Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

So, Yamcha surpassed a Goku who was stronger than Vegeta after 2 trips inside the RoSaT. How?

What other method exists that allows the Earthlings to keep up? Except you know, Toei and "plot".

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Does anyone have the brains to explain Tenshinhan and Yamcha's perfomance in Anime-exclusive scenes without using the word "filler"?

Specifically, Tien vs Trunks and Yamcha vs Olibu.

I like to think the M9 was a what if scenario where Tenshinhan trained on the Rosat with Trunks when he went to the 2nd year. About Yamcha vs Olibu, i belive Olibu was holding back (A LOT) against Yamcha, that was just a sparring match.

Have you guys forgot that at this point Tien shouldn't be stronger than Krillin?

Nope. Tenshinhan IS stronger than Krillin.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Have you guys forgot that at this point Tien shouldn't be stronger than Krillin?

Nope. Tenshinhan IS stronger than Krillin.

No he isn't, he fell behind in the Namek Arc and never caught up.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Have you guys forgot that at this point Tien shouldn't be stronger than Krillin?

Nope. Tenshinhan IS stronger than Krillin.

No he isn't, he fell behind in the Namek Arc and never caught up.

Tenshinhan trained for 9 months with King Kai, and had a harder training than Goku's, sparring partners and didn't waste time learning Kaioken and SB. The best i can see is Krillin being slightly stronger than Tien in Cell Saga.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Nope. Tenshinhan IS stronger than Krillin.

No he isn't, he fell behind in the Namek Arc and never caught up.

Tenshinhan trained for 9 months with King Kai, and had a harder training than Goku's, sparring partners and didn't waste time learning Kaioken and SB. The best i can see is Krillin being slightly stronger than Tien in Cell Saga.

But he's a human, not a Saiyan. Also, Kuririn was over 75,000 by the end of the Frieza Arc. Tenshinhan was at 1,830 when he died, so even if Kuririn didn't improve at all he'd have to become over 40x stronger to catch up, so given that Kuririn himself is also training and getting stronger the actual gap is much larger.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No he isn't, he fell behind in the Namek Arc and never caught up.

Tenshinhan trained for 9 months with King Kai, and had a harder training than Goku's, sparring partners and didn't waste time learning Kaioken and SB. The best i can see is Krillin being slightly stronger than Tien in Cell Saga.

But he's a human, not a Saiyan. Also, Kuririn was over 75,000 by the end of the Frieza Arc. Tenshinhan was at 1,830 when he died, so even if Kuririn didn't improve at all he'd have to become over 40x stronger to catch up, so given that Kuririn himself is also training and getting stronger the actual gap is much larger.

I know he don't get massive gains like the saiyans, but the things i just said (Sparring partners, harder training and didn't waste time learning Kaio's techniques) should make him get a boost comparable to Goku's boost. And on the anime he faced Jeice and Boter at the same time, and after he split in two he fight evenly with them.

[Kaboom]

Well Vegeta got way stronger than Piccolo after his ultimate Zenkai on Namek, right? So you think Piccolo closed the gap a lot during this time? I'm not saying it's unreasonable, even more with the way Piccolo replied back to Vegeta's provocation, but just curious. Or maybe do you think Vegeta didn't get much stronger than Piccolo, if at all, after Dende healing him?

Also, Kaboom, can I ask you other thing? Where would you have Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Yamcha after the three years of training, preparing for the androids? Maybe reaching the millions could be reasonable?

Well, DanielSSJ pretty much hit the mark for both questions... I think something about merging with Nail caused Piccolo to grow faster through training, considering how he got all the way up into the Super Saiyan realm of power before the Androids' arrival. So if he'd been training at all in the 2 years between Namek and Trunks (and I can't fathom why he wouldn't), he'd probably have a PL of several million by then.

For the Earthlings' powers, I have Kuririn somewhat over 100,000, Tenshinhan pushing barely half of that, and then Yamcha and Chaozu both trailing behind that. The main reason being that after the big boosts they all got from various things after Namek, they'd be right back to standard training under normal Earth conditions, and not gaining power anywhere nearly as quickly as Piccolo or the Saiyans do. The highest official level we have for any of them is 75,000 for Kuririn against Freeza, so that's what I based it all on.

Buuuut that's mostly just conjecture on my part. If something official came along that said Kuririn breached the 1 million mark somehow, I don't think I'd have a problem with it.

Does anyone have the brains to explain Tenshinhan and Yamcha's perfomance in Anime-exclusive scenes without using the word "filler"? Specifically, Tien vs Trunks and Yamcha vs Olibu.

....Nyoooope, can't really say I do, at least not anything resembling a serious explanation. It's just filler being filler. Trunks vs Ten might be explained as just Trunks being theatrical or wanting to enjoy a fight for once.

Have you guys forgot that at this point Tien shouldn't be stronger than Krillin?

Nope. Tenshinhan IS stronger than Krillin.

Not according to... well, pretty much everything.

[DanielSSJ]

I know he don't get massive gains like the Saiyans, but the things i just said (Sparring partners, harder training and didn't waste time learning Kaio's techniques) should make him get a boost comparable to Goku's boost. And on the anime he faced Jeice and Burter at the same time, and after he split in two he fight evenly with them.

Training with Yamcha and Chiaotzu for a while at Kaio's just wasn't quite as effective as getting your potential magically unlocked in this case, seeing as pretty much everything official that has anything to say on the subject matter since the Boo Arc has pegged Kuririn as the strongest.
As Kaboom mentioned, after the Freeza arc, they all went back to regular, not-at-all-strenuous Earth conditions, so without anything special to invigorate their training, their progress slows down a lot. So if Kuririn had a massive power lead before that, Tenshinhan would be hard-pressed to overcome that just by doing push-ups and sit-ups in the mountains. He isn't Saitama, after all.

Besides, and I hate to bring this up so soon, but the dead Z Fighters vs the dead Ginyu Force is a filler-based plot hole. In the manga and in the anime, they clearly state that regular Joe's and and bad guys don't keep their bodies when they die. It's a privilege for the strongest and most heroic warriors, so there's no way for the Ginyus' to even fight anybody after all that.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I know he don't get massive gains like the Saiyans, but the things i just said (Sparring partners, harder training and didn't waste time learning Kaio's techniques) should make him get a boost comparable to Goku's boost. And on the anime he faced Jeice and Burter at the same time, and after he split in two he fight evenly with them.

Training with Yamcha and Chiaotzu for a while at Kaio's just wasn't quite as effective as getting you're potential magically unlocked in this case, seeing as pretty much everything official that has anything to say on the subject matter since the Boo Arc has pegged Kuririn as the strongest.
As Kaboom mentioned, after he Freeza arc, they all went back to regular, not at all strenuous, Earth conditions, so without any thing special to invigorate their training, they're progress slows down a lot. So if Kuririn had a massive power lead before that, Tenshinhan would be hard-pressed to overcome that just by doing push-ups and sit-ups in the mountains. He isn't Saitama after all.

Besides, and I hate to bring this up so soon, but the dead Z Fighters vs the dead Ginyu Force is a filler-based plot hole. In the manga and in the anime, they clearly state that regular Joe's and and bad guys don't keep their bodies when they die. It's a privilege for the strongest and most heroic warriors, so there's no way for the Ginyus' to even fight anybody after all that.

Chaotsu really isn't a good sparring partner because he's really weak, but i belive Yamcha is another case. On Android Arc, Goku choses Tien over Krillin on the battlefield to face the Androids, and Piccolo choses Tien to help looking for Cell. If Krillin is stronger why didn't they chose him? Even if Krillin was stronger but they choosed Tien because he's more skilled, i don't belive Krillin was much stronger.

About the Z Fighters vs Ginyu Force: Maybe Kaio wanted the Z Fighters to face the Ginyu Force to test them and talked to King Yemma? I don't know, the biggest plot hole here is how the Z Fighters got so strong.

[DanielSSJ]

Chaotsu really isn't a good sparring partner because he's really weak, but i belive Yamcha is another case. On Android Arc, Goku choses Tien over Krillin on the battlefield to face the Androids, and Piccolo choses Tien to help looking for Cell. If Krillin is stronger why didn't they chose him? Even if Krillin was stronger but they choosed Tien because he's more skilled, i don't belive Krillin was much stronger.

About the Z Fighters vs Ginyu Force: Maybe Kaio wanted the Z Fighters to face the Ginyu Force to test them and talked to King Yemma? I don't know, the biggest plot hole here is how the Z Fighters got so strong.

I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to Goku choosing Tenshinhan to fight the 'droids over Kuririn, but Piccolo probably partnered with Tenshinhan to find Cell because of his superior eyesight. Besides, would the power difference between Kuririn and Tenshinhan matter against Cell? It doesn't matter if one of them is a 5 and the other is a 10 if their opponent is a 1,000. Besides, vague implications don't supersede direct statements in my opinion.

As far as the dead Ginyus thing goes, I mentioned before that I really only care about the manga when it comes to stuff like this, so I'm okay with taking or leaving anything the anime adds.

[Kaboom]

Gohan was also sent off on non-combat tasks during the Androids arc instead of staying behind, even before any of the Earthlings were. Goku told him to go make sure Yajirobe was okay when his sky-car was blown up over the city. So unless anyone wants to claim Gohan was actually weaker than even Yamcha, I sincerely doubt that errand-running is any way to judge strength rankings.

[dragonball0900]

In regards to the "Piccolo and Vegeta's power in the Mecha Frieza Arc" topic, I don't think Nail's fusion with Piccolo was the reason why Piccolo made huge gains in the 3 years of training. That was more because Piccolo trained with SSJ Goku, training with someone stronger makes the fighter more stronger. There was also a gap between Piccolo and Vegeta in the Frieza Arc, and I don't think Vegeta made less gains than Piccolo, they could have got the same gains, with Vegeta still being ahead of Piccolo. Vegeta could be around the same level Goku was in Frieza Arc with 3,000,000, while Piccolo could be at 2,000,000.

[ZombieVito]

My headcanon is that Nail already had Guru unlock his hidden potential and that carried over to Piccolo, making his training gains way better.

[DBZ Macky]

Why can't it be both? Piccolo was able to power up greatly because he had an excellent sparring partner in SS Goku and could make complete use of his new and improved power to train beyond his limits.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why can't it be both? Piccolo was able to power up greatly because he had an excellent sparring partner in SS Goku and could make complete use of his new and improved power to train beyond his limits.

This.

Gohan was also sent off on non-combat tasks during the Androids arc instead of staying behind, even before any of the Earthlings were. Goku told him to go make sure Yajirobe was okay when his sky-car was blown up over the city. So unless anyone wants to claim Gohan was actually weaker than even Yamcha, I sincerely doubt that errand-running is any way to judge strength rankings.

Gohan was probably send because he was better at ki sensing and could find easier Yajirobe's low ki. But Krillin is stronger than Tien anyway, Toriyama's words are just too strong to be somehow refuted.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

POWER MULTIPLIERS

Oozaru – 10x
Super Saiyan – 50x
Super Saiyan Grade 2 – 75x
Super Saiyan Grade 3 – 100x
Super Saiyan 2 – 200x
Super Saiyan 3 – 500x

Raditz Arc

[spoiler]Son Gohan – 1
Enraged – 1,307

Son Goku – 416
Piccolo – 408
Tenshinhan – 250
Kuririn – 206
Yamcha – 177
Chaozu – 150
Yajirobe – 145
Muten Roshi – 139

Kaio of the North – 5,000
Enma Daio – 2,500
Kami of Earth – 325
Mr. Popo – 280

Raditz – 1,200
Oozaru – 12,000[/spoiler]
Saiyan Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 8,000
Kaio-Ken x2 – 16,000
Kaio-Ken x3 – 24,000
Kaio-Ken x4 – 32,000

Son Gohan – 1,307
Enraged – 2,800
Oozaru – 13,070

Piccolo – 2,500
Tenshinhan – 1,800
Kuririn – 1,500
Yamcha – 1,300
Chaozu – 1,000
Yajirobe – 800

Saibaimen – 1,200

Nappa – 7,500
Oozaru – 75,000

Vegeta – 18,000
Oozaru – 180,000[/spoiler]

Namek Arc

[spoiler]Son Goku – 90,000
Kaio-Ken x2 – 180,000
Kaio-Ken x10 – 900,000

Vegeta – 24,000
Post-recovery – 30,000
Post-recovery 2 – 50,000

Son Gohan – 1,500
Power Unlocked – 12,000
Post-recovery – 30,000

Kuririn – 1,500
Power Unlocked – 11,000

Dende – 200
Power Unlocked – 500

Muri – 1,000
Young Namekians – 3,000
Nail – 42,000

Freeza – 530,000
Freeza Soldiers – 1,250
Kwi – 18,000
Dodoria – 20,000

Zarbon – 22,000
Transformed – 29,000

Gurd – 5,000
Recoome – 40,000
Butta – 40,000
Jheese – 40,000
Captain Ginyu – 120,000[/spoiler]

Freeza Arc

[spoiler]Son Goku – 2,500,000
Kaio-Ken x10 – 25,000,000
Kaio-Ken x20 – 50,000,000
Super Saiyan – 125,000,000

Vegeta – 500,000
Post-recovery – 2,200,000

Son Gohan – 150,000
Enraged – 750,000
Post-recovery – 600,000
Enraged – 1,500,000

Piccolo – 300,000
Merged with Nail – 1,200,000

Kuririn – 11,000

Freeza – 530,000
Second Form – 800,000
Power-Up 1 – 900,000
Power-Up 2 – 1,060,000
Third Form – 1,590,000
True Form – 2,120,000
Power-Up – 2,650,000
50% Power – 50,000,000
70% Power – 70,000,000
100% Power – 100,000,000[/spoiler]

Mecha Freeza Arc

[spoiler]Son Goku – 3,000,000
Super Saiyan – 150,000,000

Trunks – 2,850,000
Super Saiyan – 142,500,000

Vegeta – 2,500,000
Piccolo – 1,500,000
Son Gohan – 600,000
Tenshinhan – 16,000
Kuririn – 12,000
Yamcha – 8,000
Chaozu – 4,000

Freeza Soldiers – 2,500
King Cold – 80,000,000
Mecha Freeza – 120,000,000[/spoiler]

Future Arc I

[spoiler]Future Gohan – 2,750,000
Super Saiyan – 137,500,000

Kid Trunks – 50,000
Super Saiyan – 2,500,000

Future Android 18 – 240,000,000
Future Android 17 – 250,000,000[/spoiler]


Artificial Human Arc

[spoiler]Son Goku – 3,600,000
Super Saiyan – 180,000,000

Vegeta – 3,750,000
Super Saiyan – 187,500,000
Post-RoSaT – 8,500,000
Super Saiyan – 425,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 2 – 637,500,000
Super Saiyan Grade 3 – 850,000,000

Trunks – 3,200,000
Super Saiyan – 160,000,000
Post-RoSaT – 8,000,000
Super Saiyan – 400,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 2 – 600,000,000
Super Saiyan Grade 3 – 800,000,000

Piccolo – 125,000,000
Super Namekian – 250,000,000

Gohan – 2,500,000
Tenshinhan – 20,000
Kuririn – 15,000
Yamcha – 10,000
Chaozu – 5,000

Android 19 – 60,000,000
Post-absorption – 100,000,000

Android 20 – 50,000,000
Post-absorption – 90,000,000

Android 18 – 240,000,000
Android 17 – 250,000,000
Android 16 – 312,500,000

Cell – 210,000,000
Humans Absorbed – 312,500,000
Second Form – 425,000,000
Full Power – 500,000,000
Perfect Form – 600,000,000
Power Up – 750,000,000
Bulked Up – 937,500,000[/spoiler]

Cell Games Arc
[spoiler]Son Gohan – 47,500,000
Super Saiyan – 2,375,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 9,500,000,000
Injured – 4,500,000,000

Son Goku – 40,000,000
Super Saiyan – 2,000,000,000

Vegeta – 31,500,000
Super Saiyan – 1,575,000,000

Trunks – 30,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,500,000,000

Piccolo – 1,250,000,000
Android 16 – 312,500,000

Cell Juniors – 1,600,000,000

Perfect Cell – 2,100,000,000
Full Speed – 2,400,000,000
Full Power – 3,000,000,000
Bulked Up – 3,750,000,000
"Super Perfect" – 5,000,000,000[/spoiler]

Future Arc II

[spoiler]Trunks – 30,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,500,000,000
3 Years Later – 35,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,750,000,000

Future Android 18 – 240,000,000
Future Android 17 – 250,000,000
Cell – 312,500,000[/spoiler]


Buu Arc

[spoiler]Son Goku – 50,000,000
Super Saiyan – 2,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 10,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 – 25,000,000,000

Vegeta – 45,000,000
Super Saiyan – 2,250,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 9,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 [Majin boost] – 10,000,000,000

Son Gohan – 37,500,000
Super Saiyan – 1,875,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 7,500,000,000
Ultimate – 75,000,000,000

Son Goten – 25,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,250,000,000
Post-RoSaT – 30,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,500,000,000

Trunks – 26,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,300,000,000
Post-RoSaT – 30,000,000
Super Saiyan – 1,500,000,000

Gotenks – 10,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 25,000,000,000
Post-RoSaT – 12,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 30,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 – 60,000,000,000

Vegetto – 100,000,000,000
Super Saiyan – 250,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 – 500,000,000,000

Piccolo – 1,800,000,000
Android 18 – 240,000,000
Tenshinhan – 24,000
Kuririn – 12,500
Yamcha – 8,000
Chaozu – 6,000
Dende – 2,000

Grand Kaioshin – 22,500,000,000
Kaioshin of the South – 30,000,000,000
Kaioshin of the North – 2,500,000,000
Kaioshin of the West – 2,200,000,000

Rou Kaioshin – 1,000,000
Kibito – 20,000,000
Kaioshin of the East - 2,000,000,000
Merged – 20,000,000,000

Babidi – 10
Pui Pui – 22,000
Yakon – 65,000,000
Dabra – 6,000,000,000

Pure Boo – 25,000,000,000
Buff Boo – 55,000,000,000
Majin Boo – 22,500,000,000
Evil Boo – 12,500,000,000
Good Boo – 10,000,000,000
Super Boo – 50,000,000,000
+ Gotenks – 110,000,000,000
+ Son Gohan – 125,000,000,000[/spoiler]

28th Tenkaichi Budokai Arc

[spoiler]Son Goku – 60,000,000
Super Saiyan – 3,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 12,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 – 30,000,000,000

Vegeta – 55,000,000
Super Saiyan – 2,750,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 11,000,000,000

Son Goten – 40,000,000
Super Saiyan – 2,000,000,000

Trunks – 40,000,000
Super Saiyan – 2,000,000,000

Son Gohan – 75,000,000,000
Mister Boo – 10,000,000,000
Piccolo – 2,500,000,000
Oob – 60,000,000
Pan – 2,000,000[/spoiler]

[Noah]

Does anyone have the brains to explain Tenshinhan and Yamcha's perfomance in Anime-exclusive scenes without using the word "filler"?

Specifically, Tien vs Trunks and Yamcha vs Olibu.

I think Toei and most of fans always acknowledged Tenshinhan as the strongest earthling because of his tough looking appearance, "feats" and Krillin in most added material in the anime or movies was used as a joke, but Toriyama is the author and if he says Krillin is in fact the strongest earthling, giving to Yamcha speaking and his interview about the subject, we just need to accept it.

[Dr. Gero]

Well, DanielSSJ pretty much hit the mark for both questions... I think something about merging with Nail caused Piccolo to grow faster through training, considering how he got all the way up into the Super Saiyan realm of power before the Androids' arrival. So if he'd been training at all in the 2 years between Namek and Trunks (and I can't fathom why he wouldn't), he'd probably have a PL of several million by then.

Fair enough, Kaboom and DanielSSJ. But considering the reading I gave to the manga, Vegeta got way stronger than Piccolo after his final Zenkai, or am I wrong? Vegeta could at least see Freeza's true form attacks, but I don't know if that necessarily puts him above post Nail Piccolo, so correct if I'm wrong.

My headcanon is that Nail already had Guru unlock his hidden potential and that carried over to Piccolo, making his training gains way better.

But Kuririn also got his potential unlocked and reached 75,000. Does that mean Kuririn has a higher potential than Nail? It could be, but seems a little fishy to me

[DanielSSJ]

Fair enough, Kaboom and DanielSSJ. But considering the reading I gave to the manga, Vegeta got way stronger than Piccolo after his final Zenkai, or am I wrong? Vegeta could at least see Freeza's true form attacks, but I don't know if that necessarily puts him above post Nail Piccolo, so correct if I'm wrong.

Well yeah, Vegeta started out stronger than Piccolo, but Piccolo was gaining strength at a faster rate, so that in two years time, he had overtaken him.

But Kuririn also got his potential unlocked and reached 75,000. Does that mean Kuririn has a higher potential than Nail? It could be, but seems a little fishy to me

He's got you there ZombieVito.

[TheUltimateNinja]

How strong do you think Mr. Satan is? I figure he'd be around 7 in his prime.

Also, how would you define the phrase "Many times stronger"? I figured that by making Z Goku's power level 924 and BoDB Goku's power level 10 you could make all of these statements fit, but it turns out there's a lot of 'em in DB. What's the lowest possible value for this?