Is Akira Toriyama trying to make us hate Goku?

[TheMathemagician]

I disagree with people who say that Goku was always selfish throughout the series. That may be true, but at least there were some moments where he cared about others (e.g. Goku's sacrifice in Cell saga) and made himself aware of what is at stake and gained pride in his bloodline(e.g. his character development in the Frieza saga). In Super, they just potray him to be as retarded as possible with no common sense whatsoever.

And the fact that Goku never kissed almost ruined some of his character qualities for me. I swear to god.

Again, there was no caring with sparing Vegeta. Zero sense or logic in sparing Vegeta's life. He really isn't any different besides some of his aspects being exaggerated, which can piss people off.

He wasn't "not caring"... he acknowledged it was a selfish decision and evenot regretted it later on.

Him regretting what he did later on doesn't really change the fact that's no worse than what he's doing here.

[HeroR]

Him regretting what he did later on doesn't really change the fact that's no worse than what he's doing here.

Honestly, I think the most selfish and stupidest thing he has ever done was him not using Super Saiyan 3 to beat up Vegeta. This guy literally murdered thousands of people in a stadium where his family and friends were. As far as he knew, Vegeta could of killed his wife or Bulma, all to egg him to fight. Then, instead of being the shit out of him, he fights Vegeta as an equal to 'save his pride' and probably to get a good fight out of Vegeta. Seriously, the hell. There is no excuse for that. Even with Super Saiyan 3's time limit, he could have taking Vegeta out in seconds, so he wouldn't wasted that much time. Awakening Buu was just the topping of this really selfish decision. To make it worse, this is never brought up in-universe, except by Vegeta complaining about how he died for nothing. Of all people to call this action out, it shouldn't be Vegeta.

[TekTheNinja]

The whole idea of, "Goku was always like this" is entirely false. You guys are fooling yourselves. The Goku of DB and DBZ was not this despicable at all. He was actually a likable character for the most part.

It doesn't upset me so much as make me worry about Gokû's safety and the safety of those around him.

Why does Goku being an asshole make you worry for his safety? That makes no sense. If anything it shuld make you worry less about his well-being.

[TheMathemagician]

Him regretting what he did later on doesn't really change the fact that's no worse than what he's doing here.

Honestly, I think the most selfish and stupidest thing he has ever done was him not using Super Saiyan 3 to beat up Vegeta. This guy literally murdered thousands of people in a stadium where his family and friends were. As far as he knew, Vegeta could of killed his wife or Bulma, all to egg him to fight. Then, instead of being the shit out of him, he fights Vegeta as an equal to 'save his pride' and probably to get a good fight out of Vegeta. Seriously, the hell. There is no excuse for that. Even with Super Saiyan 3's time limit, he could have taking Vegeta out in seconds, so he wouldn't wasted that much time. Awakening Buu was just the topping of this really selfish decision. To make it worse, this is never brought up in-universe, except by Vegeta complaining about how he died for nothing. Of all people to call this action out, it shouldn't be Vegeta.

Yeah, that's pretty bad, or what about how he wanted to be fair and give Pure Boo a fighting chance, when the dude just straight up murdered your children, friends, and blew up the earth. Willingly choosing not to fuse as well to ensure a victory.

The whole idea of, "Goku was always like this" is entirely false. You guys are fooling yourselves. The Goku of DB and DBZ was not this despicable at all. He was actually a likable character for the most part.

It doesn't upset me so much as make me worry about Gokû's safety and the safety of those around him.

Why does Goku being an asshole make you worry for his safety? That makes no sense. If anything it shuld make you worry less about his well-being.

It actually really isn't false. Manga Goku was literally this "despicable". His actions here aren't any worse than what he did in the Z portion of the manga.

[HeroR]

Yeah, that's pretty bad, or what about how he wanted to be fair and give Pure Boo a fighting chance, when the dude just straight up murdered your children, friends, and blew up the earth. Willingly choosing not to fuse as well to ensure a victory.

As bad as that was, Vegetto wasn't going to happen since Vegeta already said hell to the no.

Which is funny because people say Vegeta is now less selfish than Goku, yet in the Future Trunks Saga, Goku wanted to fused to beat Merged Zamasu, putting his pride aside, while Vegeta was still in the, 'oh hell no' state. And to note, he put aside his pride against to summon Zen'o for help once it became clear he couldn't do jack against bodiless Merged Zamasu.

[Draconic]

The big problems I have with Super's portrayal are the downright out of character stupid moments, like not realizing he's not actually fighting Monaka, falling on his ass, forgetting the Senzu while taking a shit etc. Yes, Goku is not the most well mannered, well educated guy in the world and neither the brightest tool in the shed, but he's not a fucking retard. It's cheap comedy and it's not that funny either. But I can give a pass to the flanderization because Super is also intended for a new audience and I think it's better at least they be subjected to Goku's true personality, even if greatly overblown.

How is someone falling on their ass OoC? Seriously you people are really stretching now. Also forget things when you put them down for a second to do something is quite common actually. I highly doubt anyone has gone throughout life without doing that. Also Goku forgot Senzu's yeah well in the Buu arc he forgot his sons when the Earth blew up so....

As I said, it's cheap comedy made at the expense of the charcter. If Goku fell on his ass in Z when arriving on Namek something would feel off. Well, it's the same fucking thing. It's out of character because we see him in the same situations before Super and he's never treated like the butt of the joke. Sure, there's jokes surrounding him and his immaturity or lack of education, but they never undermine the character. In Super Goku could shit his pants while fighting in the tournament and it wouldn't feel out of place. If at any point prior (except maybe GT) he would've shat his pants it wouldn't feel normal at all.

There are a lot of jokes that play on Goku's character well enough: jumping trough the wall when he hears Vegeta is out with Whis, faking a punch from Mr Satan to get rid of ChChi, grabbing the Galactic King's dick, repaying Beerus with a bop on the head and a karate chop etc.

If you don't see any discrepancies between the moments I mentioned and other comedy moments involving Goku not just in the prior shows but even Super itself, I am not sure what to tell you.

Sure, the fandom tends to also blow them out of proportion like they do everything. I mean out of the long ass post I've made you just had to quote that final paragraph.

[Soppa Saia People]

My biggest problem with him in Super is that, he's fucking annoying. Goku in the Manga almost always acted serious, in serious moments. I feel like if we had this Goku throughout the series, he would fight Raditz, not save his son, but because it'd be fun to fight.

[TheMathemagician]

Yeah, that's pretty bad, or what about how he wanted to be fair and give Pure Boo a fighting chance, when the dude just straight up murdered your children, friends, and blew up the earth. Willingly choosing not to fuse as well to ensure a victory.

As bad as that was, Vegetto wasn't going to happen since Vegeta already said hell to the no.

Which is funny because people say Vegeta is now less selfish than Goku, yet in the Future Trunks Saga, Goku wanted to fused to beat Merged Zamasu, putting his pride aside, while Vegeta was still in the, 'oh hell no' state. And to note, he put aside his pride against to summon Zen'o for help once it became clear he couldn't do jack against bodiless Merged Zamasu.

That too. Veggie is certainly respectable nowadays, but nothing he's done makes him any more considerate for the world's sake than Goku.

[gohan_black]

i still dont understand how goku can ride the nimbus. he is a little prick who would sacrifice the entire universe just to have fun.

It's not like Goku traded his Universe for a quick fix of adrenaline. He prompted a competition not knowing the people running the competition would make it more or less a death match. Not saying goku doesn't share some of the blame but Goku had no impure intention with his request.

what about his ssj3 transformations who destroyed buildings and such

[SansrivaaL]

TBH I didnt like most of Goku's stupidity in the beginning of Black arc, the bastard giggled while talking with Black (he knows that guy killed future Bulma, even gave Trunks PTSD) that was a dumb and stupid move that shouldnt have happened.
While in this arc it portrays exactly why I love Goku and what makes him different from all the cliche shonen protagonists, the way he only cares about fighting strong people that was shown to him not giving a fck about the other universe at risk so long as his universe isnt the one to go (at least thats how I saw it when he said "yeah, I'll take responsibility for this, we will win.") it isnt shown that he's fighting for them, rather fighting for his own selfish reasons while saving them in the process, Super has never grasped Goku's personality like the way they did now, I just hope they keep it up, by far 2eps in they're nailing Goku's character.

[Boo Machine]

i still dont understand how goku can ride the nimbus. he is a little prick who would sacrifice the entire universe just to have fun.

It's not like Goku traded his Universe for a quick fix of adrenaline. He prompted a competition not knowing the people running the competition would make it more or less a death match. Not saying goku doesn't share some of the blame but Goku had no impure intention with his request.

what about his ssj3 transformations who destroyed buildings and such

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that was anime only. Something they did to sell the scene .

But even if it wasn't then, again, Goku didn't have any impure intentions when he did that. It's his fault they were knocked down but he didn't transform for the sole purpose of destroying buildings and ruining peoples day. Just an unfortunate side affect of being epic.

[LunarMoon]

I feel like if we had this Goku throughout the series, he would fight Raditz, not save his son, but because it'd be fun to fight.

If we had this Goku throughout the series, he wouldn't have needed to kidnap Gohan in the first place because Goku would have taken Raditz up on his offer.

[HeroR]

I feel like if we had this Goku throughout the series, he would fight Raditz, not save his son, but because it'd be fun to fight.

If we had this Goku throughout the series, he wouldn't have needed to kidnap Gohan in the first place because he would have taken Raditz up on his offer.

Oh come now. Goku enjoys fighting, but not wiping out civilizations. If anything, he would fight Raditz for trying to boss him around. And Super Goku is the same person who was going to kill Black for what he did to his family, something that Freeza blowing up Krillin couldn't do.

But hey, who am I to interrupt the sociopath Goku narrative.

[PsionicWarrior]

My biggest problem with him in Super is that, he's fucking annoying.

Well said.

Back in the days of Z, on serious moments, everyone was waiting for Goku to speak, people used to respect him for more than fighting, and rightfully so. Now everytime he's saying something you know it's going to be for comical effect and none of the crew is taking him serious anymore.

I don't think he should be all heroic all the time, but yeah if he could stop acting so stupid on every occasion it'd be great.

I feel some slight improvement, but we're not there yet.

[Lord Beerus]

Him regretting what he did later on doesn't really change the fact that's no worse than what he's doing here.

Honestly, I think the most selfish and stupidest thing he has ever done was him not using Super Saiyan 3 to beat up Vegeta. This guy literally murdered thousands of people in a stadium where his family and friends were. As far as he knew, Vegeta could of killed his wife or Bulma, all to egg him to fight. Then, instead of being the shit out of him, he fights Vegeta as an equal to 'save his pride' and probably to get a good fight out of Vegeta. Seriously, the hell. There is no excuse for that. Even with Super Saiyan 3's time limit, he could have taking Vegeta out in seconds, so he wouldn't wasted that much time. Awakening Buu was just the topping of this really selfish decision. To make it worse, this is never brought up in-universe, except by Vegeta complaining about how he died for nothing. Of all people to call this action out, it shouldn't be Vegeta.

Yeah, that's pretty bad, or what about how he wanted to be fair and give Pure Boo a fighting chance, when the dude just straight up murdered your children, friends, and blew up the earth. Willingly choosing not to fuse as well to ensure a victory.

I still think nothing will ever top Goku giving Cell a senzu. There's just no justification for that at all. Thank God Piccolo had the balls to call out Goku on the bullshit he was pulling in the Cell Games or Goku would never would have felt any kind of guilt or regret for what he did. His stunts in the Majin Boo arc are also really bad and selfish, but that moment takes the cake for me. It was stupid, selfish and reckless. Goku acting like a blood knight asshole at his worst.

[Beyond]

The execution of his mistakes makes a lot difference. In Z when he made mistakes he was somewhat serious about it. When he spared Vegeta and Piccolo. It didn't feel like it was meant to be funny. I can't say the same thing about this whole onmi king tourny, or all the weird things he did in the black arc. Goku always been this way but the scale keeps going up and just because it's consistent doesn't mean it doesn't wear on you every time it happens. He could stand to lose some of that naivete.

[Lord Beerus]

The execution of his mistakes makes a lot difference. In Z when he made mistakes he was somewhat serious about it. When he spared Vegeta and Piccolo. It didn't feel like it was meant to be funny. I can't say the same thing about this whole onmi king tourny, or all the weird things he did in the black arc. Goku always been this way but the scale keeps going up and just because it's consistent doesn't mean it doesn't wear on you every time it happens. He could stand to lose some of that naivete.

I distinctly remember the moment he throw the Potara earring at Gohan only to miss by about five feet, in a moment when Gohan was beaten half to death and Super Boo was on the verge of winning, as something that was immediately played of as a joke, despite the seriousness of the scenario.

[HeroR]

The execution of his mistakes makes a lot difference. In Z when he made mistakes he was somewhat serious about it. When he spared Vegeta and Piccolo. It didn't feel like it was meant to be funny. I can't say the same thing about this whole onmi king tourny, or all the weird things he did in the black arc. Goku always been this way but the scale keeps going up and just because it's consistent doesn't mean it doesn't wear on you every time it happens. He could stand to lose some of that naivete.

I distinctly remember the moment he throw the Potara earring at Gohan only to miss by about five feet, in a moment when Gohan was beaten half to death and Super Boo was on the verge of winning, as something that was immediately played of as a joke, despite the seriousness of the scenario.

Or after the Earth got blown up by Kid Buu, killing the remaining characters, and we got all of Mr. Satan's antics, believing that he was dreaming and dropping off a cliff (yes, that in the manga).

And Ginyu changing bodies with Goku was mostly played for laughs, despite Goku being stuck in a mortally wounded body.

Also, when Goku spared Piccolo, he was smiling all happy with himself and then Chi-Chi ran up to him starting hugging him, much to Goku's horror.

[SsjCookie]

He annoys me....BIG time.
This upcoming arc will be souring fast when all the other competitors find out about the "losers die" rule.
So no matter what he does in this arc, he's DEFINITELY not a hero in this one.

So yeah, I REALLY don't like him at the moment.

[Basaku]

And he's doing fantastic job with it, never before I was so tired of and over Goku as with Super.