Daizenshuu Question, Possibly Tough One

[SS2 Vegeto]

I know we have atleast a few casual Japanese readers on here, and more who can translate with some effort, but it's bugged me enough to ask: despite the fact that I agree with this, and I've made this apparant here before, I hear every so often the claim that "the daizenshuu states Gohan to be the strongest unfused fighter by the end of the series". First of all, if this is correct, it makes things easier, and if it's not, then people may as well know it. Of what I've actually had translated, we have...Volume 41 - Mightiest Warrior (in refference to Gohan). But it's a title, not an argument I would choose to use over others. Is there a mention of this anywhere else in the daizenshuu volumes? If not him, Gotenks? That would serve the same purpose, basically...

I would appreciate help whenever it can be given, thanks in advance.

[VegettoEX]

http://www.daizex.com/misc_stuff/gohan_history_04.jpg

Knock yourselves out.

[SS2 Vegeto]

Ah...thanks for that, I've had it translated however. Thus the "Mightiest Warrior" line. I don't own the daizenshuu in any form, so I wouldn't (and still, really don't) know if it would have been anywhere else in any one of the volumes.

[VegettoEX]

I'm glad I had the scan sitting around already and didn't put any effort into it, then .

[Olivier Hague]

Of what I've actually had translated, we have...Volume 41 - Mightiest Warrior (in refference to Gohan). But it's a title, not an argument I would choose to use over others. Is there a mention of this anywhere else in the daizenshuu volumes? If not him, Gotenks?

The scanned page also states that Gohan's power even surpasses Gotenks', if that's what you wanted to know ("Super Saiyajin ni narazu tomo, Gotenks sae shinogu chikara o motteiru").

[SS2 Vegeto]

Well, anyone who would argue that a Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku posesses power that would trump Gohan's post Rou Kaioshin's powerup, doesn't believe Gotenks in any state is stronger than him anyways, so what I'm kind of trying to pry at is if there is any mention of either Gohan or Gotenks' strength exceeding Goku's, or a the inclusion of this "strongest unfused fighter" bit.

[Godo]

Going non-Daizenshuu and manga-wise, it's pretty obvious that SSJ3 Gotenks and Chou Gohan are stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

Goku fought the original Buu (fat) and found out that there was a slight possibility that he could win the fight, but if you look at the fight it was pretty even, Fat Buu was just surprised over Goku's power as a SSJ3.

When leaving Super Buu (the fusion of the two halfs of the original Buu [fat]) together with Vegeta Goku noted that they didn't stand a chance against Super Buu, who according to Piccolo was stronger than the original Buu.
Still Gotenks managed to beat Super Buu into pulp.

Then Gohan with his chou powerup arrives. He really beats Super Buu up, with Super Buu not having a chance to defend himself. This fight is in this case unlike with the Super Buu vs. SSJ3 Gotenks fight, where Super buu managed to play around a little bit with Gotenks and actually blast him too.

All this makes me believe that Chou Gohan was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks that was stronger than SSJ3 Goku, making Gohan the strongest unfused character in Dragonball Z.

Then, Daizenshuu-wise, I have no clue about what it says about this.

[Metrite]

I hear every so often the claim that "the daizenshuu states Gohan to be the strongest unfused fighter by the end of the series".

The whole "unfused" thing is just another term fans created. Since there's no denying Gohan is nothing compared to Vegitto regardless of what side of the Buu debates they were on, the Gohan fanboys wanted a strongest-something-title to worship him with, thus to exclude Vegitto, the "strongest unfused character". But they didn't think it over too well, technically Vegitto would still the the strongest "unfused character" since "fused" should be for characters made by fusion(the technique) and joining with potaras wasn't refered to as such. And since at least two of Buu's forms were stronger than him, the correct title should be "the strongest unfused, un-potara-ed, un-absorbed-others-ed character".

[SS2 Vegeto]

Going non-Daizenshuu and manga-wise, it's pretty obvious that SSJ3 Gotenks and Chou Gohan are stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

Goku fought the original Buu (fat) and found out that there was a slight possibility that he could win the fight, but if you look at the fight it was pretty even, Fat Buu was just surprised over Goku's power as a SSJ3.

When leaving Super Buu (the fusion of the two halfs of the original Buu [fat]) together with Vegeta Goku noted that they didn't stand a chance against Super Buu, who according to Piccolo was stronger than the original Buu.
Still Gotenks managed to beat Super Buu into pulp.

Then Gohan with his chou powerup arrives. He really beats Super Buu up, with Super Buu not having a chance to defend himself. This fight is in this case unlike with the Super Buu vs. SSJ3 Gotenks fight, where Super buu managed to play around a little bit with Gotenks and actually blast him too.

All this makes me believe that Chou Gohan was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks that was stronger than SSJ3 Goku, making Gohan the strongest unfused character in Dragonball Z.

Then, Daizenshuu-wise, I have no clue about what it says about this.

I know this, but...well, you could search back a bit for that "Stronger or weaker after absorbing South Kaioshin?" thread in this same section, page three, and realize why I'd want something like this. I don't have any trouble arguing my case, I'm fairly confident that no one would think otherwise by reviewing my debate, but it's nice to know whether something like this exists or not. As of now, it's unconfirmed, although being titled the "mightiest warrior" at the time of his appearance probably counts for something, title or no. Man, the daizenshuu really needs a scanslation badly.

[Dayspring]

I agree with Godo here. Rou Kaioshin's power up releases all the potential strength one would ever hope to be capable of acquiring (through training, fighting, transforming, etc). Once Gohan undergoes this power up, he becomes visibly stronger than Majin Buu who was in turn stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

I see no reason for the SSJ3 Goku argument, as Chibi Buu was the weakest form of Buu (excluding Mr. Buu) and SSJ3 Goku wasn't stronger than Chibi Buu. If SSJ3 Goku can't defeat Chibi, then he'd be no match for the form of Buu that Gohan was able to mop the floor with.

Ergo, Gohan is easily the strongest normal being in the Cosmos.

[SaiyaMel]

I've seen some still arguing that Goku is the strongest in the end.. i think they're just fanboys in denial...

ClouKyo should see this.

[Duo]

I've seen some still arguing that Goku is the strongest in the end.. i think they're just fanboys in denial...

ClouKyo should see this.

That's a breed which will never die. And frankly, that's probably how the majority of "fans" see it anyway.

[Tyro]

SSJ3 Goku wasn't stronger than Chibi Buu. If SSJ3 Goku can't defeat Chibi, then he'd be no match for the form of Buu that Gohan was able to mop the floor with.

I disagree with you here. The battle Goku had with Chibi Boo before the strain and ki drain of the SSj3 state really started to kick in (or after he used his Kamehameha) seemed pretty even to me. In fact, I kind of see Goku having a slight edge during the battle. Later it was even stated that if Goku can reach full power he would be able to obliterate Chibi Boo for good.

[Ex-Dubbie369]

I'm not trying to doubt it, but is there any place that states that "Super Buu" is stronger than Chibi Buu?

[Tyro]

Not directly.

[Xyex]

I'm not trying to doubt it, but is there any place that states that "Super Buu" is stronger than Chibi Buu?

Goku's reactions show this. He says he can beat Kid Buu. He says Super Buu would beat both him AND Vegeta if they tried fighting him without fusion.

[Duo]

I'm not trying to doubt it, but is there any place that states that "Super Buu" is stronger than Chibi Buu?

Goku says that him and Vegeta fighting "Super" Boo would be like suicide, whereas he was confident against Chibi Boo. That says it well enough, as far as I'm concerned.

[Ex-Dubbie369]

Goku seems to be comparing his and Vegeta's strength to that of the Gohan-absorbed version of Super Buu, meaning that any comparison of Goku vs. Super Buu is reduced to speculation. The only time it seems like Goku is stronger than Gohan would be in Movie 13, in which Goku's move seemed to win the battle. Of course, we could just go the route saying "It's a movie."

[Tyro]

Goku seems to be comparing his and Vegeta's strength to that of the Gohan-absorbed version of Super Buu, meaning that any comparison of Goku vs. Super Buu is reduced to speculation.

*Goku and Vegeta rip everyone except Mr. Boo out of Shin Boo (Ultimate Gohan prime)'s being. He reverts back to his normal, pre-absorbing anyone self.*

Goku: "Yeah! He's a lot weaker! See, his ki is smaller!"

Vegeta: "Then let's blow ourselves out of here!"

Goku: "Wait! He's still stronger than either of us! He'll kill us if we go out like this!!"

[Dayspring]

SSJ3 Goku wasn't stronger than Chibi Buu. If SSJ3 Goku can't defeat Chibi, then he'd be no match for the form of Buu that Gohan was able to mop the floor with.

I disagree with you here. The battle Goku had with Chibi Boo before the strain and ki drain of the SSj3 state really started to kick in (or after he used his Kamehameha) seemed pretty even to me. In fact, I kind of see Goku having a slight edge during the battle. Later it was even stated that if Goku can reach full power he would be able to obliterate Chibi Boo for good.

But that's just it, the very nature of SSJ3 seems to be simply using all one's energy and strength reserves. As a result, we find out going full power SSJ3 results in a shutting down of the super saiyan stages when alive. Why? Because all the energy got used up (or at least as closed to without killing the user). The daizenshuu confirms this as well.

Note that it becomes an "if he could have attained max power" debate. Regardless of whether he could or not, he doesn't have that confidence against the other forms of Buu, proving SSJ3 Goku is weaker than Gohan.

They're just two different kinds of transformations. Gohan's lets him tap into decades of as-of-yet-unobtained combat and training and trasformation achieved energies in a non-SSJ state, whereas SSJ3 simply lets Goku call upon all the energy he already has within him. It's like running as fast as you can: humans can only excert 100% muscle output for 6 seconds, I think, before the body slows it down as a safety precaution. That's what SSJ3 is. Gohan's increase is decades of marathon training and applying that experience. Who's the better runner now?



Oh, and not to be a dick, but "Ultimate Gohan Prime?" We seriously need to stop trying to coming up with fan terminologies... ^_^;;