Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

@HugoBoss

You piqued my interest, so I've rewatched the fight myself. Is it when Freeza said Goku was stronger than before because, after all, he had defeated Majin Buu? Or was it something else that I missed? That one tidbit from Freeza doesn't really mean much in regards to Goku's power in base form in my opinion (for more than one reason). I think there was a considerably more concrete indication about Goku's strength when Goten and Trunks talked about some "incredible ki" and felt visibly excited at the prospect of spectating, though - which wouldn't really make sense if Freeza and Goku were weaker than Gotenks.

[Bullza]

There was also Base Goku and Frieza fighting so fast that Gohan and Krillin couldn't keep up with their movements, only Jaco. They were able to see Goku fighting Beerus though just fine.

Of course this was always one of those inconsistent things because I don't recall them having trouble seeing Goku or Vegeta fight people during the Universe 6 saga. Though in the manga Krillin and Roshi actually did comment on Goku's speed and them not being able to keep up with it.

[Marlowe89]

Though I don't like it, I can't deny this ridiculous idea that Cabba and Great Saiyaman are stronger than Super Saiyan God has some basis. I would prefer to think Goku and Vegeta's supressed forms were intentionally nerfed to add some tension to Champa Arc, but the show was never straightforward about this.

Even in the absolute best case scenario, I don't really think it has any more basis than the alternative interpretations at this point. Both of the first two arcs make Super Saiyan God's strength out to be an enormous deal -- it's specifically given its own term in the series after BoG ("God level") and even in RoF, the narrator makes it sound like it was an accomplishment for Super Saiyan Blue to surpass Super Saiyan God, which certainly wouldn't mesh with the idea that ordinary yellow Super Saiyan forms would increase Goku's already-godly base strength 50 times over and beyond -- and yet despite that, almost none of these other characters are ever acknowledged to be in this tier of strength. Vegeta complains about Cabba being a weakling, Piccolo managed to put up a fight against Frost, Gohan is suggested to have lost his "Ultimate" strength but can somehow compete with Goku, the list goes on. The most damning thing of all though is the myriad of completely baseless assumptions one would have to adopt for this to be true, like some of the rather concrete statements Beerus made during BoG being "bluffs" even though he was never once implied to lie about them.

Ultimately none of this makes any sense, so the best angle to approach it from is constructing an authorial-based analysis that would seek to interpret these scenes as Toei intended to convey them to the viewer. Given some of the manga's recent implications about how Super Saiyan Blue works in addition to fighters like Buu and the androids coming back into the mix, I just don't personally see the "only one godly base" theory as a valid interpretation of the series' power scale anymore. It might work for some people, but it doesn't really work for me and I think I've pretty thoroughly justified why that's the case. If Super proves me wrong at a later point, I'll gladly admit it.

With that said, I feel like I'm starting to wind down on this discussion because there's really not much left to say until we see more of the upcoming tournament. As someone else in this thread mentioned, there's a certain point where it just seems like we're beating a dead horse and I think we've clearly passed it.

[Noah]

...we can just look at Episode 75 as Goku just playing around after all or that it was just filler nonsense.

Well, you do use arguments like: Base Saiyans > SSJ3 Gotenks basing off on Potaufeu arc, which many think it was a nonsense filler as well, so that's a bit contradictory, eh?

[Bullza]

Well, you do use arguments like: Base Saiyans > SSJ3 Gotenks basing off on Potaufeu arc, which many think it was a nonsense filler as well, so that's a bit contradictory, eh?

It is a little bit but based on what happened in the Battle of Gods saga and the Resurrection F saga then by all means SSJ3 Gotenks being that far below them that they can't even make them budge is exactly how we all figured a fight like that should go.

SSJ3 Gotenks would have been considerably weaker than Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta and Base Vegeta was hugely more powerful than that.

[ekrolo2]

Given the Hit arc implying Goku's improvement of over 10 times from the U6 tourney in roughly the span of a year, I think we can use this as a good way to gauge Black's ceiling of power after which he can't get any more monstrous boosts.

It would also help solidify the implication that Black's Rose multiplier is probably a great deal smaller than Blue's because his higher base means he hits this maximum ceiling with a much smaller multiplier.

[omaro34]

I would assume this Basil character isn't very strong. Probably between SSj2 and SSJ3 since he can throw around Buu a bit.

[Ki Breaker]

I would assume this Basil character isn't very strong. Probably between SSj2 and SSJ3 since he can throw around Buu a bit.

Buu isn't doing anything at all, he is just standing there, him getting thrown around like that dosen't gauge Basil's strength, only when buu attacks and we see how Basil fares against him is when we get to see how strong Basil is

[namekiansaiyan]

I would assume this Basil character isn't very strong. Probably between SSj2 and SSJ3 since he can throw around Buu a bit.

Buu isn't doing anything at all, he is just standing there, him getting thrown around like that dosen't gauge Basil's strength, only when buu attacks and we see how Basil fares against him is when we get to see how strong Basil is

Fights involving Buu probably will probably not be focused on power most of the time.

[Hugo Boss]

You piqued my interest, so I've rewatched the fight myself. Is it when Freeza said Goku was stronger than before because, after all, he had defeated Majin Buu? Or was it something else that I missed?

The subs are a bit off on this part. Sometime ago I asked what Freeza said in the Fact Checker thread and Adamant answered that, actually, Freeza told he knew Goku defeated Majin Boo but he wasn't expecting him to be that strong. So, Goku's strength exceeded Freeza's expectations.

I feel like I'm starting to wind down on this discussion because there's really not much left to say until we see more of the upcoming tournament. As someone else in this thread mentioned, there's a certain point where it just seems like we're beating a dead horse and I think we've clearly passed it.

You are right. It's better to let it go.

[Kaboom]

A little late, but... HeroR and pacz360, please rein in the attitudes a bit when discussing this stuff with your peers. The ultimate bottom line is that Dragon Ball Super's power-scaling is a total mess, especially in the anime version, and the whole thing is hardly worth telling people to go "cry me a river" or label their theories "bullshit."

[HeroR]

A little late, but... HeroR and pacz360, please rein in the attitudes a bit when discussing this stuff with your peers. The ultimate bottom line is that Dragon Ball Super's power-scaling is a total mess, especially in the anime version, and the whole thing is hardly worth telling people to go "cry me a river" or label their theories "bullshit."

I personally have no problem following Super's power scaling, so it isn't mess to me.

[pacz360]

A little late, but... HeroR and pacz360, please rein in the attitudes a bit when discussing this stuff with your peers. The ultimate bottom line is that Dragon Ball Super's power-scaling is a total mess, especially in the anime version, and the whole thing is hardly worth telling people to go "cry me a river" or label their theories "bullshit."

Alright I'll rein a bit mate

[ChiefWamsutta]

The introduction back of Super Saiyan 1, 2, and 3 makes me think that they don't want SS1 to be at SSGod level anymore. It's so confusing because what even WAS his Super Saiyan form in Ep. 14 in outer space versus Beerus.

What would we qualify that as to keep consistency?

I'm not sure what to believe.

[IKevinX]

At first I was gonna create a new topic but I think it's better to get it here instead of getting removed. I wanted to reopen the Goku Black debate

Click me


I believe I've found a way to make sense of Black's power by uniting what we were told by the anime and the manga, as weird as it sounds.

True they have great divergences in story telling but when analysing closely we are able to notice the similarities between both medias. The video[link], explains a lot better [though robot voice](not to mention visually) but I will try to sumarize over here.
My apologies as english isn't my first language. (Am getting better though)

We have Black vs SSJ2 Goku in the anime and vs SSJ2/B Vegeta in the manga. After this first fight, when Black receives a "Zenkai", via (breathing[anime] or via Zamasu healing), he was able to stand up to SSB Vegeta. (Though in the anime it was more subtle)

He only entered SS Rosé form after fighting SSB Vegeta (both versions)

What created major confusion was his regular SSJ transformation. Given what we saw, Black's power skyrocketed with his "zenkai" on both versions. He went from "SSJ2,SSJ3" tier (Since SSJ2 Vegeta states that Trunks cannot defeat Black but Goku/Vegeta can) to beyond SSJ God tier (Against SSB Vegeta). Making his Base form and SSJ form similar to Goku's Base/SSJ levels when fighting Beerus in the BOG movie.But since this Goku was from further in the future he was able to match SSB's Vegeta with his "SSJ".

Which is also why I believe the anime chose to scratch his SSJ golden form since it would only raise further questions for what became a very small power difference. (Though thats never the case I guess)

By Friday we will probably get the leak for the manga chapter of this month, but since Black is already Rosé, I think it won't change the topic I tried to bring here.

What do you think?

[The gr]

Nice video kevin^^.So is Goku black ssj2 manga the most op transformation I mean he was owning ssgss Vegeta, a Vegeta that is way stronger than golden frieza,dang that's impressive for a dang ssj2 form. I'm hating this thrend for the ssj2 form being op

[IKevinX]

Nice video kevin^^.So is Goku black ssj2 manga the most op transformation I mean he was owning ssgss Vegeta, a Vegeta that is way stronger than golden frieza,dang that's impressive for a dang ssj2 form. I'm hating this thrend for the ssj2 form being op

Not really.

What I tried to say is that Black SSJ1/2 [Pre Zenkai] had a powerlevel inbetween SSJ2 Trunks and SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta.
And after he got the zenkai from the SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta fight. He skyrocketed to SSJ God level. His Base and SSJ forms (yellow) became the same as Goku's God levels (Base/SSJ) from when he was fighting Beerus.
And that is also why his boost to SSJ Rosé isn't that big. Since That SSJ Goku that fought Beerus wasn't that much weaker from SSJ Blue. Same thing.


But thanks. your comment means a lot.

[The gr]

Nice video kevin^^.So is Goku black ssj2 manga the most op transformation I mean he was owning ssgss Vegeta, a Vegeta that is way stronger than golden frieza,dang that's impressive for a dang ssj2 form. I'm hating this thrend for the ssj2 form being op

Not really.

What I tried to say is that Black SSJ1/2 [Pre Zenkai] had a powerlevel inbetween SSJ2 Trunks and SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta.
And after he got the zenkai from the SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta fight. He skyrocketed to SSJ God level. His Base and SSJ forms (yellow) became the same as Goku's God levels (Base/SSJ) from when he was fighting Beerus.
And that is also why his boost to SSJ Rosé isn't that big. Since That SSJ Goku that fought Beerus wasn't that much weaker from SSJ Blue. Same thing.


But thanks. your comment means a lot.

so did I got this detail wrong,when he was fighting Goku black,Vegeta was at full power when he ate that senzu and it didn't nothing to Goku black at ssj2

[Bullza]

What would we qualify that as to keep consistency?

I don't know what you could say about that. By all accounts I really do think that the the anime tried to portray Super Saiyan and then Base Goku as being as stronger than Super Saiyan God to match what was established in the movies.

That still seemed to apply during the Copy Water saga apparently.

If something has changed since then and they've done a silent retcon of his power then I don't know how that could be consistent but they might not have at all.

At the moment whether Base Goku is stronger than God or Super Saiyan 3 Goku is weaker than God you couldn't really give a definite answer to and that's where all the confusion is coming from.

The manga says God > SSJ3. The anime at one point had SSJ > God. Is that still the case or have they changed it? Who knows anymore.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I've been working on a list of power levels in DBS on and off for a couple of weeks. I've finished through the Champa arc, with the exception of one snafu around first-form Frieza beating up Gohan. I'd like some constructive criticism on it, since it's the first power level thingy I've ever done. If you want a place to start picking it apart, I'd suggest Frost—my analysis of his power relative to Goku's and Piccolo's is critical to placing the "god-tier" characters relative to the other characters.