Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

It wouldn't make a bit of difference. If Vegeta is as strong as Super Saiyan God in his Base form then he would have been able to punish him, smash him or whatever even if Frost was ten, twenty, thirty times as strong as Piccolo.

And that would be farfetched anyway if Piccolo had the potential to defeat him with an attack so Frost would have been a few times stronger perhaps.

Goku went Super Saiyan against Yakon to light up the room. Vegeta went Super Saiyan expecting Cabba to also turn Super Saiyan. Those examples were made clear. Vegeta transformed against Frost and no explanation was given for it so as I said you'd naturally think it was because it was necessary.

Also, why the heck would Toriyama gimped Goku and Vegeta all the way down to be weaker than freaking Piccolo in their base forms, especially after he made a big deal out of Goku making his base form stronger so he wouldn't need Super Saiyan 2 or 3 anymore.

Well that would be the retcon. His Base form wouldn't be ridiculously strong now and that is why Goku has needed to use Super Saiyan 2 and 3 in Dragon Ball Super.

Even with the retcon they wouldn't have to be weaker than Piccolo and Gohan. They'd just be weaker or even equal to Frost and considering Frost was supposed to be a lot stronger than Piccolo then it leaves plenty of room for Goku and Vegeta to still be stronger than Piccolo and Gohan.

[HeroR]

It wouldn't make a bit of difference. If Vegeta is as strong as Super Saiyan God in his Base form then he would have been able to punish him, smash him or whatever even if Frost was ten, twenty, thirty times as strong as Piccolo.

And that would be farfetched anyway if Piccolo had the potential to defeat him with an attack so Frost would have been a few times stronger perhaps.

Goku went Super Saiyan against Yakon to light up the room. Vegeta went Super Saiyan expecting Cabba to also turn Super Saiyan. Those examples were made clear. Vegeta transformed against Frost and no explanation was given for it so as I said you'd naturally think it was because it was necessary.

Also, why the heck would Toriyama gimped Goku and Vegeta all the way down to be weaker than freaking Piccolo in their base forms, especially after he made a big deal out of Goku making his base form stronger so he wouldn't need Super Saiyan 2 or 3 anymore.

Well that would be the retcon. His Base form wouldn't be ridiculously strong now and that is why Goku has needed to use Super Saiyan 2 and 3 in Dragon Ball Super.

Even with the retcon they wouldn't have to be weaker than Piccolo and Gohan. They'd just be weaker or even equal to Frost and considering Frost was supposed to be a lot stronger than Piccolo then it leaves plenty of room for Goku and Vegeta to still be stronger than Piccolo and Gohan.

Vegeta wanted to smash Frost and hurt him as fast as possible. Nothing suggest he needed to transform.

How is it farfetched since Piccolo used that same move to kill someone way stronger than him in the past? On top of the fact that everyone said, he stood no chance.

Nothing indicates that Vegeta needed to transform. Also, another example. Did Goku needed to go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to kill final form Freeza in the Resurrection 'F' Saga? He could have just as easily killed him with a Kamehameha in his base form since Freeza was hurt, weakened and a Kamehameha from base form Goku nearly killed him in the movie.

A retcon is acknowledged that something has been changed and nothing has shown that Goku or Vegeta's base forms have been gimped, which no one still haven't explained why Toriyama would even bother or why he didn't tell Toei for some reason despite them taking months to do the retelling of Resurrection 'F' or stick the retcon somewhere in the Champa Saga. And Goku never needed those forms. He used them to test his opponents. In a real fight, he usually just go straight to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

[Bullza]

Vegeta wanted to smash Frost and hurt him as fast as possible.

Which he could have simply have done in his Base form if it were as strong as Super Saiyan God because he'd be enormously above Frost if he'd lost that much power that Piccolo could have beaten him.

How is it farfetched since Piccolo used that same move to kill someone way stronger than him in the past? On top of the fact that everyone said, he stood no chance.

Yeah so Raditz was about 3-4 times as strong as Piccolo. So say Frost was also around 3-4 times as strong as Piccolo. That would be a fraction as strong as an apparent Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta who would be well over 200 times as strong as Piccolo most likely.

Vegeta should have been dozens of times stronger than Frost. There was no need for him to transform but he did.

Nothing indicates that Vegeta needed to transform.

Well he did transform so there was a need.

Also, another example. Did Goku needed to go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to kill final form Freeza in the Resurrection 'F' Saga?

Yes most likely. Early in the fight Goku used his Kamehameha to push his own attack into Frieza as well and it didn't really do to much damage to him. Even back in the Namek saga Super Saiyan Goku blasted Frieza when he was chopped in half, weakened and with no energy and he still didn't die.

He was weakened but even then Earth blowing up didn't kill him so he's pretty resilient.

A retcon is acknowledged that something has been changed and nothing has shown that Goku or Vegeta's base forms have been gimped, which no one still haven't explained why Toriyama would even bother or why he didn't tell Toei for some reason despite them taking months to do the retelling of Resurrection 'F' or stick the retcon somewhere in the Champa Saga.

That's why we don't know for sure yet. It mainly just stems from the manga continuity being considerably different as well as some oddities with the story and the recent Goku vs Gohan fight. It's something that we should be able to confirm with this saga I hope.

I did have my own explanation for it anyway. It was so that Toriyama could bring the original Super Saiyan forms. He'd written it that Super Saiyan Blue was what his Super Saiyan was now after having absorbed God and that put him in a corner where he couldn't bring back the original forms unless he made it so Goku actually didn't absorb the power of God which he didn't appear to in the manga.

[buutenks]

Vegeta went ssj to one hit a weakened Frost. That is clear as day that base Vegeta needed ssj to do that. We also know assault form Frost is as strong as base Goku and Vegeta and Cabba. All on screen feats point to ssj being stronger than Frost, base Forms are not.

[HeroR]

Vegeta wanted to smash Frost and hurt him as fast as possible.

Which he could have simply have done in his Base form if it were as strong as Super Saiyan God because he'd be enormously above Frost if he'd lost that much power that Piccolo could have beaten him.

How is it farfetched since Piccolo used that same move to kill someone way stronger than him in the past? On top of the fact that everyone said, he stood no chance.

Yeah so Raditz was about 3-4 times as strong as Piccolo. So say Frost was also around 3-4 times as strong as Piccolo. That would be a fraction as strong as an apparent Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta who would be well over 200 times as strong as Piccolo most likely.

Vegeta should have been dozens of times stronger than Frost. There was no need for him to transform but he did.

Nothing indicates that Vegeta needed to transform.

Well he did transform so there was a need.

Also, another example. Did Goku needed to go Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to kill final form Freeza in the Resurrection 'F' Saga?

Yes most likely. Early in the fight Goku used his Kamehameha to push his own attack into Frieza as well and it didn't really do to much damage to him. Even back in the Namek saga Super Saiyan Goku blasted Frieza when he was chopped in half, weakened and with no energy and he still didn't die.

He was weakened but even then Earth blowing up didn't kill him so he's pretty resilient.

A retcon is acknowledged that something has been changed and nothing has shown that Goku or Vegeta's base forms have been gimped, which no one still haven't explained why Toriyama would even bother or why he didn't tell Toei for some reason despite them taking months to do the retelling of Resurrection 'F' or stick the retcon somewhere in the Champa Saga.

That's why we don't know for sure yet. It mainly just stems from the manga continuity being considerably different as well as some oddities with the story and the recent Goku vs Gohan fight. It's something that we should be able to confirm with this saga I hope.

I did have my own explanation for it anyway. It was so that Toriyama could bring the original Super Saiyan forms. He'd written it that Super Saiyan Blue was what his Super Saiyan was now after having absorbed God and that put him in a corner where he couldn't bring back the original forms unless he made it so Goku actually didn't absorb the power of God which he didn't appear to in the manga.

Vegeta wanted it quick and easy and went overkill. No different than Goku going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan on a weakened Freeza to kill him. Vegeta with eased defected a freaking energy blast by Golden Freeza and that was before he beat him up.

I used Raditz to show that Piccolo can kill a much stronger being with the Special Beam Cannon if he keep charging it. The fact is, we don't know how stronger that beam was other that it put a clean hole through Vados' barrier, that shocked Champa.

Are you honestly telling that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was needed to kill a weakened final form Freeza who was nearly killed by an half-ass Kamehameha by Goku who claimed he was barely warmed up? There isn't much I can tell you. Especially since the power different between Goku and Freeza was great before Goku transformed.

The manga and the anime are not the same continuity, so why are fans so desperate to link them outside of the basic story? We just had Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta beat the shit out of Super Saiyan 1/2 Black, when Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, who is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, got beating up by base form Black. Compared that to the anime where Black in his base form took hits from Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta after he power up, in the manga Black still needed Super Saiyan 1/2 to beat up Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta, and was fighting evenly with Super Saiyan 2 Goku while holding back a lot of power when they first met, while Black was being overwhelmed by Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.

Toriyama wouldn't need to gimped Goku and Vegeta to bring back the regular Super Saiyan forms, especially when it was never said they lost them. In the Battle of Gods movie, Goku went Super Saiyan and still was able to fight on par with Beerus. That right there confirmed that Goku never lost his previous forms. In Resurrection 'F' , Goku called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan with the power of a god. Super cleared this up even more by showing that Goku's base and Super Saiyan form clearly don't have god ki, yet is still stronger than ever to the point that he noticed no power drop.

In the end, no, Toriyama didn't write himself into a corner since it was already established in Battle of Gods that Goku's normal Super Saiyan was strong enough to fight Beerus.

[Bullza]

Vegeta wanted it quick and easy and went overkill.

It would already have been overkill. It'd be Vegeta at Super Saiyan God level against a character who maybe at best is several times stronger than Piccolo. You couldn't really get that much easier.

This essentially should hardly be any different from Vegeta effortlessly killing Tagoma who was stronger than Piccolo. No transformation should have been needed to make it easy it should have already have been incredibly easy to begin with.

Are you honestly telling that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was needed to kill a weakened final form Freeza who was nearly killed by an half-ass Kamehameha by Goku who claimed he was barely warmed up?

That IS what was used so obviously he needed to use it. Like I already said Frieza is very tough so much that the combination of Goku's Kamehameha and Freeza's attack exploding in his face had little effect on him.

Weakened or not he would surely have still survived if Goku didn't transform considering even when he did transform back in the Namek saga he still didn't kill Frieza when he was even more weakened and then the planet blew up with him still on it.

The manga and the anime are not the same continuity, so why are fans so desperate to link them outside of the basic story?

They aren't the same continuity but they are based on the same outline. There appears to be two completely different power scales between the anime and manga and only one of them would be accurate to Toriyama's interpretation.

The manga's power scale would appear to make more sense with the overall story.

In the end, no, Toriyama didn't write himself into a corner since it was already established in Battle of Gods that Goku's normal Super Saiyan was strong enough to fight Beerus.

That was Battle of Gods. Toriyama hadn't even thought of any idea for a follow up to that movie or Super Saiyan Blue at the time.

Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods. In Resurrection F Super Saiyan Blue was said to be the Super Saiyan form of one who'd absorbed Super Saiyan God.

That is all it was supposed to be, when he turns Super Saiyan he automatically turns blue now. The only way to bring back the original Super Saiyan forms is to make it so he didn't absorb Super Saiyan God so he wouldn't just turn blue every time.

And meanwhile in the manga it might not be a coincidence that he didn't absorb that power even though it was a major plot point.

[HeroR]

Vegeta wanted it quick and easy and went overkill.

It would already have been overkill. It'd be Vegeta at Super Saiyan God level against a character who maybe at best is several times stronger than Piccolo. You couldn't really get that much easier.

This essentially should hardly be any different from Vegeta effortlessly killing Tagoma who was stronger than Piccolo. No transformation should have been needed to make it easy it should have already have been incredibly easy to begin with.

Are you honestly telling that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was needed to kill a weakened final form Freeza who was nearly killed by an half-ass Kamehameha by Goku who claimed he was barely warmed up?

That IS what was used so obviously he needed to use it. Like I already said Frieza is very tough so much that the combination of Goku's Kamehameha and Freeza's attack exploding in his face had little effect on him.

Weakened or not he would surely have still survived if Goku didn't transform considering even when he did transform back in the Namek saga he still didn't kill Frieza when he was even more weakened and then the planet blew up with him still on it.

The manga and the anime are not the same continuity, so why are fans so desperate to link them outside of the basic story?

They aren't the same continuity but they are based on the same outline. There appears to be two completely different power scales between the anime and manga and only one of them would be accurate to Toriyama's interpretation.

The manga's power scale would appear to make more sense with the overall story.

In the end, no, Toriyama didn't write himself into a corner since it was already established in Battle of Gods that Goku's normal Super Saiyan was strong enough to fight Beerus.

That was Battle of Gods. Toriyama hadn't even thought of any idea for a follow up to that movie or Super Saiyan Blue at the time.

Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods. In Resurrection F Super Saiyan Blue was said to be the Super Saiyan form of one who'd absorbed Super Saiyan God.

That is all it was supposed to be, when he turns Super Saiyan he automatically turns blue now. The only way to bring back the original Super Saiyan forms is to make it so he didn't absorb Super Saiyan God so he wouldn't just turn blue every time.

And meanwhile in the manga it might not be a coincidence that he didn't absorb that power even though it was a major plot point.

No more overkill than Goku using Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to waste a weakened final form Freeza. And no. Just because they used a form doesn't mean, 'they obviously needed it' when Vegeta in his freaking base form deflected a blast from Golden Freeza and Goku in his base form made a complete fool of final form Freeza without really trying. To say that Goku needed his full power to kill final form Freeza after he's worn and beating is just outstanding. Plus, Freeza is the same person who in the manga got easily killed by Trunks who was only as strong as Namek Saga Goku because he was off-guard. Freeza was equally off-guard when Goku wasted him with a Kamehameha.

Unless you have seen the outline, that is just you guessing and assuming things. And you're telling me that Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta beating up Super Saiyan 1/2 Black makes perfect sense when base Black beat the shit out of Super Saiyan 2 Trunks who is as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku? Or how the hell did Trunks even get this mutated Super Saiyan 2 form other than, 'I trained for it'.

That was in the dub. In the Japanese version, Goku only called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan a Super Saiyan with god ki. Nothing about Super Saiyan God. The rest is just something fans assumed. Not what the movie actually said.

And that an assumption that Goku didn't absorbed god ki in the manga based completely on him transforming into a Super Saiyan God, something he did in Battle of Gods after he took godhood into his being.

[Bullza]

No more overkill than Goku using Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to waste a weakened final form Freeza.

Yes it is because that one wasn't overkill. Vegeta being dozens of times stronger than Frost is overkill. There was never any need for him to transform in that instance unlike your example.

Vegeta in his freaking base form deflected a blast from Golden Freeza and Goku in his base form made a complete fool of final form Freeza without really trying. To say that Goku needed his full power to kill final form Freeza after he's worn and beating is just outstanding.

Vegeta deflected a tiny generic Ki blast intended to kill a fly like Krillin, there's nothing impressive about that. Goku stomping Frieza doesn't account for Frieza's durability. As weak as he appeared he still survived Earth's explosion. You saw Goku's Kamehameha do insignificant damage to Frieza even when combined with Freeza's blast.

I don't know why you'd assume the same Kamehameha would just wipe Frieza out weakened or not especially after what happened during the Frieza saga.

Unless you have seen the outline, that is just you guessing and assuming things.

Of course. I've only ever said a retcon was a possibility. Guessing and assuming is pretty much all anyone is able to do with this shows power scale.

And you're telling me that Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta beating up Super Saiyan 1/2 Black makes perfect sense when base Black beat the shit out of Super Saiyan 2 Trunks who is as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku? Or how the hell did Trunks even get this mutated Super Saiyan 2 form other than, 'I trained for it'.

I wasn't talking about specifics. Just in general. It's hard to swallow a lot what happened in the Universe 6 saga when you're supposed to believe they're all either as strong or dozens of times stronger than Super Saiyan God.

Base Goku being as strong as Super Saiyan God but then the multipliers still apply so he'd be hundreds or even thousands of times stronger than God depending on his form but Beerus is still stronger which then makes the Battle of Gods saga a weird mess.

Trunks being comparable to Goku which would make him dozens of times stronger than God and other things. It just doesn't make sense.

Them all being much weaker than Super Saiyan God as was presented in the manga makes far more sense.

And that an assumption that Goku didn't absorbed god ki in the manga based completely on him transforming into a Super Saiyan God, something he did in Battle of Gods after he took godhood into his being.

A scene that was actually corrected for the anime where Goku didn't transform into Super Saiyan God a second time. It's an assumption based on the scene where it was explained that he'd absorbed that power being completely omitted in the manga and then yes he still transforms into it in the manga.

Toriyama said he absorbed the power so wouldn't need to transform into it anymore. Surely why the form never appeared again in the anime because he did absorb it. So if he did use it in the manga then it's because he didn't absorb it and like I said they never said he did.

[ekrolo2]

In the same year as F came out where Goku and Vegeta are probably a few more months away from being able to fight 100% Beerus to a stalemate (F the movie), Toriyama suddenly decided to nerf them into being worthless shit tier scrubs for the foreseeable future, if that doesn't tell you they got nerfed in Base and by extension in everything else I don't know what does.

[Chillekasper]

What is the powerlevel of Gohan right now?

[Zamasu55]

What is the powerlevel of Gohan right now?

He's almost as strong as Ssj Goku.

[ChiefWamsutta]

So I have been thinking ... if we have SS, SS Grade 2, SS Grade 3, SS Grade 4, SS2 (SS Grade 5), and SS3 (SS Grade 6) ...

would it be possible that Furious SS2 ('My Bulma') and Trunks' Improved SS2 fit in there?

Could SSRage fit in there? Would it be SS Grade 7 or a different path since it came from SS2 instead of SS3?

[DBZ Macky]

Lol, people be discussing Godku and shit while I'm here confused about Goten, Trunks and Gotenks' power. I think these 3 are really the only ones which make up for all the differences in different peoples' list. And really, affect ALL the powar levul numbas for every single character Boo arc onward ( which includes Super, obviously) since the brats are major players in the Boo arc (Or at least the power scale). I'd say they're somewhat important for Super's scaling too!
Therefore, I request my fellow members to please help me out here.

Some NEW points brought up in Super:

1. Vegeta (somewhat) directly confirms that Piccolo is stronger than Goten & Trunks in one of the Super episodes, specifically when he tells the kids to get stronger on their own before they are ready to compete in the U6 tournament. Piccolo is a viable candidate but not the kids. This could also have to do with experience and all that stuff though. Believe me, this is very, very helpful. I remember the days about arguing "The kids were in base, they stronger" or "No, but Boo had Piccolo's cape, Pic stronger confirmed!!1!".

2. Apparently, Future Trunks can pretty much keep his own at the very least against SS Trunks.

3. Gotenks makes Tagoma writhe in pain (which, to be honest, is pretty much just for laughs). But Freeza does not comment a bit on Gotenks' power, opting to get furious at Gohan's transformation instead.

Likewise, I'm completely confused as to how to make the "Goten = Gohan" stuff from one of the Daizenshuu work.

[HeroR]

Lol, people be discussing Godku and shit while I'm here confused about Goten, Trunks and Gotenks' power. I think these 3 are really the only ones which make up for all the differences in different peoples' list. And really, affect ALL the powar levul numbas for every single character Boo arc onward ( which includes Super, obviously) since the brats are major players in the Boo arc (Or at least the power scale). I'd say they're somewhat important for Super's scaling too!
Therefore, I request my fellow members to please help me out here.

Some NEW points brought up in Super:

1. Vegeta (somewhat) directly confirms that Piccolo is stronger than Goten & Trunks in one of the Super episodes, specifically when he tells the kids to get stronger on their own before they are ready to compete in the U6 tournament. Piccolo is a viable candidate but not the kids. This could also have to do with experience and all that stuff though. Believe me, this is very, very helpful. I remember the days about arguing "The kids were in base, they stronger" or "No, but Boo had Piccolo's cape, Pic stronger confirmed!!1!".

2. Apparently, Future Trunks can pretty much keep his own at the very least against SS Trunks.

3. Gotenks makes Tagoma writhe in pain (which, to be honest, is pretty much just for laughs). But Freeza does not comment a bit on Gotenks' power, opting to get furious at Gohan's transformation instead.

Likewise, I'm completely confused as to how to make the "Goten = Gohan" stuff from one of the Daizenshuu work.

That was based on Buu Saga Goku, who is much weaker than Super Goku.

[Marlowe89]

That is clear as day that base Vegeta needed ssj to do that. We also know assault form Frost is as strong as base Goku and Vegeta and Cabba. All on screen feats point to ssj being stronger than Frost, base Forms are not.

This.

The burden of proof is entirely on the person suggesting that Vegeta was somehow drastically overcompensating against Frost for no discernable reason, not the person just going by what Toei conveyed. The alternative just comes across as grasping, to be frank.

[Bullza]

Super Saiyan Kid Trunks was powerful enough that at full power Goku was able to sense him from Beerus' planet. Likewise Goku could not sense Gohan powering up until after he transformed.

Which to me implies Super Saiyan Kid Trunks > Base Gohan > Piccolo

But I suppose based on Vegeta's comment in the Universe 6 saga that maybe they both surpassed Kid Trunks after all that training.

And yeah it's implied he's weaker than Base Future Trunks. So I see something like this

Base Future Trunks > Base Gohan = Piccolo > Super Saiyan Kid Trunks > Base Gohan (RoF) > Piccolo (RoF)

Though I suppose with Trunks being comparable to Goku and then it now appearing that Gohan may be also be comparable to Goku then Trunks and Gohan could just be equal instead.

[HeroR]

That is clear as day that base Vegeta needed ssj to do that. We also know assault form Frost is as strong as base Goku and Vegeta and Cabba. All on screen feats point to ssj being stronger than Frost, base Forms are not.

This.

The burden of proof is entirely on the person suggesting that Vegeta was somehow drastically overcompensating against Frost for no discernable reason, not the person just going by what Toei conveyed. The alternative just comes across as grasping, to be frank.

Burden of proof? There is no proof that Vegeta needed to transform other than, 'well he transformed'. Like I said, did Goku need to transform to kill a weakened and hurt final form Freeza when Vegeta in his base form deflected a shot from Golden Freeza?

Toei didn't convey anything other than Vegeta went Super Saiyan.

[DBZ Macky]

I don't think there's any merit to discussing Goku and Vegeta's bases or likewise, people like Frost and Cabba's powers. It's pretty clear that both me and Marlowe have already heard the same arguments again and again, yet we still believe the two base theory. HeroR on the other hand, clearly dismisses the possibility of two bases, mostly because we don't have any "concrete proof". It's best to wait for newer information to continue this discussion.
Clearly, there's no merit to using those scenes as "proof" of any sort because they really are too vague and can be interpreted differently.

make the "Goten = Gohan" stuff from one of the Daizenshuu work.

That was based on Buu Saga Goku, who is much weaker than Super Goku.

I have no idea how Goku relates to all of this. care to explain?

[HeroR]

I don't think there's any merit to discussing Goku and Vegeta's bases or likewise, people like Frost and Cabba's powers. It's pretty clear that both me and Marlowe have already heard the same arguments again and again, yet we still believe the two base theory. HeroR on the other hand, clearly dismisses the possibility of two bases, mostly because we don't have any "concrete proof". It's best to wait for newer information to continue this discussion.
Clearly, there's no merit to using those scenes as "proof" of any sort because they really are too vague and can be interpreted differently.

Lol, people be discussing Godku and shit while I'm here confused about Goten, Trunks and Gotenks' power. I think these 3 are really the only ones which makemake the "Goten = Gohan" stuff from one of the Daizenshuu work.

That was based on Buu Saga Goku, who is much weaker than Super Goku.

I have no idea how Goku relates to all of this. care to explain?

Read that wrong.

In the Buu Saga, Goten nearly killed Gohan with rocks. Gohan only had a slight edge thanks to experience.

[Marlowe89]

Burden of proof?

Yes, burden of proof. You were the one asserting that Vegeta didn't need to transform into Super Saiyan at all and was somehow overcompensating out of nowhere despite the fact that he specifically chose to transform when defeating Frost. You haven't provided a modicum of evidence to back this notion up.

When you make a strong claim like that, the onus is on you to substantiate it. So far you've failed to do so, instead throwing up the argumentative equivalent of "Well prove that this completely baseless premise I've brought up ISN'T true!" and using a bunch of irrelevant (and rather poorly interpreted on your part) examples from other points in the series even though they share no circumstantial relation to the discussion at hand.

It doesn't work like that. The ball's in your court.