"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[zamasu121]

If rageta is actually a form, then how come he did not use it against hit?

[ekrolo2]

If rageta is actually a form, then how come he did not use it against hit?

Blue drops all his stats to less than a tenth of what they are, meaning that Rageta would've been useless since it would've been multiplying a considerably weaker Base form. Think of it like this:

Fresh Vegeta:
100 (Base)
3,000,000 (Rageta)
20,000,000 (Blue)

Exhausted Vegeta:
5 (Base)
150,000 (Rageta)
1,000,000 (Blue)

[zamasu121]

If rageta is actually a form, then how come he did not use it against hit?

Blue drops all his stats to less than a tenth of what they are, meaning that Rageta would've been useless since it would've been multiplying a considerably weaker Base form. Think of it like this:

Fresh Vegeta:
100 (Base)
3,000,000 (Rageta)
20,000,000 (Blue)

Exhausted Vegeta:
5 (Base)
150,000 (Rageta)
1,000,000 (Blue)

Huh, i was sure it only dropped his power if he transformed to ssb twice. I might have to read that chapter again.

[LightBing]

Vegeta states that he is stronger than SS2 Trunks at full power in his SS2 form, and SS2 Trunks is as strong as SS3 Goku.

He does? Then there's no doubt about it, Rageta became a permanent boost for him in SS2.

If that's the case, I'm not sure I like that approach. It just complicates things when before it was pretty simple when each transformation had a set multiplier. You knew if two characters were even in base form, then their SSJ forms would all be even too. Now you can't be sure about that.

That's just something made up by the guides. In the manga there's nothing indicating that. The characters say that their base influences SSJ but don't go beyond that. For example, Goku says that Gohan probably can't defeat Majin Boo after training with the Z-Sword, if it was a set multiplier there wouldn't be any uncertainty in his statement.
The most pointing indicator is the mastery of SSJ, which throws the set multiplier idea right out the window. Otherwise Goku and Gohan are idiots for using SSJ at the Cell Games instead of Grade II. Since the speed loss and energy consumption increase would negligible compared to the power gain.

[Doctor.]

Goku says that Gohan probably can't defeat Majin Boo after training with the Z-Sword, if it was a set multiplier there wouldn't be any uncertainty in his statement.
The most pointing indicator is the mastery of SSJ, which throws the set multiplier idea right out the window. Otherwise Goku and Gohan are idiots for using SSJ at the Cell Games instead of Grade II. Since the speed loss and energy consumption increase would negligible compared to the power gain.

I don't see how that proves anything, Gohan's base got stronger, so did his Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 forms.

Pretty sure Toriyama himself even said he envisioned the Super Saiyan form as a multiplier (50x to start, then 10x as the series went on). It wasn't an arbitrary value, and the fact that characters are always even in the same forms proves this.

[ekrolo2]

Goku says that Gohan probably can't defeat Majin Boo after training with the Z-Sword, if it was a set multiplier there wouldn't be any uncertainty in his statement.
The most pointing indicator is the mastery of SSJ, which throws the set multiplier idea right out the window. Otherwise Goku and Gohan are idiots for using SSJ at the Cell Games instead of Grade II. Since the speed loss and energy consumption increase would negligible compared to the power gain.

I don't see how that proves anything, Gohan's base got stronger, so did his Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 forms.

Pretty sure Toriyama himself even said he envisioned the Super Saiyan form as a multiplier (50x to start, then 10x as the series went on). It wasn't an arbitrary value, and the fact that characters are always even in the same forms proves this.

He always envisioned it as 10 because he thought 50 would be hard to imagine but you're right, there is a basis for multipliers existing even later on even if they're never specified outside of supplementary material. I believe there's even mention of SSGod depending on the users starting (Base) power which seems to imply a multiplier of some sort there too.

[HeroR]

Goku says that Gohan probably can't defeat Majin Boo after training with the Z-Sword, if it was a set multiplier there wouldn't be any uncertainty in his statement.
The most pointing indicator is the mastery of SSJ, which throws the set multiplier idea right out the window. Otherwise Goku and Gohan are idiots for using SSJ at the Cell Games instead of Grade II. Since the speed loss and energy consumption increase would negligible compared to the power gain.

I don't see how that proves anything, Gohan's base got stronger, so did his Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 forms.

Pretty sure Toriyama himself even said he envisioned the Super Saiyan form as a multiplier (50x to start, then 10x as the series went on). It wasn't an arbitrary value, and the fact that characters are always even in the same forms proves this.

Toriyama only said he saw Super Saiyan as a 10x increase, but that a Kaioken x20 couldn't beat 50% Freeza.

[LightBing]

Goku says that Gohan probably can't defeat Majin Boo after training with the Z-Sword, if it was a set multiplier there wouldn't be any uncertainty in his statement.
The most pointing indicator is the mastery of SSJ, which throws the set multiplier idea right out the window. Otherwise Goku and Gohan are idiots for using SSJ at the Cell Games instead of Grade II. Since the speed loss and energy consumption increase would negligible compared to the power gain.

I don't see how that proves anything, Gohan's base got stronger, so did his Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 forms.

Pretty sure Toriyama himself even said he envisioned the Super Saiyan form as a multiplier (50x to start, then 10x as the series went on). It wasn't an arbitrary value, and the fact that characters are always even in the same forms proves this.

If it's a set multiplier then Goku wouldn't have said "I wonder". He fought Majin Boo and Gohan was right there in-front of him. So he should have know if Gohan had any chance against Boo.

I know the quote your referring. Although you're miss-remembering it. He said he thought the x50 "people" envisioned was too much and that he thought it was x10. I'm not disputing that it's a multiplier, I'm disputing the idea of set multipliers.
Mr.Toriyama's quote is in-reference to the first SSJ transformation, it isn't a rule he told us about.

Can we actually prove how strong the characters are in base, post-Namek? We know about the SSJ forms but not base.

[Doctor.]

If it's a set multiplier then Goku wouldn't have said "I wonder". He fought Majin Boo and Gohan was right there in-front of him. So he should have know if Gohan had any chance against Boo.

I know the quote your referring. Although you're miss-remembering it. He said he thought the x50 "people" envisioned was too much and that he thought it was x10. I'm not disputing that it's a multiplier, I'm disputing the idea of set multipliers.
Mr.Toriyama's quote is in-reference to the first SSJ transformation, it isn't a rule he told us about.

Can we actually prove that the characters are even in base, post-Namek? We know about the SSJ forms but not base.

Why couldn't he say "I wonder"? Gohan had gotten stronger and he didn't know the fullest extent of Majin Boo's power. For all we know, Gohan's base got so strong that, at Super Saiyan 2, he'd be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Of course there's no way to prove this, but what you're saying isn't really an argument either.

I didn't contest the idea that the transformations in the manga could be improved through training. I specifically said I didn't like it, not that it wasn't true, because it overcomplicated things.

As an example, let's suppose it's true that the multipliers are set, we know that Majin Vegeta and Goku were equal at Super Saiyan 2, so this would tell us they're even in Super Saiyan and base as well. Without a set multiplier to guide us, we wouldn't know how strong they were in those forms, nor how do they compare to Kaioshin, Piccolo, Gohan and such. Again, it's an unnecessarily complicated system. With set multipliers, you can easily insert characters into "tiers".

[LightBing]

Why couldn't he say "I wonder"? Gohan had gotten stronger and he didn't know the fullest extent of Majin Boo's power. For all we know, Gohan's base got so strong that, at Super Saiyan 2, he'd be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Of course there's no way to prove this, but what you're saying isn't really an argument either.

I didn't contest the idea that the transformations in the manga could be improved through training. I specifically said I didn't like it, not that it wasn't true, because it overcomplicated things.

As an example, let's suppose it's true that the multipliers are set, we know that Majin Vegeta and Goku were equal at Super Saiyan 2, so this would tell us they're even in Super Saiyan and base as well. Without a set multiplier to guide us, we wouldn't know how strong they were in those forms, nor how do they compare to Kaioshin, Piccolo, Gohan and such. Again, it's an unnecessarily complicated system. With set multipliers, you can easily insert characters into "tiers".

He did know about Majin Boo's power. Not only did he fought him but he also delegated his extermination to Goten and Trunks. So what he wonders about is how strong Gohan actually got, if he needs to wonder about that then set multipliers aren't a thing. Otherwise he would have said if Gohan had a shot or not.

I don't think the system is complicated. It's actually simple and straightforward, if the story wants to tell us the power of a character it does.

Let me take your Majin Vegeta vs Goku example.
We know they are even because Goku said so and we know they weren't before because of what Vegeta did. How they compare in other forms is not relevant and therefore it doesn't matter. This way Mr.Toriyama doesn't have to worry about applying rules and numbers crap. Which was part of the reason why he abandoned the power level system.
He can make the characters as strong as the plot needs them to be. He can have freedom and flexibility to tell a story. There's a reason why Super Saiyan in the manga has no rules besides the emotional trigger, when previously Mr.Toriyama went out of his way to give Oozaru a multiplier when it didn't actually matter.

The guides failed to see Mr.Toriyama's change of direction. Then there's us, who care about knowing how strong the characters are at all points in a story and in all forms. Who use rules to have a foothold, when in the actual story there's none.

You can't get any simpler than Goku saying he's stronger than guy X. If one starts looking for answers to questions the story didn't bother answering, obviously you'll need to look in every corner and under every rock for clues, which takes away the simpleness of it.

If you want to reply it's better to move this into a more appropriated thread, we're into off-topic territory.

[MyNiggaGoku]

On another topic,since we're about a week away from getting the new chapter,what do you guys expect to see from it?

[Gog]

On another topic,since we're about a week away from getting the new chapter,what do you guys expect to see from it?

Anime Black Goku comes back to life, and is warped into the manga world. I fully expect to see him kill manga Goku black and take is place.

[MyNiggaGoku]

On another topic,since we're about a week away from getting the new chapter,what do you guys expect to see from it?

Anime Black Goku comes back to life, and is warped into the manga world. I fully expect to see him kill manga Goku black and take is place.

That would be...interesting. Please come back to life anime Black :'(

[Gog]

On another topic,since we're about a week away from getting the new chapter,what do you guys expect to see from it?

Anime Black Goku comes back to life, and is warped into the manga world. I fully expect to see him kill manga Goku black and take is place.

That would be...interesting. Please come back to life anime Black :'(

*Sobs* he was taken from us far to early . He had so much to live for as well

[MyNiggaGoku]

Anime Black Goku comes back to life, and is warped into the manga world. I fully expect to see him kill manga Goku black and take is place.

That would be...interesting. Please come back to life anime Black :'(

*Sobs* he was taken from us far to early . He had so much to live for as well

I really really hope he will be a badass in the next chapter.He was great in the last one.

[The gr]

That would be...interesting. Please come back to life anime Black :'(

*Sobs* he was taken from us far to early . He had so much to live for as well

I really really hope he will be a badass in the next chapter.He was great in the last one.

Of course our boy Goku black is going to do something awesome in this chapter like the previous one.Because manga and anime Goku black is awesome through I miss anime Goku black

and they made zamasu epic in chapter 20 who agrees with me like seriously burning the senzu bag and paralysing Goku

[MyNiggaGoku]

*Sobs* he was taken from us far to early . He had so much to live for as well

I really really hope he will be a badass in the next chapter.He was great in the last one.

Of course our boy Goku black is going to do something awesome in this chapter like the previous one.Because manga and anime Goku black is awesome through I miss anime Goku black

and they made zamasu epic in chapter 20 who agrees with me like seriously burning senzu bag and paralysing Goku

I loved Future Zamasu in the last chapter.He truly fought like a God,showing contrasting styles from the Present Zamasu(as Goku Black) who fights in a much more brutal way.He showed that raw power is not everything in a battle.

[Noah]

On another topic,since we're about a week away from getting the new chapter,what do you guys expect to see from it?

Super Gogeta Blue

[ConfusedPhantom]

The A plot will probably go into how the Mafuba works to both Goku and Vegeta this time (instead of just Goku), and the B plot will probably be manga Zamasu & manga Goku Black doing something really bad to Trunks to push him into Super Saiyan Rage. Only this time, they give a more concrete explanation for it

[MyNiggaGoku]

On another topic,since we're about a week away from getting the new chapter,what do you guys expect to see from it?

Super Gogeta Blue

Maybe Black & Zamasu will fuse through the Fusion Dance