Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

I think you are half-right. The point was to compare himself against Black, not teasing Trunks with new level-ups. To get straight to his objective, if Goku really is stronger than Trunks as a SS2, he would just need to fight back and use the level he fought Black. That would be enough.

It doesn't matter if the situations are similar. One confirmation doesn't extrapolate from its context. The minimum we expect is that they provide the necessary detail to confirm a fact, which in this case they didn't. Otherwise, if not speculating, we are just spreading misinformation.

Goku told Trunks that he was going to show him a level beyond Super Saiyan 3. So he was showing Trunks he new power-up. And didn't just power-up Super Saiyan 3 because he was both showing a new form and seeing how that compared to Black.

Like I said, a show shouldn't have to spoon-fed its fans every little bit of information if you have two comparisons that can be made. If Frost lost power because he got his ass beat, then it's logically to conclude that Cabba got weaker from getting his ass beat too. What sense would it make for Cabba to remain at full power after getting his ass handed to him? Not to mention, this situation has happened before throughout Dragon Ball where people get hurt and can't access their full power.

You may want to complain there is no consistence in this case, but things are the way they are presented. Just because something can be explained with theories or with logic, I'm not obliged to accept them as facts. I see you like to apply analogy to similar contexts and that's a interesting thing, but I like to avoid assumptions and substantiate my claims.

[Bullza]

So despite kid Goku supposedly having a power level of 10 and can lift a car that is easily two tons, Goku who is stronger than Namek Saga Goku who had a base power three million can't lift twenty tons. And you don't see the problem here?

It'd just mean that physical strenght doesn't correlate with power level. A better example would be that Goku near the start of Dragon Ball trained with a 40kg shell. By the end of Dragon Ball he trained with 113kg of weighted clothes.

By the Buu saga he trained with 8 tons of weight and was incapable of lifting 20 tons by Super.

[HeroR]

So despite kid Goku supposedly having a power level of 10 and can lift a car that is easily two tons, Goku who is stronger than Namek Saga Goku who had a base power three million can't lift twenty tons. And you don't see the problem here?

It'd just mean that physical strenght doesn't correlate with power level. A better example would be that Goku near the start of Dragon Ball trained with a 40kg shell. By the end of Dragon Ball he trained with 113kg of weighted clothes.

By the Buu saga he trained with 8 tons of weight and was incapable of lifting 20 tons by Super.

Why wouldn't physical strength correlate with power level? Speed does, as Vegeta mocks Cui about.

You may want to complain there is no consistence in this case, but things are the way they are presented. Just because something can be explained with theories or with logic, I'm not obliged to accept them as facts. I see you like to apply analogy to similar contexts and that's a interesting thing, but I like to avoid assumptions and substantiate my claims.

This isn't about consistence. This is about fans claiming that since something wasn't directly stated it's speculation, despite the show showing several times that people get weaker after getting beating, including Frost who was only one fight after Cabba. Not everything needs to be spoon-fed.

[Bullza]

It doesn't have to be a linear increase though. As far as numbers go he went from 88 pound to 8+ tons. He got much stronger over the course of the series.

You'd think Super Saiyan God would be able to lift 1,000 tons no problem though.

[HeroR]

It doesn't have to be a linear increase though. As far as numbers go he went from 88 pound to 8+ tons. He got much stronger over the course of the series.

You'd think Super Saiyan God would be able to lift 1,000 tons no problem though.

This isn't about linear. If weak kid Goku can lift a car with little effort, than adult Goku who can easily nuke a planet and move so fast that the gods can't keep up with him should be able to lift 40 tons by the Buu Saga.

[Bullza]

Based on what? He couldn't lift 40 tons, he said he couldn't even move with that much weight so there is no should. His Ki having great destructive power and him being incredibly fast doesn't account for his physical strenght.

If he could lift a car at the start of the series and then in the Buu saga he can't lift 40 tons then it shows how little his actual physical strength grew.

[HeroR]

Based on what? He couldn't lift 40 tons, he said he couldn't even move with that much weight so there is no should. His Ki having great destructive power and him being incredibly fast doesn't account for his physical strenght.

If he could lift a car at the start of the series and then in the Buu saga he can't lift 40 tons then it shows how little his actual physical strength grew.

If Goku's speed and general speed increase as his 'power level' goes up, the same goes with his lifting strength. Having his lifting strength being dramatically lowered than all his other stats makes little sense.

No, it call a low end feat. Like Silver Surface being able to take a star blowing up in his face with damage and then him being knocked out by street thugs.

[Hugo Boss]

You may want to complain there is no consistence in this case, but things are the way they are presented. Just because something can be explained with theories or with logic, I'm not obliged to accept them as facts. I see you like to apply analogy to similar contexts and that's a interesting thing, but I like to avoid assumptions and substantiate my claims.

This isn't about consistence. This is about fans claiming that since something wasn't directly stated it's speculation, despite the show showing several times that people get weaker after getting beating, including Frost who was only one fight after Cabba. Not everything needs to be spoon-fed.

Obviously, if it's not confirmed, it's only speculation. I don't need to be a expert to know that. I don't know how it can be more clear than that, somebody help me.

[HeroR]

Obviously, if it's not confirmed, it's only speculation. I don't need to be a expert to know that. I don't know how it can be more clear than that, somebody help me.

I don't understand how Cabba being hurt and weakened is speculation since we saw Vegeta nearly beat him into unconsciousness.

[Simere]

Know how strong you'd have to be to slow the momentum of an island hurled at you? A hell of a lot stronger than lifting 40 tons. Unless you want to argue things in the Dragon World don't weigh what they should, best to just accept that writers almost never give proper perspective to what things weigh. It's hardly worth debating. Casually lift a tractor or send a bus flying one episode, then make a big deal about a thousand pounds being heavy the next.

[Bullza]

If Goku's speed and general speed increase as his 'power level' goes up, the same goes with his lifting strength.

As it has if he's gone from training with a 20kg shell to 8 tons worth of weight. That's from 44 pound to 17,637 pound. So he's got probably at least 400 times physically stronger as the series progressed.

[Nejishiki]

That's just a visual thing. Toriyama specifically wrote that he couldn't lift 40 tons. If he appeared to push a large boulder as a child then it just means that it wasn't 40 tons. Yeah a similar rock in our real life world would weigh that much but apparently not in Dragon Ball.

Goku couldn't lift 40 tons. As a Super Saiyan and being 50 times stronger he seemingly could not lift 1,000 tons.

In the anime he seemingly lifted a lot more than that. It's still only a visual thing but nothing contradicts it yet plus in the manga he never lifted anything that heavy.

The entire picture is blurred in your examples. Goku's specific struggle with lifting 40 tons is doing so while flying, which is tremendously exhausting. Goku pushed a boulder & Vegeta attempted to lift Magetta while grounded. Presumably, Goku would have an easier time training with Kaio's weights if he were grounded.

[HeroR]

If Goku's speed and general speed increase as his 'power level' goes up, the same goes with his lifting strength.

As it has if he's gone from training with a 20kg shell to 8 tons worth of weight. That's from 44 pound to 17,637 pound. So he's got probably at least 400 times physically stronger as the series progressed.

As Simere pointed out, this is just a case of Toriyama not understanding how much something weights. Fiction writers do it all the time and there is even a TV trope about it. Point is, Super Saiyan Vegeta not being able to lift 1000 tons in the manga is an extreme low end feat and is case of the author thinking 1000 tons would be a lot for these characters without thinking about how all the past stuff they lifted in the past and how much that would weight. That, or he just looked at the 40 tons panel and just assumed 1000 tons would be the limit of a Super Saiyan.

[Bullza]

Well he doesn't really have to know, he specifically wrote that Goku could not move with 40 tons of weights on him. So if anything the visual feats would be inconsistent first not what he wrote.

All it means is that the boulder is not as heavy as it would appear to be. People always go back to the boulder feat but aside from that they didn't really lift that much to really refute Super Saiyan being unable to lift 1,000 tons.

Plus it's an old visual feats against new written dialogue.

[HeroR]

Well he doesn't really have to know, he specifically wrote that Goku could not move with 40 tons of weights on him. So if anything the visual feats would be inconsistent first not what he wrote.

All it means is that the boulder is not as heavy as it would appear to be. People always go back to the boulder feat but aside from that they didn't really lift that much to really refute Super Saiyan being unable to lift 1,000 tons.

Plus it's an old visual feats against new written dialogue.

No, because those physical feats pre-date the 40 ton feat and it's obvious That Toriyama doesn't understand scale like most fiction writers. And it isn't just the rock, Goku lifted a car that we know is at least 2 tons, unless you're going to argue that cars are lighter in Dragon Ball. And we have stuff like Jaco being able to easily lift his own spaceship, and he's a weakling compared to the Z-Fighters.

[TheMikado]

Well he doesn't really have to know, he specifically wrote that Goku could not move with 40 tons of weights on him. So if anything the visual feats would be inconsistent first not what he wrote.

All it means is that the boulder is not as heavy as it would appear to be. People always go back to the boulder feat but aside from that they didn't really lift that much to really refute Super Saiyan being unable to lift 1,000 tons.

Plus it's an old visual feats against new written dialogue.

No, because those physical feats pre-date the 40 ton feat and it's obvious That Toriyama doesn't understand scale like most fiction writers. And it isn't just the rock, Goku lifted a car that we know is at least 2 tons, unless you're going to argue that cars are lighter in Dragon Ball. And we have stuff like Jaco being able to easily lift his own spaceship, and he's a weakling compared to the Z-Fighters.

Well considering they have capsules I wouldn't be surprised if they were relatively light.

[buutenks]

Eh, Bulma's car is small. Its around 2 meters long. Its a small jeep. My 4 meter long car weighs 1 ton.

[Bullza]

[No, because those physical feats pre-date the 40 ton feat and it's obvious That Toriyama doesn't understand scale like most fiction writers. And it isn't just the rock, Goku lifted a car that we know is at least 2 tons, unless you're going to argue that cars are lighter in Dragon Ball. And we have stuff like Jaco being able to easily lift his own spaceship, and he's a weakling compared to the Z-Fighters.

Again you're talking about visual feats. All that matters is that as far as Toriyama is concerned he is incapable of moving 40 tons in Base form. As far as Toyotaro and maybe Toriyama is concerned Super Saiyan Vegeta can not lift 1,000 tons.

It doesn't matter in the slightest what he appeared to lift. The limit of his strenght was stated in the manga. Any misunderstanding with the scale would be in what was drawn instead of what was said.

Jaco lifted the space ship and he's weaker than Goku therefore the spaceship would have weighed significantly less than 40 tons.

[buutenks]

This is a manga thing only tho.

[pacz360]

[No, because those physical feats pre-date the 40 ton feat and it's obvious That Toriyama doesn't understand scale like most fiction writers. And it isn't just the rock, Goku lifted a car that we know is at least 2 tons, unless you're going to argue that cars are lighter in Dragon Ball. And we have stuff like Jaco being able to easily lift his own spaceship, and he's a weakling compared to the Z-Fighters.

Again you're talking about visual feats. All that matters is that as far as Toriyama is concerned he is incapable of moving 40 tons in Base form. As far as Toyotaro and maybe Toriyama is concerned Super Saiyan Vegeta can not lift 1,000 tons.

It doesn't matter in the slightest what he appeared to lift. The limit of his strenght was stated in the manga. Any misunderstanding with the scale would be in what was drawn instead of what was said.

Jaco lifted the space ship and he's weaker than Goku therefore the spaceship would have weighed significantly less than 40 tons.

Dude it was manga only with magetta and vegeta feat plus goku was lifting shit that was far heavier in the earlier stages in super on a planet 10x earth gravity and later wore a suit that was so heavy it sunk through the ground and kept going. also why the fuck do you care so much by how much a character can lift? This is a series where you have goku fucking up a being like freeza who survived a planetary explosion on deaths knocking door with his fist alone so again why do you care about how much a character can lift?