technique's range?

Yes, but it still works. The chain I wrote isn't made up, it's clearly what's shown in the manga. If 10% SSB Vegeta is about as strong as SS Goku, why didn't Vegeta use his SS2 form, which is dozens of times stronger? He had only used SSB once before the fight, so his power wasn't drained yet. And why didn't Goku just use SS2 or SS3 against Hit, if SSG wasn't even needed?

[Zephyr]

doesn't "close" seem like a really poor way to describe the technique's range?

Yes

That's all I was fishing for. I agree with you on the rest.

[Neon Z]

I'm pretty sure you don't need Vegeta SSJ2 > Goku SSJ3 going by the newest chapter.

It's just as you said Vegeta. I had thought that I'd immediately gain all of Son Goku's power the moment I took his body. But... I was wrong. I was left unable to unsatisfactorily transform into a regular Super Saiyan, let alone Blue.

After that, we get Kaioshin saying that Black has been using the recovery ability to power up for a while already. So, it's not like he was talking about the beginning of that battle. He's talking about some time ago.

(Trunks while running away afterwards)

Still... I can't believe Black was hiding that much power.... and he's even got an immortal ally.

It sounds like Black was holding back against Vegeta in the first place. It wasn't just the Zenkai boost that allowed him to turn the battle. He was playing fool and fighting similarly to his initial lower level.

[The gr]

I'm pretty sure you don't need Vegeta SSJ2 > Goku SSJ3 going by the newest chapter.

It's just as you said Vegeta. I had thought that I'd immediately gain all of Son Goku's power the moment I took his body. But... I was wrong. I was left unable to unsatisfactorily transform into a regular Super Saiyan, let alone Blue.

After that, we get Kaioshin saying that Black has been using the recovery ability to power up for a while already. So, it's not like he was talking about the beginning of that battle. He's talking about some time ago.

(Trunks while running away afterwards)

Still... I can't believe Black was hiding that much power.... and he's even got an immortal ally.

It sounds like Black was holding back against Vegeta in the first place. It wasn't just the Zenkai boost that allowed him to turn the battle. He was playing fool and fighting similarly to his initial lower level.

wow I can't believe goku black troll Vegeta so I guess chapter 19 powerscaling wasn't inconsistent

[Sora Saiyan]

I'm pretty sure you don't need Vegeta SSJ2 > Goku SSJ3 going by the newest chapter.

It's just as you said Vegeta. I had thought that I'd immediately gain all of Son Goku's power the moment I took his body. But... I was wrong. I was left unable to unsatisfactorily transform into a regular Super Saiyan, let alone Blue.

After that, we get Kaioshin saying that Black has been using the recovery ability to power up for a while already. So, it's not like he was talking about the beginning of that battle. He's talking about some time ago.

(Trunks while running away afterwards)

Still... I can't believe Black was hiding that much power.... and he's even got an immortal ally.

It sounds like Black was holding back against Vegeta in the first place. It wasn't just the Zenkai boost that allowed him to turn the battle. He was playing fool and fighting similarly to his initial lower level.

Vegeta was confirmed to be stronger than SSJ3 the second Trunks said "Blacks stronger than when he fought me", even though he was getting trounced by Vegeta, also just after that we get Vegeta saying "Trunks at his current level would be no match for you". Clearly Vegeta knows that his own SSJ2 is well above anything Trunks is capable of since he's confident in being able to beat Black as just a SSJ2 at that point.

Now I don't know if I believe Black was holding back since he was moments away from death, the whole "Thanks, you saved me back there" and "You took your time" to Zamasu all imply it was quite lucky. Not to mention the fact that Zamasu was surprised that Goku, Vegeta and Trunks were there imply that Black wouldn't have been going for a near death since it was all luck that Zamasu even showed up, and Black would know that Zamasu wasn't around since he was out investigating the other timelines and he wouldn't be able to feel Zamasus presence. There's no way he would risk a power up at that time.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm pretty sure you don't need Vegeta SSJ2 > Goku SSJ3 going by the newest chapter.

It's just as you said Vegeta. I had thought that I'd immediately gain all of Son Goku's power the moment I took his body. But... I was wrong. I was left unable to unsatisfactorily transform into a regular Super Saiyan, let alone Blue.

After that, we get Kaioshin saying that Black has been using the recovery ability to power up for a while already. So, it's not like he was talking about the beginning of that battle. He's talking about some time ago.

(Trunks while running away afterwards)

Still... I can't believe Black was hiding that much power.... and he's even got an immortal ally.

It sounds like Black was holding back against Vegeta in the first place. It wasn't just the Zenkai boost that allowed him to turn the battle. He was playing fool and fighting similarly to his initial lower level.

Vegeta states that he is stronger than SS2 Trunks at full power in his SS2 form, and SS2 Trunks is as strong as SS3 Goku.

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta states that he is stronger than SS2 Trunks at full power in his SS2 form, and SS2 Trunks is as strong as SS3 Goku.

He does? Then there's no doubt about it, Rageta became a permanent boost for him in SS2.

[SansrivaaL]

So its like
SSJB Goku and Vegeta>>SSJG Goku>>SSJ2 Vegeta>SSJ3 Goku=SSJ2 Trunks? well this is just turned out into a heck of a thing.

[Doctor.]

Vegeta states that he is stronger than SS2 Trunks at full power in his SS2 form, and SS2 Trunks is as strong as SS3 Goku.

He does? Then there's no doubt about it, Rageta became a permanent boost for him in SS2.

If that's the case, I'm not sure I like that approach. It just complicates things when before it was pretty simple when each transformation had a set multiplier. You knew if two characters were even in base form, then their SSJ forms would all be even too. Now you can't be sure about that.

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta states that he is stronger than SS2 Trunks at full power in his SS2 form, and SS2 Trunks is as strong as SS3 Goku.

He does? Then there's no doubt about it, Rageta became a permanent boost for him in SS2.

If that's the case, I'm not sure I like that approach. It just complicates things when before it was pretty simple when each transformation had a set multiplier. You knew if two characters were even in base form, then their SSJ forms would all be even too. Now you can't be sure about that.

Agreed. Giving Vegeta SSGod would've been a much simpler way of giving him a form above the golden line but beneath Blue for him to fight opponents of that level. It also makes 3 even more pointless if 2 can get amped to Vegetto tier.