Toyotaro tracing

[Doctor.]

You have a problem calling it "tracing" if the final panel has adjustments applied? It's still most likely the result of a traced image. I could hold a piece of paper over Mona Lisa and copy pencil for paint stroke, then reshape her into a more masculine build in a redraw of that. It's still the result of tracing.

The word is fine.

But Toyotaro doesn't do that. What Toyotaro does would be the equivalent of me googling a picture of Mona Lisa, then copying it to a piece of paper with nothing but my eyes and talent. That's not tracing. Of course, I can't say with 100% certainty that Toyotaro does this and he doesn't actually trace some parts from the original panels, but the variation in anatomy and angles makes me thing he's just using them as references.

Is Toriyama really A-ok with it though? If he sometimes can't recall story beats, would he recall specific panels?

This is a good point, I guess we'll never know unless he's ever directly asked about it. I personally don't think Toriyama is as forgetful as people make him out to be, though. There are very iconic panels that he should be able to remember.

[MyNiggaGoku]

I think we can already see that while keeping his own style intact,his drawings scream something like ''Wow,that's Toriyama-esque!'' and not something like ''Did Toriyama himself drew that ?!''.

Indeed. That's why I said he's great as he is right now, he's in a perfect balance between emulating Toriyama and expressing himself through his own style. All I said was that he doesn't need to try emulating Toriyama more, because doing so would just break that balance and make him fall into the "Did Toriyama himself draw that?!" category, turning him into a bland and less interesting artist.

100% agreed.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

But Toyotaro doesn't do that. What Toyotaro does would be the equivalent of me googling a picture of Mona Lisa, then copying it to a piece of paper with nothing but my eyes and talent. That's not tracing. Of course, I can't say with 100% certainty that Toyotaro does this and he doesn't actually trace some parts from the original panels, but the variation in anatomy and angles makes me thing he's just using them as references.

I guess it's just a difference in interpreting the image, because I don't believe for a second that he's copying them just from looking.

[RehBeh]

If Toyo openly admits that he uses Toriyama's work for references and doesn't pass it as his own it's not plagiarism.

He goes much farther than "using Toriyama's work for reference". Even if he admitted what he was actually doing, that wouldn't make it not plagiarism. I still haven't said that it is, by the way, only that's it's on the edge of that cliff.

Yes, we can. Even with the consent of the original author, plagiarism isn't negated.
Either way, consent doesn't refute plagiarism, not even by the definition you just gave.

The way you phrased implies otherwise. Also if he admitted that he traces that's not plagiarism, since he doesn't pass it as it's own. A plagiarism case is MaStar Media, which he indeed traces and plagiarizes other's work.

[RehBeh]

I think we can already see that while keeping his own style intact,his drawings scream something like ''Wow,that's Toriyama-esque!'' and not something like ''Did Toriyama himself drew that ?!''.

Indeed. That's why I said he's great as he is right now, he's in a perfect balance between emulating Toriyama and expressing himself through his own style. All I said was that he doesn't need to try emulating Toriyama more, because doing so would just break that balance and make him fall into the "Did Toriyama himself draw that?!" category, turning him into a bland and less interesting artist.

100% agreed.

I agree too, but i believe he has room for improvement left and can make his style even more unique with the proper experience.

[MyNiggaGoku]

Indeed. That's why I said he's great as he is right now, he's in a perfect balance between emulating Toriyama and expressing himself through his own style. All I said was that he doesn't need to try emulating Toriyama more, because doing so would just break that balance and make him fall into the "Did Toriyama himself draw that?!" category, turning him into a bland and less interesting artist.

100% agreed.

I agree too, but i believe he has room for improvement left and can make his style even more unique with the proper experience.

With Toriyama in his side,he will become an incredible artist,more so than he already is.

[z_cherub]

But Toyotaro doesn't do that. What Toyotaro does would be the equivalent of me googling a picture of Mona Lisa, then copying it to a piece of paper with nothing but my eyes and talent. That's not tracing. Of course, I can't say with 100% certainty that Toyotaro does this and he doesn't actually trace some parts from the original panels, but the variation in anatomy and angles makes me thing he's just using them as references.

I guess it's just a difference in interpreting the image, because I don't believe for a second that he's copying them just from looking.

Did Toyotaro kill your dog or something? Why are you so invested in this?

You make a lot of baseless accusations here, with nothing to back them up but, "you can't convince me he's not tracing!". While many images are similar, the build, anatomy, and sometimes positioning are slightly different.

AT was a master of unique angles in action sequences. It's more likely, IMO, that Toyotaro is simply less creative in that regard (a long with 90% of other artists), so he uses iconic scenes he likes as references.

I've got a ton of images i used a reference for when learning a certain style that you'd accuse me of tracing...





All of these used a reference so I only try to learn the style, but all have zero direct tracing (don't know why the last one is potato quality...)

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Yes, we can. Even with the consent of the original author, plagiarism isn't negated.
Either way, consent doesn't refute plagiarism, not even by the definition you just gave.

The way you phrased implies otherwise.

It doesn't, especially when I had just said "borderline". You assumed my position without taking into account everything I wrote, that's on you.

Also if he admitted that he traces that's not plagiarism, since he doesn't pass it as it's own.

Say a sibling of yours types an essay for a Dragon Ball course. The next year, you take that same course, you're on your siblings computer (for whatever reason) and you notice that they still have a copy on their computer. Then, using the siblings paper as a reference, you write your own essay, making all the same points as she did, but you re-word and re-arrange everything. When you go to turn that essay in to your Dragon Ball professor, you tell him that you copied your siblings essay from the previous year. Is it still plagiarism?

You make a lot of baseless accusations here, with nothing to back them up but, "you can't convince me he's not tracing!". While many images are similar, the build, anatomy, and sometimes positioning are slightly different.

Obviously, I can't prove it. I would call him a plagiarist if I could. I've already accounted for differences in the style of the characters (and even explained it).

I can't say for sure if you are tracing, since I don't have the images in front of me. However I'm not going to assume that you are. I do assume that Toyotaro is because there are so many and they're way too similar.

[TheMikado]

But Toyotaro doesn't do that. What Toyotaro does would be the equivalent of me googling a picture of Mona Lisa, then copying it to a piece of paper with nothing but my eyes and talent. That's not tracing. Of course, I can't say with 100% certainty that Toyotaro does this and he doesn't actually trace some parts from the original panels, but the variation in anatomy and angles makes me thing he's just using them as references.

I guess it's just a difference in interpreting the image, because I don't believe for a second that he's copying them just from looking.

Really? I do this all the time and I'm not even a skilled artist at all. This is a very very very basic artistic skill. It's fairly obvious they are not traces.

Further as far as the plagiarism idea, plagiarism will be determined by the authorizing agency such as a professor in your example, a rights holder, or the original creator depending on where the authorizing agent and rights are. For instance Toriyama has rights to his designs but if he sells them to Toei and loses all rights Toei can allow other artists to do whatever they want and Toriyama can no longer call plagiarism because he no longer owns the rights. That being said Toyotaro is producing official works through the rights holders and authoritizing agency therefore there is no "borderline" plagiarism. It's like accusing a comic book writer or plagiarism when they are authorized to do a Spider-Man comic and mimics past poses from previous comics. The comic artist themselves have no rights to the panels only Marvel who authorized there usage as reference. In your professor example should he authorize the usage of your siblings wor it would NOT be considered plagiarism.

[The gr]

Yeah it's tracing. But that's not what this topic is about, right? this discussion is to ask if Toyotaro is plagiarizing Toriyama, correct?

Nope I'm just asking what are your thoughts on this oh and if you have any panels from his works like DBS DB af that is a homage to the DB manga then post it

[mawilex]

Indeed. That's why I said he's great as he is right now, he's in a perfect balance between emulating Toriyama and expressing himself through his own style. All I said was that he doesn't need to try emulating Toriyama more, because doing so would just break that balance and make him fall into the "Did Toriyama himself draw that?!" category, turning him into a bland and less interesting artist.

100% agreed.

I agree too, but i believe he has room for improvement left and can make his style even more unique with the proper experience.

Oh totally! Like I said on the previous page, he still needs to polish his own style and add some more line variation to his drawings, because they can feel a bit "flat" sometime. But he is in the right way. He'll definitely improve.

[Draconic]

Toyotaro doesn't outright trace. He's reusing panels or angles but you can tell they are his own drawing, not just a copy. Take the obvious Goku and Vegeta poses. It's the exact same pose, exact same angle and exactly the same framing but the proportions are different, the expressionsare different and the art style is different.
For tracing just take a look at the images posted back a page of YoungJiji's Videl vs Gohan. The only differences from the Videl vs Spopovich fight are minor additions in order to fit the context.

Or for another example take the SSB Vegeta blasting Goku and the Super Saiyan 5 Vegeta blasting whoever the hell that was. In the Super manga it's spread out on two pages, while in the AF one it's only on one, but the flow of the scene is exactly the same. However, the drawings themselves aren't traced with minor differences, they're entirely remade.

EDIT: The Videl scene I'm talking about since I can't seem to find it.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[The gr]

I think toyotaro take on the dragon Ball rebirth of f is his only work that he didn't throw a homage to the DB manga that's odd

[Draconic]

I think toyotaro take on the dragon Ball rebirth of f is his only work that he didn't throw a homage to the DB manga that's odd

That's because he probably had access to the storyboards beforehand. A lot of it is just ripped straight from the movie.

Oh, and the beginning of chapter 1, retelling Freeza's defeat on Namek and death by Trunks is taken straight from the manga. But I guess that's understandable.

[The gr]

I think toyotaro take on the dragon Ball rebirth of f is his only work that he didn't throw a homage to the DB manga that's odd

That's because he probably had access to the storyboards beforehand. A lot of it is just ripped straight from the movie.

Oh, and the beginning of chapter 1, retelling Freeza's defeat on Namek and death by Trunks is taken straight from the manga. But I guess that's understandable.

Did toriyama wrote the storyboard for ROF

[Draconic]

I think toyotaro take on the dragon Ball rebirth of f is his only work that he didn't throw a homage to the DB manga that's odd

That's because he probably had access to the storyboards beforehand. A lot of it is just ripped straight from the movie.

Oh, and the beginning of chapter 1, retelling Freeza's defeat on Namek and death by Trunks is taken straight from the manga. But I guess that's understandable.

Did toriyama wrote the storyboard for ROF

Toriyama wrote the script. The storyboards were entirely drawn by Yammamuro. He was pretty fast too, storyboarding the whole movie by himself in about a month, while regular anime movies have a lot more (don't know how much, not really that versed in pre-production stuff, but I thiiiink it's about 3 to 5 months). Seeing as the manga came out when the movie was already getting trailers and stuff out, Toyotaro would have had plenty of time to check them out. Not to mention he is pretty fast too and unlike actually animating the storyboards, adding or cutting some stuff and reworking them to fit a manga wouldn't be that hard.

[z_cherub]

Obviously, I can't prove it. I would call him a plagiarist if I could.

Wow - no pre-existing bias here...

Genuine question - what is your artistic background (for either personal or professional purposes)? Can you share some of your portfolio? If you're going to level serious accusations like that, perhaps it would help get more people to come around to your perspective if you were to establish that you have some considerable experience with the intricacies of the art/profession you're evaluating & criticizing.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Obviously, I can't prove it. I would call him a plagiarist if I could.

Wow - no pre-existing bias here...

I don't have any bias, why would I? I don't know the guy. If you've been around long enough to have a clue, you'd know that I'm exceedingly lenient on him. However, that doesn't mean that I'll let his work g unchallenged when he's clearly being unoriginal, to an unreasonable extent, even.

Genuine question - what is your artistic background (for either personal or professional purposes)? Can you share some of your portfolio? If you're going to level serious accusations like that, perhaps it would help get more people to come around to your perspective if you were to establish that you have some considerable experience with the intricacies of the art/profession you're evaluating & criticizing.

I can't draw, I can barely hand-write, my hands are too arthritic. The closest thing I have to a background is helping out my older brother when we were younger. He had a hard time with the proportions in hand drawing, and his digital coloring was always gross. However, it has nothing to do with anything. Even if I'm wrong about tracing (Which is entirely possible, it's just a suspicion I have. I could write an essay on the inconsistencies in his drawings that make me suspect it), my core objection remains. Toyotaro rips a significant portion of his work from old Toriyama panels.

[UpFromTheSkies]

The drawings aren't traced, he just uses the same poses and framing as Toriyama in some panels, and it would take an obsessive fan to even notice.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

...it would take an obsessive fan to even notice.

It would take a fan who hasn't read the manga lately not to notice. If you have, it's pretty obvious.